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Killer 98's: 2011 Dynastar 6th Sense Slicer; Blizzard The One; Fischer Watea 98 - Page 2

post #31 of 54

Dawg - just wondering if you could give me a comparison between the Slicer and previous Big Trouble/6th Sense Big.  I have read some previous comparisons, but I'd really be interested in your opinion (or those of others).  My old Big Troubles are nearing retirement and the Slicer is not one I've been able to demo.  Given how much I love the old BTs, the Slicer is under serious consideration.

 

Thanks for any comparison info you can give me.

post #32 of 54

Dawg and others:

 

I got a chance to ski the One yesterday, in a 177cm length. (I'm 5-9, 170lbs) I had a few impressions that I didn't notice in your reviews and comments. I'd like to hear what you guys think, having skied it more.

Overall, it is a very solid quick ski as you say. But the front of the ski feels completely disconnected from the snow. It's solid enough that it carves fine, but it's a weird feeling.

The main thing that struck me is that when cruising along with speed, any sort of bump in the way would literally launch you in the air. For example, a new forming mogul late in the day on a groomer. These are the kind of bumps I would instinctively absorb on a "traditional" ski, but on these, take off! This struck me as disconcerting at best, dangerous at worst. Have you had this experience?

I think it's due to the stiff construction and rocker, so there's no front of the ski to absorb the energy of the bump, it just hits you. Unfortunately, the snow at Alpine Meadows yesterday was brutal, and we could only ski groomers, so I didn't have a chance to try these in crud or tracked up powder, where the rocker would likely help. Maybe in 3-d snow, the bounce factor wouldn't be an issue, but it sure was on harder snow.

post #33 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by squawbomber View Post

Dawg and others:

 

I got a chance to ski the One yesterday, in a 177cm length. (I'm 5-9, 170lbs) I had a few impressions that I didn't notice in your reviews and comments. I'd like to hear what you guys think, having skied it more.

Overall, it is a very solid quick ski as you say. But the front of the ski feels completely disconnected from the snow. It's solid enough that it carves fine, but it's a weird feeling.

The main thing that struck me is that when cruising along with speed, any sort of bump in the way would literally launch you in the air. For example, a new forming mogul late in the day on a groomer. These are the kind of bumps I would instinctively absorb on a "traditional" ski, but on these, take off! This struck me as disconcerting at best, dangerous at worst. Have you had this experience?

I think it's due to the stiff construction and rocker, so there's no front of the ski to absorb the energy of the bump, it just hits you. Unfortunately, the snow at Alpine Meadows yesterday was brutal, and we could only ski groomers, so I didn't have a chance to try these in crud or tracked up powder, where the rocker would likely help. Maybe in 3-d snow, the bounce factor wouldn't be an issue, but it sure was on harder snow.T

 

Today, on my MX98's, I had the same sensation (it was dust on crust, and by crust I mean asphalt).  That is a function of the softer tip and rocker, and honestly, this type of ski just isn't great in that kind of snow.  You need something stiffer; the MX88 I also skied was superior: It blasted through the dust, and held much better. Both The One and the MX98 seem more suited to overall softer conditions, as I would expect; they just don't have the beef on the re-freeze to hold that well, and seem to get bounced pretty easily.  I have also skied The One on that same kind of dust on cement, and didn't enjoy them much there either. That kind of challenging condition really requires some beef; my Magnum 8.1's were ripping around on it, and it was as if the little piles of snow weren't even there.  The MX98's were great where it was deep enough, but when I was hitting piles of fresh sitting on pure kevlar-vest snow, I was pinging around pretty good.  I got used to it, but the MX88 eliminated that completely. 

 

I think this is just a function of a ski that is meant for softer snow or lower speeds getting overpowered due to lack of stiffness and a little too much playfulness.  When I was cruising low-energy, it wasn't an issue, but dial up the speed and edge angle, and the stiffer skis definitely come into their own. The MX98 and The One are great in softer snow conditions, but in that stuff, it is better to have some beef strapped to your feet, IMO.  Skiing with a group of guys, all on bigger skis, and we all experienced it.  The guy in our group on JJ's was having to really step off the accelerator due to the same issue.  After a few runs, I got accustomed to the MX98's behavior, but never really warmed up to the feel, and would have swapped back to the MX88's had I been there the rest of the day.  On the + side, the MX98 was super fun in the 6+ of wind drift I could find; it is a ripping ski,  just not an ice skate.  The One holds at least as well, although I think the MX98 is a lot more stable, easier to initiate, and floatier at the tip. 

 

After skiing this list in the hardest snow I have ever seen off-piste at Bachelor over the past couple of weeks, I have to say that they all are biased toward soft snow.  As nothing on this list has metal, it really isn't a surprise that they aren't the grippiest, stoutest skis around.

post #34 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberto View Post

Dawg - just wondering if you could give me a comparison between the Slicer and previous Big Trouble/6th Sense Big.  I have read some previous comparisons, but I'd really be interested in your opinion (or those of others).  My old Big Troubles are nearing retirement and the Slicer is not one I've been able to demo.  Given how much I love the old BTs, the Slicer is under serious consideration.

 

Thanks for any comparison info you can give me.



It has been a long time since I have skied the BT.  The Slicer is the replacement model, FWIW, and it does ski well, only with rocker tip and tail and therefore going to have a bit different, but not overly different, feel.  Construction is quite similar.  When I see the regional rep in a week, I will ask him and see what his opinion is. I know he skied the BT as his everyday off-piste ski for about 2 years.

post #35 of 54

Somewhere on my wish list is for Dawg to get on a SkiLogic Chariot and see how it reviews with the competition.

 

Any chance of this happening?

post #36 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgcatching View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberto View Post

Dawg - just wondering if you could give me a comparison between the Slicer and previous Big Trouble/6th Sense Big.  I have read some previous comparisons, but I'd really be interested in your opinion (or those of others).  My old Big Troubles are nearing retirement and the Slicer is not one I've been able to demo.  Given how much I love the old BTs, the Slicer is under serious consideration.

 

Thanks for any comparison info you can give me.



It has been a long time since I have skied the BT.  The Slicer is the replacement model, FWIW, and it does ski well, only with rocker tip and tail and therefore going to have a bit different, but not overly different, feel.  Construction is quite similar.  When I see the regional rep in a week, I will ask him and see what his opinion is. I know he skied the BT as his everyday off-piste ski for about 2 years.

Thanks - I'd really appreciate that feedback!
 

post #37 of 54

SQUAW-

 

everything Dawg said, this is definitely a soft snow oriented ski, the ski itself is soft, its tip is very soft and the long run rocker is not designed to hookup on hard snow, but take that same ski and put it on a soft groomer and it's a stable, fun ski. Personally, I  bought it less for groomed but to noodle around on leftovers, trees and such where its been a blast to ski in up to a foot of powder (although I would rather have my bent chetlers at well before that point) .   I am just curious why you thought it was a ski for hard pack?

post #38 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post

SQUAW-

 

everything Dawg said, this is definitely a soft snow oriented ski, the ski itself is soft, its tip is very soft and the long run rocker is not designed to hookup on hard snow, but take that same ski and put it on a soft groomer and it's a stable, fun ski. Personally, I  bought it less for groomed but to noodle around on leftovers, trees and such where its been a blast to ski in up to a foot of powder (although I would rather have my bent chetlers at well before that point) .   I am just curious why you thought it was a ski for hard pack?

Hi Finn (and thanks Dawg for your response above),

 

Well, if you read the original review, it comes across as a "powerful carver" and so forth. The snow I was on was fine, just regular good groomed snow, with some bumps starting to form at the bottom of the run, the kind of run you want to haul ass down on your way to the lift. Dawg basically agrees with me in his comments above in response to my post. I think this is an important aspect to bring up, as it very much addresses the true versatility of the ski, and is an important aspect to consider. For example, my (gold) Gotamas would not exhibit that behavior at all. The new Head 84's I tried were just eating this stuff up. If I had bought this ski based on the original review thinking "one ski quiver," I think I would have been surprised, and not in a good way.

Keep in mind I have nothing against the ski, or Dawg's review, I just wanted to bring up an important characteristic that struck me when I tried it that I hadn't seen described, and that I thought anyone considering the ski should know about and should be discussed.

post #39 of 54

good point, really.  icon14.gif

post #40 of 54

Thanks Finn!

post #41 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by squawbomber View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post

SQUAW-

 

everything Dawg said, this is definitely a soft snow oriented ski, the ski itself is soft, its tip is very soft and the long run rocker is not designed to hookup on hard snow, but take that same ski and put it on a soft groomer and it's a stable, fun ski. Personally, I  bought it less for groomed but to noodle around on leftovers, trees and such where its been a blast to ski in up to a foot of powder (although I would rather have my bent chetlers at well before that point) .   I am just curious why you thought it was a ski for hard pack?

Hi Finn (and thanks Dawg for your response above),

 

Well, if you read the original review, it comes across as a "powerful carver" and so forth. The snow I was on was fine, just regular good groomed snow, with some bumps starting to form at the bottom of the run, the kind of run you want to haul ass down on your way to the lift. Dawg basically agrees with me in his comments above in response to my post. I think this is an important aspect to bring up, as it very much addresses the true versatility of the ski, and is an important aspect to consider. For example, my (gold) Gotamas would not exhibit that behavior at all. The new Head 84's I tried were just eating this stuff up. If I had bought this ski based on the original review thinking "one ski quiver," I think I would have been surprised, and not in a good way.

Keep in mind I have nothing against the ski, or Dawg's review, I just wanted to bring up an important characteristic that struck me when I tried it that I hadn't seen described, and that I thought anyone considering the ski should know about and should be discussed.

 

 

I decided to cut this short and start a new discussion thread in the Ski Gear forum, as I didn't want it to drift to OT.  But yes, I agree with your premise when speaking specifically about these skis.  It seems "all-mountain" is different to all people, depending on what and where they ski, and how they ski, as it should be. 


Edited by dawgcatching - 2/10/11 at 4:00pm
post #42 of 54

I'd be really curious to see how The One and the new Bonafide do back to back in the kind of conditions we're describing.  Based on the metal layers and the less rocker (or so it appears from the pictures) in the Bonafide, I'd expect it to do better in this kind of snow, but at the expense of some of the soft-snow playfulness.  The reviews so far of the Bonafide have said it's very easy to ski, but it's not clear to me yet if the big difference between it and The One is that the playful nature of The One is gone, replaced with a more serious feeling, better all-around ski.  Just sorta thinking out loud at this point, not sure if there's really any question here.

post #43 of 54

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I think you nailed it pretty well without even skiing the skis.  I did happen to ski the 2012 The One and Bonafide back-to-back and how you have them characterized is correct.

post #44 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaobrien6 View Post

I'd be really curious to see how The One and the new Bonafide do back to back in the kind of conditions we're describing.  Based on the metal layers and the less rocker (or so it appears from the pictures) in the Bonafide, I'd expect it to do better in this kind of snow, but at the expense of some of the soft-snow playfulness.  The reviews so far of the Bonafide have said it's very easy to ski, but it's not clear to me yet if the big difference between it and The One is that the playful nature of The One is gone, replaced with a more serious feeling, better all-around ski.  Just sorta thinking out loud at this point, not sure if there's really any question here.



I think The One would be the awesome for AT use or set up for Tele.  Light, fairly soft, easy to maneuver.  They should consider marketing it as such, especially with the versatile IQ setup, which gives the skier essentially 2 skis in one.  It seems to be marketed at the jibber crowd instead, which probably isn't that interested in Blizzard to begin with.  

post #45 of 54

Hi Dawg - I'm new here to Epic - so forgive me if this is out-of-line/the scope of your thread here.....

 

How does the Salomon Shogun stack up in this lineup? 

post #46 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgcatching View Post





I think The One would be the awesome for AT use or set up for Tele.  Light, fairly soft, easy to maneuver.  They should consider marketing it as such, especially with the versatile IQ setup, which gives the skier essentially 2 skis in one.  It seems to be marketed at the jibber crowd instead, which probably isn't that interested in Blizzard to begin with.  

 

Ordered the 1 monday w/ 2nd slider. Mine is going to be setup dual use dynafit and Look PX. Stoked on this quiver killer setup.
 

post #47 of 54

Bump since I'm bored and was reading through old reviews.

 

Dawg,

Did you get a chance to ski on the new Line Prophet 98 yet?  I'm curious how that compares to these guys.  I've now skied all 3 in this review, and liked all 3 but for different reasons.  Still a little unsure which one is for me, but I'm pretty sure my next ski purchase will come from this category (90's, slight rocker).  Part of my indecision is that I was only able to ski the 177 The One, and I'm pretty sure I'd want the 184 at my size.  Anyway, I hope to get on the Prophet 98 at some point next year to compare.

post #48 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaobrien6 View Post

Bump since I'm bored and was reading through old reviews.

 

Dawg,

Did you get a chance to ski on the new Line Prophet 98 yet?  I'm curious how that compares to these guys.  I've now skied all 3 in this review, and liked all 3 but for different reasons.  Still a little unsure which one is for me, but I'm pretty sure my next ski purchase will come from this category (90's, slight rocker).  Part of my indecision is that I was only able to ski the 177 The One, and I'm pretty sure I'd want the 184 at my size.  Anyway, I hope to get on the Prophet 98 at some point next year to compare.



Yeah, the P98 is a little heavier in feel than this group. Primarily because it has a metal laminate construction, or at least the feel of one. The ski I could most closely identify it with is the Elan Spire: they are very similar in feel.  Solid, stable, smooth, damp, confident, not a ton of energy.  Both are pretty good carvers too.  The group reviewed above are all lighter and different on the snow than the P98, but similar in performance.  I don't know that I skied a bad 98 ski recently; most of the designs have converged, it seems, and they all ski very well.  For me, some designs like the Bonafide were more soft-snow oriented; others like The One and Watea were quicker in feel and more nimble, some were better carvers like the BMX98, some like the Spire and Prophet 98 were smooth, damp, and quiet.  Overall, they all are super versatile skis, probably one of the best categories if one is looking for a primarily off-piste ski that can "do everything relatively well".  For those that ski primarily deeper snow or groomers, I wouldn't recommend a ski in this category, but for everyone else, it makes a lot of sense.  

post #49 of 54

Just pulled the trigger on some 186 Watea 98s from Dawg.  Anybody have any additional insights on the mounting point?  I am 6' 5" and 220 lbs and usually like my skis on the line or a little back.

post #50 of 54

Got out on my new Watea 98s in some spring condition snow at Wolf Creek over the weekend after mounting them on the factory line.  I found very little info on the net, so my purchase was based almost entirely on Dawg's review in this thread.  Besides being a better price than anywhere else on the web they arrived 3 days after I placed my order.  Had them on some soft, some hard, and some real funky snow and so far they are everything I had hoped for.  I've got some 186 Watea 94s I ski tele, and some old 192 Watea 101s that have been my alpine soft snow ski for 5 years.  I was worried the twin tips 186cm 98s would feel too short, but they have the usual Watea nimble sweet flex solid ride I have come to love with the Wateas.  As described by Dawg, they are a delight in the bumps, which is what I was primarily looking for.

post #51 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mudfoot View Post

Got out on my new Watea 98s in some spring condition snow at Wolf Creek over the weekend after mounting them on the factory line.  I found very little info on the net, so my purchase was based almost entirely on Dawg's review in this thread.  Besides being a better price than anywhere else on the web they arrived 3 days after I placed my order.  Had them on some soft, some hard, and some real funky snow and so far they are everything I had hoped for.  I've got some 186 Watea 94s I ski tele, and some old 192 Watea 101s that have been my alpine soft snow ski for 5 years.  I was worried the twin tips 186cm 98s would feel too short, but they have the usual Watea nimble sweet flex solid ride I have come to love with the Wateas.  As described by Dawg, they are a delight in the bumps, which is what I was primarily looking for.



Nice purchase!  Might be the best 98mm ski on the market for what you describe: it is sweet in funky snow and bumps. Don't know why this ski didn't get more love.  I like the fact the rocker is there, but so is a substantial camber section underfoot, and I can really work the ski fore and aft.  The stiffer skis in this group feel like you are just "stuck" and skiing the rocker and sidecut, rather than working the ski, at least if you are my weight.  It is hard to break out of that and ski really dynamically if you can't bend the ski. This one was pretty easy for me to bend, but didn't get kicked around or lose stability. Only downside is that I am a bit in between sizes.  176 is kind of short (especially with the turned up tail) while the 186 is pretty long for a guy my size. 

post #52 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgcatching View Post



Might be the best 98mm ski on the market for what you describe: it is sweet in funky snow and bumps. Don't know why this ski didn't get more love. 

I think the boat hull tips freak people out.  From what I could tell they do improve performance in funky snow and kept the soft tips from riding up on the crud, but man are they a bitch to wax.

post #53 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mudfoot View Post

I think the boat hull tips freak people out.  From what I could tell they do improve performance in funky snow and kept the soft tips from riding up on the crud, but man are they a bitch to wax.



I was just riding up the lift with a guy from Wintersteiger yesterday (regional sales manager, works at the head office). He has skied everything, is a pretty big guy, and his 2-ski quiver is the Watea 114 and Motive 88.  Thinks most of the current brands are producing stuff that doesn't match what Fischer is doing right now. Maybe they need to work on their marketing angle? 

post #54 of 54



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgcatching View Post



Nice purchase!  Might be the best 98mm ski on the market for what you describe: it is sweet in funky snow and bumps. Don't know why this ski didn't get more love.  I like the fact the rocker is there, but so is a substantial camber section underfoot, and I can really work the ski fore and aft.  The stiffer skis in this group feel like you are just "stuck" and skiing the rocker and sidecut, rather than working the ski, at least if you are my weight.  It is hard to break out of that and ski really dynamically if you can't bend the ski.

 

Dawg:

 

This statement sums up my whole philosophy of a good ski all mountain ski.  IMO most high perform ace skis are too stiff overall for off groomed skiing.  They are fine if you are totally focused and going real fast all the time, but almost nobody actually skis like that.   I have a particular dislike for stiff tailed skis because they punish you for being even a little back, which is particularly bothersome in bumps, but unless you are racing why would you want a ski that you need to fight to keep from accelerating you out of the turn?  The Watea 98s are a perfect example of a "big smile" ski, which is the shape is assumes when you pressure it, but they still have the advantages of an early rise tip and tail.  They have some snap if you want to really work the back end, but overall have a huge sweet spot. Like you, I like to work the whole ski.

 

Your statement about being "stuck" is very accurate.  Too many high end skis require you to chop at the mountain, which is fine if you want to attack all day, but IMO the Fischer Watea series gives you tools to aggressively caress the mountain in all conditions.  You maximize control by maximizing the amount of time the entire ski is in contact with the snow, and the Watea 98s immediately gave me that glued to the snow at any speed feeling I thrive on.  They only price you pay is when carving on hard snow, but their flex gives a very predictable slarve, which I can live with.  Hopefully Fischer will figure out a way to better market the Wateas so they don't evolve into something more mainstream (i.e. with less of a big smile). 

 

I paid for the entire ski, and I want to use it!   

 

MF

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