I believe 98mm is the magic number...
I'm going to go with ninety-nine and forty-four one hundredths.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Could it be more of "100 is a scary number, but 98...not so much".
On top of the 98's it looks like a lot of companies are doing an early rise, low tail 105ish.
I just watched a video of Jason Levinthal from Line. Pretty much echoing my reasoning for going to a 98. Interesting to see them go to a sidewall/cap hybrid build along the lines of what Atomic started doing.
DPS's latest creation. Convex bases. A little rocker
. Clearly a powder tool, but i'm sure someone her will make some comment regarding iced groomer, crud, bump performance. And the ever popular "in the powder, not on the powder" line.
How about the Salomon BBR! check it out, talk about weird, but intriguing.
Yeah I saw them too..........Really interesting time we're living in........in ski history that is.
So.....I've been listening to sales intros at SIA for two days now and have seen most of the major ski brands and talked to many of the project managers. The 98mm width is certainly not magic but apparently the marketers think it is as there is a common theme from many of these companies.
That theme being..........(italics are marketer speak in paraphrase)
"There will of course be exceptions, but we feel that 98mm is the widest width that will see common use as everyday skis in the west. We also think that this ski width should offer"..............
Here is where the variations come in.
Marketer (A) says.............."excellent grip and groomer performance and thus should be fairly stiff and won't need rocker at all or at most, very little"
Marketer (B) says..............."really great soft snow performance, and thus our ski is softer and has the larger rocker you see here."
So....whichever side of this you come down on....there are plenty of options in several directions.
SJ
Bringing World Cup caliber ski equipment and service to all skiers - from pro ski racers to everyday all mountain skiers and into the...
98 is the new 88 which was after 78 was the width that replaced 68 being the optimum width for an all mountain ski.
98 is the new 88 which was after 78 was the width that replaced 68 being the optimum width for an all mountain ski.
Now the question is: Are skis like jeans, where designers have to constantly keep shifting the shape and fit so we'll have to constantly keep buying new pairs, and we have to change our bodies to fit the formula? Or are skis like aircraft, where designers have to work with physical constraints and optima for particular missions? If former, expect that 108 is gonna be the new 98, and carving will go the way of Wedlin. If latter, assume Back To The Future; 88's will become the new 98's since 98's are just too slow edge to edge.
So next month or year it will be 108 ?
We all should buy 128s now and put them into a mental spin out.
So how much of that 68-78-88-98 march was inertia ("I cannot believe this wide ski can work for all-mountain use"), and how much was the advancement in ski materials, construction, etc, that can make a wide ski that is still torsionally stiff to hold a good edge? 
BTW, Jim, Phil- thanks for updates from SIA, always interesting to hear your take on things.
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Probably most of the shift has been marketing driven. The great mass of skiers out there have probably not really been clamoring for this. However, the Marketers say.........we should make this...........then the publicity engine says you should buy this..........and eventually, folks do. (at least to an extent)
As far as technology goes, it's always been there. It's easy enough to build stiff wide skis, that has been done for years. The problem has been to make a stiff, wide ski that is skiable for 90% of the market. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that a wide ski that is stiff torsionally is over the head of most skiers and while they may buy them and think they like them, they are often working too hard or stuggling with turn release etc. Something a little softer is probably better for most folks.
So.............the problem has not been technology at all, it has been refinement and that takes a heck of a lot more time and the initial build. At this point one will be able to buy a great 98mm ski with no rise (Nordica Enforcer) a bit of tip rise (Rossi Experience) a bit of tip and tail (Blizzi Bonafide) or significant tip and tail (Fischer Watea).
You will also be able to get versions of this width with almost any flex you desire, with or without metal, and with about any amount or type of metal you want.
While I can't really predict what the adverts will tout nor what the magazines will say........it's pretty clear that this is now a foundation category from the marketing perspective. I also suspect that it's no accident that there are a lot of good 88's as well and these will get the spin on the east side.
SJ
Bringing World Cup caliber ski equipment and service to all skiers - from pro ski racers to everyday all mountain skiers and into the...
With an elegant economy of words Phill sums up the 'new" optimum "all mountain" width.
Well said.
98? I thought the "new" all mountain ski was 105? 
funny thing is I have far more days on my bennny's than my Ones.... And that's a good thing!
Quote:
98 is the new 88 which was after 78 was the width that replaced 68 being the optimum width for an all mountain ski.
My "all mountain" is 115 waist.
98? I thought the "new" all mountain ski was 105?
funny thing is I have far more days on my bennny's than my Ones.... And that's a good thing!
Must be nice. I have been skiing East-Coast ice for the past 3 weeks. Not supposed to happen in Oregon. Blizzi 8.1's are getting tons of use: my MX108's and Huge's have barely seen snow (the 8.1's do rip on hard snow, glad to have them around).
All 2013's on sale right now at Dawgcatching.com. Get an extra 10% off with off10fb2013 which is valid only for epicski members.
It was........last week. The 98's are newer and you are now badly out of date. The 105's are now the new big mountain ski except @ Squawwywood where they are carvers.
SJ
Bringing World Cup caliber ski equipment and service to all skiers - from pro ski racers to everyday all mountain skiers and into the...
This is interesting, and obviously, there is no one right answer as to what is the "best" all-mountain width. Too many factors with regards to local conditions and skier suitability.
We deal with 2 groups of skiers on a daily basis: 1st group is Epicski people looking to purchase product. They tend to ski more than average (15+ days a year), are likely better skiers than average, have more passion for the sport (obviously, if they are posting on an internet forum), and likely have the skills to go off-piste. Their needs are fairly aligned with the "98mm waist width" conversation we are having here, especially if they 1) ski out West 2) ski mostly off-piste 3) are fairly skilled skiers 4) ski with friends at the same skill level 5) are looking for a very "middle of the road" ski in that it does everything quite well. Enough float for most snow conditions, enough edge hold on hard snow, enough forgiveness for challenging terrain, quick enough for bumps, decent on groomers. These skis tend to check all the boxes at least somewhat, which is the true definition of an all-mountain ski. Obviously, there are some really good carvers in that waist width, and some more off-piste specific skis too.
Group 2 that I deal with, mostly in-store, is quite different. 1) ski 3-6 days a year 2) typically lower skill level, lower fitness 3) ski with family members on vacation 4) tend to be fair weather skiers 5) stick to groomers. This group's needs are nothing like the first group's needs; obviously. Our main business with this group is rentals and demos: and far and away are most popular skis are between 80-94mm underfoot. In fact, we always put the skis that we shop guys want to ski (mainly the bigger stuff) into the fleet as well, and it hardly ever goes out; show renters, say an Olympus, even on a new snow day, and they will respond "I am skiing with my kids on Marshmallow; what do I need that monster ski for?" and they take a Sultan 80 instead. On the biggest day of the year so far, I had exactly 2 skis that didn't rent out, and they were the 2 I thought for sure would be on the hill: Huge Rocker and Olympus. Made no sense to me, but again, the interests of the hardcore skier and the weekend "fun day outdoors in the sun" crowd aren't always aligned.
So, hopefully the industry continues to make skis for both groups. At least in our shop, there are many more of the latter than the former. I bet it runs 10-1 in preferences in the demo fleet.
I think the 98mm width makes a lot of sense for many, but isn't going to get it done for everyone. Bigger guys may want a 105-115, lightweights like me may want something in the high 80's. Fast groomer skiers are going to appreciate the stiffer, aggressive nature and narrower width of a groomer ski, and serious off-piste skiers will want softer tips, more forgiving flex, and skis that perform in crappy snow. Bump skiers are going to need a hybrid. The great thing is that there is, and will continue to be (hopefully), good skis to meet everyone's needs, with the understanding that all skis are a compromise, and the only true way to address that for the gear geek (or whore) is to ski a quiver.
It would be great if the industry just had the confidence to build the best skis they could, instead of all copying each other and saying the ski has to be 98mm underfoot. Figure out what works; who cares if the ski is 95, 98, 101, 105mm? People are going to ski it and buy it because it is a good ski, not because it says 98 or 101mm in width. If you are concerned about what the other guy in the lift line thinks of your skis, it might be better to spend your mental energies on more productive endeavors. Leave that worrying about what others think about you to the attractive blonde in stretch ski pants.
As for where the industry is going in the future: probably whatever they feel will be new and sell. But really, who buys a ski based on a marketing pitch and not reliable 2nd-hand info or a test drive? Maybe I am just cynical and pretty oblivious to marketing and advertising; not necessarily a bad thing. Nothing is worse than plunking down hard-earned cash for a product that doesn't live up to the hype....the great thing is that there are lots of superb skis out there, and selection has never been better for finding a ski for a targeted style and type of skiing. With that said, there were a lot of good skis this year too, and they didn't become magically obsolete overnight. The most funny thing at ski shows is listening to how great a ski lineup or model is (according to the rep) and then coming back the next year, listening to the same rep bag on last year's model (the one he previously was hyping) as a ski they just didn't get right, had issues or complaints of some sort, even when they do a 180 and make a ski that they said was a silly idea the prior year. I can understand small, constant improvements that are constantly going on, but speaking as if every prior model is somehow bunk just doesn't seem to hold water.
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want to be seen on crud/chop/backside skis.
Kinda how sucky skiers used to want to purchase race boots and race skis, just to get their ass handed to them, for the privilege of looking cool in the lift line? Times haven't changed at all....skiing, for some, will always be an ego-driven image activity. The great part about it: all the cool gear in the world can't buy you a turn. Just like seeing bikes in Bend, almost exclusively on top of bike racks on cars, yet when I hit the trail for a 5-hour, 55 mile loop, I see only a handful of riders. Yet I ride by the Brewery on my way home, and there it is: a whole line of cars, with (shiny) expensive full suspension bikes up there, looking like they haven't seen more than 20 miles of trail use all season. They do get alot of miles registered on the GPS though, sitting on top of the car all summer, giving that bike owner street cred to his non-riding buddies who envy his out-doorsy ruggedness.
BTW, some of us actually do ride in Bend, just a little bit....
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Story of my life bro' I will be on my "back in style" 98 One's today though..... so does that make me Cool? 
It was........last week. The 98's are newer and you are now badly out of date. The 105's are now the new big mountain ski except @ Squawwywood where they are carvers.
SJ
The ski makers correctly visualize the skiing population as being mostly folks with one pr. of skis. In general, they view the Western US as one market, the Eastern US as another, and the rest of the world as something else again. The 98mm "category" has sprung from the well unbidden and it is important to note that the "category" itself is not about the width at all. This is about wider skis that mostly utilize powder technology in small doses or not at all. The ski makers view this as the proper way to serve the 50/50 skier in soft snow regions. Whether this is correct or not is a personal deal. BTW.....there are skis like the Sultan 94 that will still fit very well in this grouping so again.....it's not all about the width. The manufacturers have almost universally targeted the next width grouping (~~105-108mm) as having more powder technology and after that, the (~~115-118mm) grouping as having the whole kitchen sink.
It is interesting that this year we had four new 98mm double rise skis (S3, One, Slicer, Watea98). Next year I think there is only one more (Blizzi Bonafide). Every other maker has (I think) chosen to go flat tail or twin/kick but without real rise. It remains to be seen how it'll shake out.
SJ
Bringing World Cup caliber ski equipment and service to all skiers - from pro ski racers to everyday all mountain skiers and into the...
The ski makers correctly visualize the skiing population as being mostly folks with one pr. of skis. In general, they view the Western US as one market, the Eastern US as another, and the rest of the world as something else again. The 98mm "category" has sprung from the well unbidden and it is important to note that the "category" itself is not about the width at all. This is about wider skis that mostly utilize powder technology in small doses or not at all. The ski makers view this as the proper way to serve the 50/50 skier in soft snow regions. Whether this is correct or not is a personal deal. BTW.....there are skis like the Sultan 94 that will still fit very well in this grouping so again.....it's not all about the width. The manufacturers have almost universally targeted the next width grouping (~~105-108mm) as having more powder technology and after that, the (~~115-118mm) grouping as having the whole kitchen sink.
It is interesting that this year we had four new 98mm double rise skis (S3, One, Slicer, Watea98). Next year I think there is only one more (Blizzi Bonafide). Every other maker has (I think) chosen to go flat tail or twin/kick but without real rise. It remains to be seen how it'll shake out.
SJ
Good observations, and they really make sense. There is about as much reason to build a 115mm groomer ski as there is to build an 80mm powder ski. Especially with the width thing becoming less important, and other factors being looked at (flex, camber, different sidecut combos) it seems that everyone figured out that wider should equal more soft snow oriented skis. Sometimes, that wasn't always the case. I can remember skiing 105mm skis a few years ago that were as stiff as any race ski around and kind of sucked in soft snow.
My MX98 definitely skis slightly differently than the Slicer, Watea or The One; not sure the feel I prefer, but they are all solid. There is so little tail rocker/double rise on the latter 3 that it barely matters in the way they ski.
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It was........last week. The 98's are newer and you are now badly out of date. The 105's are now the new big mountain ski except @ Squawwywood where they are carvers.
SJ
No wonder I'm always getting strange looks on my Blizzard 8.7's
This is a really funny image. I've seen something suspiciously similar in the White Mountain region. Then I think about how many of the same folks I saw around the fireplace at my home mountain - typical 10 degree hardpack and flurries NE day, actually balmy by our standards - over a three hour span as I ate lunch, left, came back for mocha, and I wonder how many of them had seriously shiny skis sitting outside. Ironically, the biggest demographic seemed to be the 20-somethings. From the terrain park outfits and serious headphones, assume they were on twins or rockers. But hey, keeps bike and ski shops in business, no?
Interesting discussion. When I started out this year my main goal for the season (ski wise), was to replace my Head 88s for a new daily "east coast" driver. A few demos, some very good advice from this list, and mission accomplished via the purchase of a pair of Elan Apex (thanks to Dawgcatching).
Two weeks ago while in Jackson Hole (my first time there and found it to be an incredible place), my buddy and I decided to demo different skis each day (I know it was expensive but well worth it). And I managed to try out both the Kastle MX 98 and MX 108.
First the 108, liked this ski a lot. But I do have a pair of Goats (pre rocker), with very little miles on them so buying this would not have been very prudent.
But the 98, what a ski. At least for me, this would be a great east coast soft snow/powder ski. I mean yes, I do have the Goats, but I simply have not been able to take these out all that much in the couple of years I have had them because I just don't seem to be up north when the big storms roll in. Usually, my east coast powder days are 6 to 10 inches of new fluff. The 98 would at least for me, be much more realistic then a bigger ski and I would guess I would have many more days on them then I have had on my Goats (I would say that between the Elan Apex, and a pair of Kastle MX 98s, I would have most all conditions covered for what and how I ski here in the east (save for a few true hard snow strictly front side days - where I can pull out my old K2 Crossfires if needed).
Honestly, I was really impressed by how well the MX 98 skied in a variety of conditions, from fresh powder to chopped up crud. And I had thought, like many others, that a 98 waisted ski like this would simply be too close in performance to something from the 88 line, but after trying them out I have completely changed my opinion.
So maybe "98" becomes the new west coast daily driver but the new east coast powder ski? (at least for us mortals/flatlanders who don't live right around the corner from the mountain). Now, I just have to find the cash to pick up a pair - which, probably won't happen until next season so hopefully - they won't change these skis at all.
Interesting discussion. When I started out this year my main goal for the season (ski wise), was to replace my Head 88s for a new daily "east coast" driver. A few demos, some very good advice from this list, and mission accomplished via the purchase of a pair of Elan Apex (thanks to Dawgcatching).
Two weeks ago while in Jackson Hole (my first time there and found it to be an incredible place), my buddy and I decided to demo different skis each day (I know it was expensive but well worth it). And I managed to try out both the Kastle MX 98 and MX 108.
First the 108, liked this ski a lot. But I do have a pair of Goats (pre rocker), with very little miles on them so buying this would not have been very prudent.
But the 98, what a ski. At least for me, this would be a great east coast soft snow/powder ski. I mean yes, I do have the Goats, but I simply have not been able to take these out all that much in the couple of years I have had them because I just don't seem to be up north when the big storms roll in. Usually, my east coast powder days are 6 to 10 inches of new fluff. The 98 would at least for me, be much more realistic then a bigger ski and I would guess I would have many more days on them then I have had on my Goats (I would say that between the Elan Apex, and a pair of Kastle MX 98s, I would have most all conditions covered for what and how I ski here in the east (save for a few true hard snow strictly front side days - where I can pull out my old K2 Crossfires if needed).
Honestly, I was really impressed by how well the MX 98 skied in a variety of conditions, from fresh powder to chopped up crud. And I had thought, like many others, that a 98 waisted ski like this would simply be too close in performance to something from the 88 line, but after trying them out I have completely changed my opinion.
So maybe "98" becomes the new west coast daily driver but the new east coast powder ski? (at least for us mortals/flatlanders who don't live right around the corner from the mountain). Now, I just have to find the cash to pick up a pair - which, probably won't happen until next season so hopefully - they won't change these skis at all.
Bingo, if one could only have 1 ski, you probably nailed it pretty close for how and where I ski.
You would find last year's MX98 to be a bit different than the current model, much more like a "Wider Apex" than the current version, lacking metal and more aggressive feel of the old one.
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All of these changes explain why I will probably stick with my Nordica Nemesis (98 = magic number) for at least another year before I purchase a dedicated powder ski.
This past week was the first time all season I have skied on my Nordica Conquers (84 underfoot). The hardpack at Mammoth drove me to it, and I really enjoyed the narrower ski which was so quick to turn and so easy to carve.
However I continue to read of all the changes with great interest and a slight amount of lust.
Thanks for all the great information.
Do you think you could get one of those people with the slightly used bikes to sell me one on the cheap so they can upgrade to the newer model!!! A new one would look good on top of their uber-SUV.
Ty
want to be seen on crud/chop/backside skis.
Kinda how sucky skiers used to want to purchase race boots and race skis, just to get their ass handed to them, for the privilege of looking cool in the lift line? Times haven't changed at all....skiing, for some, will always be an ego-driven image activity. The great part about it: all the cool gear in the world can't buy you a turn. Just like seeing bikes in Bend, almost exclusively on top of bike racks on cars, yet when I hit the trail for a 5-hour, 55 mile loop, I see only a handful of riders. Yet I ride by the Brewery on my way home, and there it is: a whole line of cars, with (shiny) expensive full suspension bikes up there, looking like they haven't seen more than 20 miles of trail use all season. They do get alot of miles registered on the GPS though, sitting on top of the car all summer, giving that bike owner street cred to his non-riding buddies who envy his out-doorsy ruggedness.
BTW, some of us actually do ride in Bend, just a little bit....
Ha! I actually know a guy who purchased a new $6,000 ride, and because he feel is car was not adequate for transporting it, also purchased a Porsche Cayenne Turbo to go with it! What a bit of twisted logic.
Do you think you could get one of those people with the slightly used bikes to sell me one on the cheap so they can upgrade to the newer model!!! A new one would look good on top of their uber-SUV.
Ty
All 2013's on sale right now at Dawgcatching.com. Get an extra 10% off with off10fb2013 which is valid only for epicski members.
Just like seeing bikes in Bend, almost exclusively on top of bike racks on cars, yet when I hit the trail for a 5-hour, 55 mile loop, I see only a handful of riders. Yet I ride by the Brewery on my way home, and there it is: a whole line of cars, with (shiny) expensive full suspension bikes up there, looking like they haven't seen more than 20 miles of trail use all season. They do get alot of miles registered on the GPS though, sitting on top of the car all summer, giving that bike owner street cred to his non-riding buddies who envy his out-doorsy ruggedness.
BTW, some of us actually do ride in Bend, just a little bit....
That's one of the key lines....those of us that actually ride, tend to ride from home.
Interesting discussion. When I started out this year my main goal for the season (ski wise), was to replace my Head 88s for a new daily "east coast" driver. A few demos, some very good advice from this list, and mission accomplished via the purchase of a pair of Elan Apex (thanks to Dawgcatching).
Two weeks ago while in Jackson Hole (my first time there and found it to be an incredible place), my buddy and I decided to demo different skis each day (I know it was expensive but well worth it). And I managed to try out both the Kastle MX 98 and MX 108.
First the 108, liked this ski a lot. But I do have a pair of Goats (pre rocker), with very little miles on them so buying this would not have been very prudent.
But the 98, what a ski. At least for me, this would be a great east coast soft snow/powder ski. I mean yes, I do have the Goats, but I simply have not been able to take these out all that much in the couple of years I have had them because I just don't seem to be up north when the big storms roll in. Usually, my east coast powder days are 6 to 10 inches of new fluff. The 98 would at least for me, be much more realistic then a bigger ski and I would guess I would have many more days on them then I have had on my Goats (I would say that between the Elan Apex, and a pair of Kastle MX 98s, I would have most all conditions covered for what and how I ski here in the east (save for a few true hard snow strictly front side days - where I can pull out my old K2 Crossfires if needed).
Honestly, I was really impressed by how well the MX 98 skied in a variety of conditions, from fresh powder to chopped up crud. And I had thought, like many others, that a 98 waisted ski like this would simply be too close in performance to something from the 88 line, but after trying them out I have completely changed my opinion.
So maybe "98" becomes the new west coast daily driver but the new east coast powder ski? (at least for us mortals/flatlanders who don't live right around the corner from the mountain). Now, I just have to find the cash to pick up a pair - which, probably won't happen until next season so hopefully - they won't change these skis at all.
the thing is for east coast powder skiing the bigger you can go while still being passable on groomers is very desriable. Bigger skis ski quicker in woods where people can not go.
Also non rockered skis suck here because they simple dont let your slarve as well. I can ski powder, days after a storm because I can ski lines other people simply arent equiped to ski. I own a pair of 98 mm skis but my 111m katana make the 98mm skis feel like dead weight in as little as 3 -5 inches of snow.
its the chicken and the egg arguement i have shown alot of people around and watch them hack though the woods I can ski, because they simply dont own the right gear. Also alot of people dont ski powder on the east coast because their skis wont let them ski powder. I guess I dont want to see that change(more for me!) but really when I see people post how good say a kendo was in powder I just have to think how much it is not.
Ha! I actually know a guy who purchased a new $6,000 ride, and because he feel is car was not adequate for transporting it, also purchased a Porsche Cayenne Turbo to go with it! What a bit of twisted logic.
What was his previous ride? A 911?
Find the cure for ordinary - Squaw Valley
