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post #31 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
@ thesoggycow - short and no BS approach. Thanks. Thats exactly what it was, close stance and lifting my inside ski. Back seat? Could be. Should I extend my knee joint or bend more at the waist or both?


Neither. Tip-toe. Stand tall. Everything else will follow.

 

As for everyone else, chill out.

post #32 of 42



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 

 

. Am I correct if I say that the static appearance is due to the lack of extention and flexion? Rigid comes from a strong position? Close stance from good balance skills?

 



Rigid is the opposite of flexible. It requires a tightened core to sustain the position necessary to remain static and balanced while resisting the urge to extend or flex the limbs in response to the terrain and forces that accumulate in a turn. I know from my own experience that skiing rigidly takes effort and exertion--much more than is needed.  It can tire you quite rapidly. It is usually a state I end up in when I find myself intimidated by terrain and I get defensive. It is never imposed on myself as something to be embraced, as in the video.

 

I know you stated that you enjoy it and nobody can argue with that. But why force yourself to ski in a rigid position just so you can claim to eliminate any unweighting from your movements?  If I want to get a loaf of bread I can just take a short drive down the street to the corner store. I can also get there by taking a road that goes in the opposite direction for a few miles then loops back to the store.  I will still get the bread but why would I? I am just wasting gas.

post #33 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thesoggycow View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
@ thesoggycow - short and no BS approach. Thanks. Thats exactly what it was, close stance and lifting my inside ski. Back seat? Could be. Should I extend my knee joint or bend more at the waist or both?


Neither. Tip-toe. Stand tall. Everything else will follow.

 

As for everyone else, chill out.



Tip-toe, as in standing on toes? Thanks for the tip. I will try it out next time on snow. But I suspect that not much can be done. Its really hard to change ones natural skiing stance. Taking the spoiler out of my boots gives me a more upright stance but if Im too extended then I have a problem with extending. I like to have some extention available.

post #34 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoMan View Post

Rigid is the opposite of flexible. It requires a tightened core to sustain the position necessary to remain static and balanced while resisting the urge to extend or flex the limbs in response to the terrain and forces that accumulate in a turn. I know from my own experience that skiing rigidly takes effort and exertion--much more than is needed.  It can tire you quite rapidly. It is usually a state I end up in when I find myself intimidated by terrain and I get defensive. It is never imposed on myself as something to be embraced, as in the video.

 

I know you stated that you enjoy it and nobody can argue with that. But why force yourself to ski in a rigid position just so you can claim to eliminate any unweighting from your movements?  If I want to get a loaf of bread I can just take a short drive down the street to the corner store. I can also get there by taking a road that goes in the opposite direction for a few miles then loops back to the store.  I will still get the bread but why would I? I am just wasting gas.



You have somehow managed to turn this thing upside down. Im not saying that you should be skiing without an up move. Simply showing a way how to do it. Its not a demo of how you should be skiing. It a demo of how you could be skiing. Actually its a task. So if I started to move up and down up-unweighting and flexing through the turn then I might have looked more dynamic but the task would have been performed falcely. In order to succeed with the task you cannot up-unweight. I guess its also a matter of general habitus. Im quite stiff and tall. My advice to you and others is to try out different ways of turning. And taping it on video. You dont even have to post the video here if you dont want to. Just watch it yourself and be surpriced. The fact that nobody is posting demos of their skiing here is quite sad. Only Rick and BB do it with some rare exceptions. I have a task for you. Ski down a easy groomer without initiating the turns by up-unweighting but still looking very dynamic. Tape it and post it here. I would like to see how its done and maybe learn something.

post #35 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ster View Post

 

Quote:
@ 4ster - Thats my point exactly! Turning out of a traverse. Im trying to isolate the movements I use to turn. Do the same the next time you are skiing and tell me what you found out.

I don't need to.  I start from a dead stop everytime I begin a series of turns down the mountain.  I have no argument that a skier can release his edges & start a turn down the hill without an UP-unwieghting move.

 

Skiing is a dynamic sport, that requires dynamic movement. 

 

When I see a skier like the one you portray in your video, I want to teach him to:

A.  Link turns, so he can feel the sensation of using the energy from one turn to move into the next.

B.  Bend & unbend, so he can feel the joy of rhythm from turn to turn.

C.  Try different turn shapes, so he can control his speed & go where he wants to go.  Your demo turns verge on being Z turns.

 

Thanks,

JF



Its interesting how many general flaws can be found out of my simple demo of turn initiation without up-move. To nolos alredy long list I can now add z-turns, not enought variation in the turn shape, lacking speed controll and difficlty to go where I want. Fixing all this should keep me busy for some time.

 

A. The root of all evil are linked turns. You should be able to make turns on a stand alone basis.

B. You are saying that the only way a skier can feel joy is by bending and unbending in a rhythmical turn to turn fashion?

C. We must have a totally different understanding of z turns. IMO my turns are very round and even. I also controll my speed nicely by brushing my edges against the snow all through out the turn and turning all the way across the hill in a slow line fast manner.

post #36 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ster View Post

 

Quote:
@ 4ster - Thats my point exactly! Turning out of a traverse. Im trying to isolate the movements I use to turn. Do the same the next time you are skiing and tell me what you found out.

I don't need to.  I start from a dead stop everytime I begin a series of turns down the mountain.  I have no argument that a skier can release his edges & start a turn down the hill without an UP-unwieghting move.

 

Skiing is a dynamic sport, that requires dynamic movement. 

 

When I see a skier like the one you portray in your video, I want to teach him to:

A.  Link turns, so he can feel the sensation of using the energy from one turn to move into the next.

B.  Bend & unbend, so he can feel the joy of rhythm from turn to turn.

C.  Try different turn shapes, so he can control his speed & go where he wants to go.  Your demo turns verge on being Z turns.

 

Thanks,

JF



Its interesting how many general flaws can be found out of my simple demo of turn initiation without up-move. To nolos alredy long list I can now add z-turns, not enought variation in the turn shape, lacking speed controll and difficlty to go where I want. Fixing all this should keep me busy for some time.

 

A. The root of all evil are linked turns. You should be able to make turns on a stand alone basis.

B. You are saying that the only way a skier can feel joy is by bending and unbending in a rhythmical turn to turn fashion?

C. We must have a totally different understanding of z turns. IMO my turns are very round and even. I also controll my speed nicely by brushing my edges against the snow all through out the turn and turning all the way across the hill in a slow line fast manner.


That's not what I said at all. 

I understand the concept of isolating movements, discipline, etc.

Your video is uninspiring, & part of the reason people think that ski instructors ski like robots & lessons are no fun.

 

Thanks,

JF

post #37 of 42

Er, I think you guys are all being a bit harsh on poor old tdk6.
Only to be expected, I guess; there are lots of systems of skiing and learning to ski around the world, but in every country, people think that their own system is the best.
I don't think tdk6 is advocating that everyone should ski like this all the time. I think it is merely a drill to make a point.
What is that point, tdk6?
That the lifting of the old outside ski can achieve the same effect as OLF or ILE?

post #38 of 42



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoMan View Post

Rigid is the opposite of flexible. It requires a tightened core to sustain the position necessary to remain static and balanced while resisting the urge to extend or flex the limbs in response to the terrain and forces that accumulate in a turn. I know from my own experience that skiing rigidly takes effort and exertion--much more than is needed.  It can tire you quite rapidly. It is usually a state I end up in when I find myself intimidated by terrain and I get defensive. It is never imposed on myself as something to be embraced, as in the video.

 

I know you stated that you enjoy it and nobody can argue with that. But why force yourself to ski in a rigid position just so you can claim to eliminate any unweighting from your movements?  If I want to get a loaf of bread I can just take a short drive down the street to the corner store. I can also get there by taking a road that goes in the opposite direction for a few miles then loops back to the store.  I will still get the bread but why would I? I am just wasting gas.



You have somehow managed to turn this thing upside down. Im not saying that you should be skiing without an up move. Simply showing a way how to do it. Its not a demo of how you should be skiing. It a demo of how you could be skiing. Actually its a task. So if I started to move up and down up-unweighting and flexing through the turn then I might have looked more dynamic but the task would have been performed falcely. In order to succeed with the task you cannot up-unweight. I guess its also a matter of general habitus. Im quite stiff and tall. My advice to you and others is to try out different ways of turning. And taping it on video. You dont even have to post the video here if you dont want to. Just watch it yourself and be surpriced. The fact that nobody is posting demos of their skiing here is quite sad. Only Rick and BB do it with some rare exceptions. I have a task for you. Ski down a easy groomer without initiating the turns by up-unweighting but still looking very dynamic. Tape it and post it here. I would like to see how its done and maybe learn something.


 

Well, I understand where you are coming from but I don't see why I would want to tape myself skiing down an easy groomer without initiating turns by up-unweighting.  I am not trying to prove anything and I am not trying to compete with anyone.  I was just sharing my own impressions and comments related to the video. You had asked for comments and opinions when you created the post.

 

Anyways, these discussions are interesting but they always inevitably lead to people thinking too much. For some, such as myself, I think this causes us to lose track of why we ski in the first place and that is for personal enjoyment and satisfcation. 

 

I am not trying to adhere to any standard. When it comes to skiing, I am after efficiency--both in equipment and skills that make my life easy. Skiing to me is a form of recreation, not a  competitive activity. I suspect this is true for most others, as well. It doesn't matter to me what brand, system, or abritrary standard of teaching is used to achieve that end. That's why I never found any use for 80mm+ skis on hardpack. They offer nothing effiecient or practical for me and simply make for less effiicient edging on hard snow. In that regards, does the content in the video appear to me to offer efficiency and practicality? No. Does it look like fun? No. Does it look like a drill I would want to practice on the hill? No. That doesn't mean it may not be fun for someone and it doesn't mean it's bad or good or lacks any merits. That's just my opinion.

 

 

post #39 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bell View Post

Er, I think you guys are all being a bit harsh on poor old tdk6.
Only to be expected, I guess; there are lots of systems of skiing and learning to ski around the world, but in every country, people think that their own system is the best.
I don't think tdk6 is advocating that everyone should ski like this all the time. I think it is merely a drill to make a point.
What is that point, tdk6?
That the lifting of the old outside ski can achieve the same effect as OLF or ILE?



Thanks Martin. Yes its expected but at the same time I think that there are readers here that are here to learn and struggle with this precise issue. Its confusing for students when nobody can pinnpoint and show a video of what it looks like. My point, one of them, in ref to your posting, is that OLF and ILE are release movements. If you dont make OLF and ILE into turning conspets including a bunch of movements that people dont care to mention. Or cant mention actually. OLF and ILE might do the trick if you are carving but if you are not then its only one isolated movement. Eather flexing or extending. It will not turn the skis. If you carve the trick is not to turn the skis. Herin lies the secret to successfull separation and exercution of steering and carving respectively.

 

As you can see from this discussion very little discussion hoovers arround the actual task and demo and its intent. More comments about other things such as stiffness, turn shape and even what is fun in skiing. Parallels are also drawn to wc skiing. Kind of not the issue here. People have difficulty in grasping why/why not up-unweight.

post #40 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ster View Post
That's not what I said at all. 

I understand the concept of isolating movements, discipline, etc.

Your video is uninspiring, & part of the reason people think that ski instructors ski like robots & lessons are no fun.

 

Thanks,

JF


I know, thats not what you said. But it sounded like it. Uninspiring LOL! Cant argue with you here. Part of being an instructor is taking booring lessons at clinics and camps.
 

post #41 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoMan View Post



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 

 

. Am I correct if I say that the static appearance is due to the lack of extention and flexion? Rigid comes from a strong position? Close stance from good balance skills?

 



Rigid is the opposite of flexible. It requires a tightened core to sustain the position necessary to remain static and balanced while resisting the urge to extend or flex the limbs in response to the terrain and forces that accumulate in a turn. I know from my own experience that skiing rigidly takes effort and exertion--much more than is needed.  It can tire you quite rapidly. It is usually a state I end up in when I find myself intimidated by terrain and I get defensive. It is never imposed on myself as something to be embraced, as in the video.

 

I know you stated that you enjoy it and nobody can argue with that. But why force yourself to ski in a rigid position just so you can claim to eliminate any unweighting from your movements?  If I want to get a loaf of bread I can just take a short drive down the street to the corner store. I can also get there by taking a road that goes in the opposite direction for a few miles then loops back to the store.  I will still get the bread but why would I? I am just wasting gas.

 

Why would you use a car to go to the corner store for bread?
 

post #42 of 42
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoMan View Post

Well, I understand where you are coming from but I don't see why I would want to tape myself skiing down an easy groomer without initiating turns by up-unweighting.  I am not trying to prove anything and I am not trying to compete with anyone.  I was just sharing my own impressions and comments related to the video. You had asked for comments and opinions when you created the post.

 

Anyways, these discussions are interesting but they always inevitably lead to people thinking too much. For some, such as myself, I think this causes us to lose track of why we ski in the first place and that is for personal enjoyment and satisfcation. 

 

I am not trying to adhere to any standard. When it comes to skiing, I am after efficiency--both in equipment and skills that make my life easy. Skiing to me is a form of recreation, not a  competitive activity. I suspect this is true for most others, as well. It doesn't matter to me what brand, system, or abritrary standard of teaching is used to achieve that end. That's why I never found any use for 80mm+ skis on hardpack. They offer nothing effiecient or practical for me and simply make for less effiicient edging on hard snow. In that regards, does the content in the video appear to me to offer efficiency and practicality? No. Does it look like fun? No. Does it look like a drill I would want to practice on the hill? No. That doesn't mean it may not be fun for someone and it doesn't mean it's bad or good or lacks any merits. That's just my opinion.

 

 


The reason why I have taped tasks and drills like this over the years is because Im interested in skiing, ski instruction and technique. You dont need to be a prfessional to have a professional approach. I value your input here a lot and Im not asking for anything more than suitable communication. I think that this discussion in this thread benefitted from the video clip. That should have been a good thing.

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