"The only people who want to carve any more..."

Picture the retro days notice of 2020. Round up some flat tailed carvers of the past, meet up and rip some groomers with us on April 1. (this being a gathering of the generation not recalling a straight ski)

 

 

. . .and people who can 

 

Apparently this guy doesn't stand in many lift lines and take polls on the number of "wide twintip rockers" versus other types of skis.

I think it's probably just a matter of instructors adapting to demand. Equipment has definitely changed. Even at small, icy hills like Holiday Valley in NY, most skiers I see taking lessons are showing up on gear that, just five seasons ago, would be considered totally inappropriate(or unsafe) for the conditions and terrain. It is now extremely rare to see anyone on sub-80mm skis, regardless of where you are or who the skiers are. The rental skis are even changing. Beginners are now being put on wider skis as well.

 

IMO, this entire shift was dictated by marketing and image, not reality. Eastern skiers didn't wake up one day and have a hunch that they should really be skiing ice on 88mm rockered designs.

 

Nobody is even producing skis under 72mm, outside of race skis. The average width today seems to be around 80mm and growing. IMO, the industry will come back to sanity and this will occur when the wide/rocker fad starts to wane, which all fads do, and many skiers realize something is not right with their current selections.  

As someone who's just recently experienced the thrill of carving I have to say that's just plain wrong. There are all kinds of things I want to be able to do on skis, but carving is definitely one of them. Gotta believe I'm not alone.

 

Oddly enough what really opened me up to carving was watching an instructor zoom away on a relatively flat traverse, and coming to understand he was able to do that because his skis were on edge! That stretch was where I really first felt it - laying the skis over and riding that edge uphill in a smooth arc.

 

And skinny skis are not required. I'm not an expert carver, and there's lots of room for improvement, but I can get that delicious sensation on my Prophet 100's.

I really feel for ski instructors these days.  It must be damn tough to teach someone how to use a ski properly when they show up on a ski that is entirely inappropriate as a learning tool.

 

At my home mountain, Loveland, there are tons are very aggressive rippers on big rockered skis that absolutely know how to use their edges and carve clean turns.  Did they actually learn these skills on those types of skis from day 1?  Probably not most of them.

Good skiers need to know how to lay down an edge.  Carving is still where it's at and 80mm skis will do just fine.

 

And what would you be teaching if it was not how carve, when a student is ready.

 

This is ligit, and skiers need to learn this.  But this skill should be in addition to carving skills.

My everyday ski is 86mm they carve just fine. Marketing, image, reality........ I got to ski one of our mid atlantic "black diamond" trails for a couple of days with a fellow instructor after snowmaking was done but before they groomed and opened it. Picture big snow whales, ice boulders with 8" of new snow on top. Not the type of terrain my friend skis well...... well he was shredding it up on his new pair of Volkl Bridge. Some of this rocker is marketing rocker some isn't but I agree that we are going to be seeing more students on them. I believe the hype that the rockered ski is easier to, well ski. The "carving" ski may be dead but I don't think the carved turn is.

 

Nolo I'm wondering if your clinic addressed the how of teaching a student on rockered skis?

There's only a few way to turn, carve, steer and pivot.  We should be teaching them all anyway.  A return to teaching a full array of foundation edging skills, and away from the pervasive rush to carve mentality that has corrupted the world of ski instruction world over the last several years would actually be a good thing.  

 

http://www.yourskicoach.com/YourSkiCoach/A_Revival_of_the_Steered_Turn.html

 

 

That may be true for the experienced, but trying to teach beginners the importance of utilizing the sidecut of the ski is going to be so much easier on a a ski that is sensible for the hardpacked conditions everyone starts out on. IMO, skis wider than the mid-sole of the boot will only lead to pushing on hardpack, for those starting out. They will push/pivot to gain leverage over a wide ski in hard conditions. They will never advance beyond the push/pivot stage and riding the sidecut of the ski would be a totally foreign idea that will never register tactilely.

 

My Hart Phoenix's (116/66/101) would beg to differ. They are just so damn much fun with metal guts and VIST plate. Put them on edge and they feel like they are carving into the earth's crust.  

David

I think Mojo made a good point regarding Marketing and Hype driving what skis people are buying. I remember last season when we had more than twice the amount of natural snow normally received at the local usually icy hill how many rockered skis I saw. I thought those sporting these new skis were guilty of overdoing it. They were skiing 6-8 inches of new snow with this type of ski , but what the heck, they were having fun. For all I knew a lot more fun then the  rest of us . Actually, I brought out my PE's on those days, so I guess I was straddling the fence so to speak.

 

I'm influenced by marketing and what others here at Epic post and share in the gear reviews etc. I went "over the top" and purchased a pair of Bluehouse Mavens for trips west this fall. Got one day on them in Vail back in early December and am very anxious to ski them again hopefully in deeper snow next time. They were a new experience and a lot of fun. We all hope to encounter powder but the reality is, probably the money could have been better spent elsewhere if I was truly honest with how many days I would ski where I would get decent utility out of these skis.

 

I think most every skier to varying degrees buy into the dream; that being powder days, blue sky, and perfect turns. Its alot easier for the equipment mfg. to sell skiing around this profile vs. frozen granular, gray sky, and sleet.

 

What I would buy in a heart beat is a ski that can make fg ski like velvet. The ugly truth is I would get a lot more utility out of that type of ski than my powder skis. 

I think it is safe to say students want to learn to ski. And further along the curve, to ski better. That includes carving. And other things. Not just drifting. For example, in soft snow (not your std lesson, but...), you can do amazing pivoted/buttered turns on modern rockered skis that'd be pretty hard to accomplish on older designs - a technique well in the range of an advanced intermediate.

 

IMO, the top tier truly modern rockered designs open a new world of skiing. They may not carve quite as "well" on hard snow as a dedicated carver, but carve they will (and in the hands of an expert with these tools, even a ski like a Hell Bent or Bent Chetler will leave rr tracks on very hard snow). Yet you can not ignore the fact they engage and disengage their edges a bit differently. And you also can not ignore the other aspects of how they behave...they will punish and reward "differently". 

 

This is not about carving vs not carving. It is not about racers vs not racers. It is about people wanting to learn to ski - well - on newer, and IMO vastly better, ski technology. Understanding it and developing appropriate pedagogical tools seems to me to be important for the instructional community and students alike. I doubt that will happen until many instructors get out on these skis -- enough to unlearn some old habits & learn to ski the newer skis they way they are meant to be used. In one sense, this is not a big change, but in another sense, the little differences in handling undo a number of old assumptions about balance, pressure, etc.

 

IMO PSIA would do well to do the following: 1) arrange a significant demo program so clinicians and instructors can spend real time on true modern designs (think S7/S3, Obsethed/Hell Bent, Bent Chetler/Blog, SFB/EP Pro, Armada JJ, assorted Praxis & DPS models, maybe Gotama/Katana, etc., etc.); and 2) find some good "coaching" on how to ski these -- leverage manufacturers building these skis, leading edge shops (the ones who have been specializing in these skis for years), etc. There are people out there who are truly expert with these skis, because they have been involved in the design and evolution of said skis. I'd find 'em & take advantage of the knowledge that is out there. It'd really jumpstart things. Time to get out of the box & out out of the hierarchy a bit.

 

I'd love to take what I'd consider credible instruction. I'm aware of my challenges as a skier. But until the instructional world catches up to the skis I'm using & the techniques needed to use them as they are meant to be used, that's a tall order.  So until that time comes, I'll mostly just tag along with better skiers than I am and learn as I go. 

 

Just my .02. 

 

The ski world has been mistaking 'Carving' for 'Skill' for ten years or so. There is a big difference between buying the right ski to make a carved turn and ski ability, when instructors figure out the difference, and learn to communicate that to their customer base, they'll generate more interest in their product. Right now, most intermediate trails are choked up by skiers who 'carve their turns'... no they don't, the skis they bought carve some of their turns, they couldn't ski their way out of a wet paper bag based on actual skill. They bought 'performance' and now they want to ski off-piste so they are buying the ability to go do that... hello fat rockered ski. How many threads here are started to ask "what ski will help me learn to ski powder?" or "This is my second year skiing, what ski will help me off trail?" People want to go ski on interesting terrain or away from crowds, they think they have learned 'skill' because they carve turns occasionally on groomed blue trails. Heck, you TOLD THEM that carving = skill, they bought carving skis and voila, they 'learned' to carve. Now they want to venture out, it's only natural to want to have skis that make it easier. 

 

Most people are buying/choosing a tool to achieve a performance result... a skilled skier gets the performance desired from his/her tool. There is a world of difference there. A good teacher should be able to teach something to a guy with lunch trays strapped to his feet. If learning is this gear specific... well, then we need better teachers.

 

Ski instructors and racers....AND GHOSTS!

 

One point you should take into consideration is that carving delivers speed, and some new skiers don't want to ski that fast.

 

I noticed this when skiing with my son, who was still mostly doing a mixture of gliding wedge - parallel non-arced turns, but has been introduced to carving via tipping the skis on edge.   I told hem to try it when he felt comfortable.  When I asked him if he had tried it and what his thoughts were, he replied that he had done so an a few occasions and that it worked well, but got him going too fast (for his ability to control his path through the crowd).

 

Very well said!

Please do go ski them. You don't have to drift your turns. You can ski them the way you ski your existing skis.

 

A couple of weeks ago, I skied past a clinic with an examiner I know. He was pointing out my S7s to his students and they were all laughing. The next day we had a demo and I went down to the Rossi truck got a pair of S3s and told him to go ski them. I didn't see him again until yesterday when he skied up to me and thanked me for opening his eyes, he had just bought a pair of S3s and totally loves them.

why do you need to drift turn entry on rockered skis? If you can ski you can carve most fat(and rockered) skis on hardpack even east coast hardpack.

 

I love the fact that the majority of PSIA is behind the times, it makes me more and more and relevant each day. It is also phasing out the people who are not willing to change. Strangely enough the east coast tree skier PSIA guys are some of the people who are really getting into it, because the narrower rockered skis seemed to be designed with east coast tree skiing in mind.

 

with the rockered skis you can ski dynamic high C turns better off trail than the alternatives, you can also do pretty dynamic smeers that would be impossible on anything else.  BTW stowe has exactly 2 L3s PSIA that are well versed in whats these things can do. We have both posted in this thread :). We are not behind the times here at all. * shameless selfplug*

 

 

 

I've personally never met that many people who hadn't raced when they were younger wanting to truly learn to ski like racers, or wanting to eurocarve.  And you in general don't take lessons to learn to do either of those, anyway.  In terms of culture and fashion, it's true that racing has become de-emphasized as freeride skiing and park have spread and people have started to look at terrain differently.  This is part of a trend where MTB, skiing, surfing, skateboarding, and riding all cross-pollinate much more than they did 20 years ago.  People who actively do several of these things shape the movement culture, then the fashion spreads and both a certain look, and a certain way of skiing and riding, become "in" even for 10 day/year skiers.  This includes more soft-snow friendly skis, more people venturing at least a bit into trees, and more people not just venturing into the park but having an awareness of the fact that there's a different etiquette there. 

 

In terms of ski instruction, if you can actually ski, skiing on wider boards isn't that different.  To learn to ski well on skis that are slightly harder to engage, and often more towards the GS end of the sidecut spectrum, can require a bit more speed and a bit more willingness to eat it.  So for skills acquisition, depending on the specific skis it can be a bit of a challenge both in terms of managing the safety side and in terms of having people go fast enough to power up the skis but stay relaxed enough to learn. 

 

Spindrift has a great suggestion re: demo skis.  Frankly most resorts should have a pair or two of freeride-oriented skis, and a few pairs of race skis, on hand, and expect at least full certs to spend at least a half-day on each sometime each season.  Otherwise it's easy to end up like a drug counselor who doesn't know what it is to get high.

 

Movement-wise, about the only thing I'd say is different is some things that would have been considered daring 20 years ago are now viewed as doable by ordinary skiers.  Taking a small rock drop, e.g., along with the U-ditch and boxes.  More people are also willing to take an approach to skiing that doesn't view bases and edges as precious...using terrain more creatively is doable even with intermediate groups of not very aggressive skiers or riders.  So, add "hands forward and drop in silly" to the stock-phrases.  At least the basics of an ollie and the ability to pump terrain probably also make the list, and are doable by athletic 60-somethings and fun. 

You've been reading this, haven't you?  http://www.yourskicoach.com/YourSkiCoach/Cant_Buy_A_Turn.html

 

Obviously, I'm kidding, and they're your own thoughts, but as you can see, Whiteroom, I agree with you.

The Red Lodge Mountain shop is waiting on the arrival of several pairs of rockered skis.  I don't know specifically how much or what has been ordered but when they finally arrive, all the instructors are expected to spend some time on them so we can "teach" people how to ski them.  I don't know that spending a couple of hours on each of several different skis will qualify me to teach someone how to ski them, but that is what's expected of us.  Of course there is also the issue of who's going to teach us how to ski them.  I guess they're assuming we can figure it out.  Right now there aren't any instructors skiing rockered skis and very few, maybe 7-8 out of 30-35, that even ski twintips.  It is actually humorous that, with one exception, twintips are being used only by the two oldest instructors(both of us are over 60) and the youngest(high school age) instructors.   

 

Cheers, Whiteroom. 

 

It amazes me how many "good" skiers on powder days absolutely suck 5 or 6 days after the last snowfall.  How difficult can it be for them to put a ski on edge and pressure it correctly?
 

Hmmm, pretty sure that has nothing to do with rockered skis. Regardless of their sliding tools - ski or board, rockered or not - most folks don't carve (interesting in its own right). Arbitrarily pointing at any one "demographic" is not a path toward any sort of understanding. Or instructional progress.

 

Although I have to say the skid factor among folks still on straight pencil skis is virtually 100%... And interestingly, I suspect they still often outnumber folks on rockered skis on many hills. So perhaps there's your culprit? 

It's important not to let "guest centered teaching" become "ski manufacturer marketing department centered teaching".

Recreational skiers may no longer be reading so much about carving in the skiing media, but I find they still enjoy the carving sensation just as much when they are introduced to it.

Wide skis, and now rockered skis, currently have an "emperor's new clothes" status. They are invigorating the industry, so no one wants to appear critical of them.

However, people who claim that wide or rockered skis perform "just as well" on hard snow, either are deluding themselves, or have never skied on really hard snow. World Cup racers, who earn their living from carving turns as efficiently as possible on the slickest ice imaginable, use the narrowest skis that the rules will allow - with traditional camber.

That's not to say that instructor governing bodies shouldn't incorporate skills for skiing off-piste on wide and rockered skis. But they should be careful to differentiate these from hard snow skills - don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Right now there is somewhat of a bandwagon effect and everyone is jumping on it, but eventually, the pendulum will swing back.

About 10 yrs. ago I thought that we would all be dinosaurs if we couldn't teach park & pipe.  I have yet not had anyone request a P&P lesson.  I still get plenty of requests for carving & racing clinics, & actually have people show up on appropriate equipment.  In fact I am in the midst of a week long race camp with 25 college students.

 

My rockers are waiting, I do tons of off piste guiding & coaching.  I get folks on wide skis, but still waiting for my first rocker fans to show.

 

JF

Hmmmmm.... Hmmmmm.....