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Parallel skiing - alternative method to up-unweighting (video inside)

post #1 of 42
Thread Starter 

Here is a video from 2009 of me skiing basic parallel turns down an easy gromer. I was trying to demo turn initiation without any up-extention up-unweighting move. Feel free to comment, MA or ask questions.

 

 

Edit: new nonviolating trademark version


Edited by tdk6 - 1/6/11 at 1:15pm
post #2 of 42

Hi.

 

Thanks for sharing. I am not sure where you are going with the video, however. I don't think anyone would enjoy being that static and rigid. It's is an interesting technical demo but it just looks very static and sterile to my relatively untrained, non-instructor eyes. I am far from being an expert but I do know that If you were to ski more dynamically and aggressively(real-world skiing), there is no way you would eliminate all up or down unweighting movements in your skiing. It just won't happen.   

 

So really I don't know what the point of the demo is. Outside of drills, who really skis like that, except skiers on older straight skis with their feet close together? IMO, tryig to foster the elimination of any up movements as a goal will just lead to rigid skiers and rigid thinking.

 

Anyways, if I had to use that technique all the time I would probably just quit skiing and take up snow-shoeing. That's not a knock on your demo. Just my perceptions.

post #3 of 42

I have to echo Mojo Man...way too static. I also see no counter balance nor counter action. Look at some of the World Cup racers like Ligity or Hirsch to see what I mean. Also you could use flexion to release instead of tipping on unrelased skis.

 

Rick H

post #4 of 42

I think it's a great parlour trick (if your parlour is a ski hill).  I can see you are being careful not to up or down unweight, and succeeding for the most part.  Most of the unweighting comes from going over the virtual bump AFTER the new turn is already started, and IIRC only one turn had a bit of unweighting before that.

 

Now for your next trick, please do some dynamic carving with no unweighting and film it.  Be careful to use a cross-through, not cross over or cross under; we don't want people pointing out any up or down unweighting.

post #5 of 42

What do you mean there's no "up unweighting"?  You lift the inside ski UP to initiate every change of weight.  That move is as bogus with today's equipment as your lean to the outside to change weight in a wedge. 

post #6 of 42

The skis are acting as one unit and there is pretty much equal weight distribution. In essence, there is only one edge change to deal with. Weighting or unweighting isn't really needed.  If the feet were moved about a foot or more apart and the speed was picked up, the demo would fall apart without some form of weight transfer that involves unweighting of some kind. It would be nearly impossible to stay on your feet while the legs and upper body remain that static and rigid.

 

It is interesting but I just see no practical value to the demo, unless one were trying to teach someone how to ski with their feet close together using foot steering while their legs and hips remains rigid.

post #7 of 42

Although the turns show good patience & shape, they are not even linked...  What is your point?

Thanks,

JF

post #8 of 42

backseat, feet far too close together, and I saw you lift up your inside ski at one point? wtf?

post #9 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by thesoggycow View Post

backseat, feet far too close together, and I saw you lift up your inside ski at one point? wtf?



You mean lift the inside ski like these guys?

post #10 of 42

Neale, I agree. Wow, Why do so many folks confuse the hip's distance from the snow with unweighting moves? It's not rocket science guys. TDK is doing a step turn which includes picking up the tail of the old outside ski to unweight it. Want to do a dynamic turn with a weighted release? Do any dynamic turn you please and simply roll the skis to flat, or near flat and the edges will release without any unweighting. It's really that simple.

post #11 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ster View Post

Although the turns show good patience & shape, they are not even linked...  What is your point?

Thanks,

JF



tdk8 has just taken a lead from the other thread about "Get rid of the "UP" move.........."

 

See this video similar slow turns with up unweighting for comparison.

 

Video is obviously the best way to understand the posters points of view. Should be more of it although from most of the stupid comments I see why most aren't game.

 

Thanks tdk6!  I like the turns. Showing exactly what the thread title says, (at a slow demonstration pace).

 

 

 

 

 

post #12 of 42

Originally Posted by Rick H View Post

 

I have to echo Mojo Man...way too static. I also see no counter balance nor counter action. Look at some of the World Cup racers like Ligity or Hirsch to see what I mean. Also you could use flexion to release instead of tipping on unrelased skis.

 

Rick H


I see sufficient CB and CA for those slow turns. FFS, why would you compare CB and CA in these ultra slow turns with WC racer turns.

 

He has used flexion to release, how else do you think his outside ski is lifted off the snow?
 

post #13 of 42

Thanks Ashski.

JF

post #14 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

What do you mean there's no "up unweighting"?  You lift the inside ski UP to initiate every change of weight.  That move is as bogus with today's equipment as your lean to the outside to change weight in a wedge. 



tdk6 is refering to extension as being the up unweighting....... I would presume. Flexing and lifting the outside ski is not extension or up unweighting in my book.

 

Is it bogus? The racers in this video when carving the 3rd and 4th turns all use the same lifting of the inside ski.

 

 

 

post #15 of 42


 

      Quote:

Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

What do you mean there's no "up unweighting"?  You lift the inside ski UP to initiate every change of weight.  That move is as bogus with today's equipment....................... 


 

 

Bogus movements?

 



 

post #16 of 42


 

     

post #17 of 42


 

    

post #18 of 42

OMG. tdk6, you should have a warning on that video: "Do not view while drinking coffee or your keyboard may suffer damage." 

 

Your apologist's use of WC videos to provide visual excuses for your mistakes is funny and sad at the same time. Remember the Jet Sticks!

 

The video demonstrates: looking down at your ski tips, traversing between turns, lifting inside ski to clear, lack of counter, pole swing unrelated to turn tempo -- but my biggest complaint is it's contrived, and my biggest regret is this is how you think we should ski. In the other thread you laughed about the notion of standing up down the hill to start a turn. Standing up down the hill is a very strong move. I'm not talking about hopping or popping up, but slowly and deliberately straightening and loading the flexed (now former) inside leg while tipping down the hill. The process starts with flexing and unloading the former outside leg, which allows gravity to assist the momentum you already have to pull you down the hill and start the transition to change edges. Unloading the old stance ski is what loads the new stance ski and once you get that load directed to the inside edge, that ski will start turning. That's the extension movement, it's pretty much isolated to the stance leg, and it's a very flowing and natural way of skiing. You also can squat slightly and pull up your legs and change edges while moving the feet and legs from one side of the hips to the other, but you still want to achieve a long outside leg and a short inside leg. Either way works, and in truth, I think most experts use a little of both. 


Edited by nolo - 1/6/11 at 6:08am
post #19 of 42

Not to mention the footer on your video that says "Epicski.com"    I personally would really love it if you would delete that reference on any of your videos or graphics please!

post #20 of 42

Nolo, from what i have seen you are one of the gentle and even-handed folks on the forum so I am just going to point out, TDK6 actually was demonstrating a turn as a follow-up to a lively discussion on the thread on "up-unweighting" over the last few days , i think he was demo-ing turns w/o some moves which were discussed that's all. Not that TDK6 needs my "assist", just an fyi.

post #21 of 42

That video dustyfog, was poor skiing anyway you choose to look at it and to associate it with Epicski is slander!

post #22 of 42

The video pre-dates the discussion, dustyfog, which leads me to believe the video is congruent with tdk6's technical model.

 

tdk6, I agree with Bud and must insist that you remove the reference to EpicSki in your videos. We own the trademark and that's a violation.   

post #23 of 42


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashski View Post



Originally Posted by Rick H View Post

 

I have to echo Mojo Man...way too static. I also see no counter balance nor counter action. Look at some of the World Cup racers like Ligity or Hirsch to see what I mean. Also you could use flexion to release instead of tipping on unrelased skis.

 

Rick H


I see sufficient CB and CA for those slow turns. FFS, why would you compare CB and CA in these ultra slow turns with WC racer turns.

 

He has used flexion to release, how else do you think his outside ski is lifted off the snow?
 


Ashski,

 

I see no CB in any of his turns. It is as though he has a metal rod going through his spine. As for CA, he is going slow enough not to generate much rotational force to require much CA. You can see what CB and CA is very clearly. TDK6 is very clearly not showing either.

 

Rick H

post #24 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashski View Post





tdk6 is refering to extension as being the up unweighting....... I would presume. Flexing and lifting the outside ski is not extension or up unweighting in my book.

 

Is it bogus? The racers in this video when carving the 3rd and 4th turns all use the same lifting of the inside ski.

 

 

 


 


 I know what he's trying to refer to.  He's not demonstrating racing techniques.

post #25 of 42

 

A guy goes to the trouble to film some contrived slow and deliberate movements, just to show clearly that it is possible to initiate and complete turns without up unweighting and you accuse him of not being able to skinonono2.gif.  Especially when you have been around long enough to have seen other videos of his normal skiing. I am dissapointed.frown.gif It is obvious this is the result of an on-going feud with TDK6 due to his archaic views of snowplow turns and other issues.  Get the tar and feathers rolleyes.gif

 

TDK6,

I think you have some video of you making non-arced turns in moguls that you posted a few years ago.   You had better post that video (or another suitable one of your skiing) up here instead of the next parlour trick, just so the newer viewers can get an idea of what you think proper skiing should look like.  Be sure not to reference Epicski in the video; you wouldn't want anyone to mistake your skiing for epicski skiing.

post #26 of 42

Feud? Nope, there is room for alternate opinions, even fifty year old opinions. TDK solicited comments and suggestions. He got what he asked for, nothing more.

post #27 of 42
Thread Starter 

Wow, what a lot of postings. I will try to anwere all of them in order of posting. Here we go....

 

@ mojoman - thanks for your feedback. You raice a lot of good questions. Yes, its a technical demo. But the ide is to ski moderately slowl on easy gromers without any aggression or speed. Any skiing is IMO real world skiing. Every skiing just has a different purpose. I ski like this quite a lot. And I enjoy doing so. You mention that its too rigid and static. And my skis are too close together. Am I correct if I say that the static appearance is due to the lack of extention and flexion? Rigid comes from a strong position? Close stance from good balance skills?

 

@ Rick H - thanks for the Ligerty and Hirsch comparisson, very flattering, but I should be compared to similair skiing not wc skiing even if Im @ the same level wink.gif. You dont see any counter or angulation. I think there is some. Not a whole lot but some where in the region of sufficient.

 

@ Ghost - you are on to me LOL. A parlour trick. Indeed, but like all magicians I will not reveal how its made. But isnt all skiing like a continuous flow of magical tricks? I was trying very hard not to up-unweight even if Im not a very radical up-unweighter. Im the static kind like pointed out here already. Q, how does the virtual bump build up if Im not linking turns? From where does the momentum come? What starts the turn? How do you want your stake sir, medium or well done? The demo, by cross through, do you mean a retraction transition type of turn?

 

@ Kneale Brownson - I cannot fool you can I? And yes, correct, its not racing technique. Bingo, Im lifting the inside ski. And that does something doesent it? It funnily enough unweights my skis. Sharp eye. You call it bogus. I call it magic. But that is not relevant here. Only the mechanism that I use to initiate a turn. Your task was to find out what it was and you did well. But that does not mean that the discussion needs to be over just because the cards are on the table because like all magicians I have some cards up my sleeve. Thanks for not missing a good opportunity to slam my dated wedging technique of the future! But you are right that this was the way we skied back in the pre carving ski era. Would you call it a sequencial technique? BTW, do you think the weighted release uses the same basic unweighting consept?

 

@ mojoman - you are right, a wider stance would complicate things. So we agree that in order to ski like I did in the clip a close stance is needed. In a close stance all movements can be more subtle. Adds to the static appearance. BTW, whats wrong with foot steering and a close stance? The opposite would be a wide stance and carving.

 

@ 4ster - Thats my point exactly! Turning out of a traverse. Im trying to isolate the movements I use to turn. Do the same the next time you are skiing and tell me what you found out.

 

@ thesoggycow - short and no BS approach. Thanks. Thats exactly what it was, close stance and lifting my inside ski. Back seat? Could be. Should I extend my knee joint or bend more at the waist or both?

 

@ jasp - correct. The CoM distance from snow can vary without any extention or flexion to unweight. Step turn? Can a step turn be made by just picking a ski up in the air? I thaught a step would include a "step". At least how I was thaugth the step turn back in the 70s. Also, if you are letting your skis run straight forward on their uphill edges and you tip them to their downhill edges you will initiate a carve. This is not what Im doing. Im turning about 10 times tighter than a carved turn on these skis. You are right, carving is theoretically simple if you compare it to basic parallel turns.

 

@ Ashski - a million thanks for your great feedback icon14.gif. And thanks for the video in the link. I whish I could ski like that. Its good to hear that you think the CB and the CA is sufficient for the type of skiing Im demonstrating. Correct, I flex to release. In your responce to KB you mention that you dont think that lifting of the ski is up-unweighting. This is a gray zone. I think you are both right. And offcourse its not bogus to lift one ski up in the air as we can see from the video you posted.

 

@ nolo - no I dont remember the jet sticks. So you think that lifting that inside ski was a misstake? In that case it was a deliberate misstake be cause I did that on purpose. That BTW was the reason I turned so it could hardly be a misstake. At the most crappy skiing. No, Im not suggesting you or anybody else should ski like this if you would not want to. Thats up to each and everyone of us. Wow, you sure have a long list of complaints:

- looking at tips

- traversing between turns

- lifting inside ski

- lack of counter

- pole swing unrelated to turn tempo

- contrived

You dont have anything positive to say about the demo. No sweat, I can take it. I have heared it before, I keep looking at the ski tips. Sofar I have never run into anything else than racing gates on occation and some good looking women mainly in the afterski bar. But none of them were due to me looking at my ski tips or the floor. Anyway, I dont pay any attention to them even if it appears Im looking at them. I think its because Im consentrated and its easier to keep my balance that way. The whole ide was to traverse between turns. That was part of the task. Funny that you did not understand why I was traversing. It was discussed in the other thread. Lifting of the inside ski was also part of the demo. I had to lift the ski in order to turn. That was almost the only single movement I did. I should go out and make the same demo with more counter. If I did I bet I would get hammered for doing so. I saw no need for more counter than I used. The pole swing is right where it should be. IMHO offcourse. It should be isolated from every other movement and not depending on turning. According to the manual the pole plant should be at the exact moment of weight shift. If you look at the video you can see that this happens every time. But pole planting is a highly personal thing. I like the pole swing/turn tempo setup. Looks good to me. Contrived! Not much I can comment on that. In a way that is a positive thing. Thanks. I was trying to be as stable as I could. Standing up down the hill. Its funny that you do not see that its exactly what Im doing in the video. Im releasing the outside ski loading the inside ski and starting a tipping movement down the hill. I would love to see a demo of how you out of a traverse initiate a turn by squatting and pulling up your legs. That needs to be a pritty quick movement to beat gravity. I could not do it but maybe you are quicker. But that could hardly be a very efficient way of initiating turns. And deffinetly not result in what you call skiing with nice flow. Thats eather in your head or then you are doing something different.

 

@ bud heisman and nolo - I had the rights to use the footer and no moderator has given me any orders to delete it. But I dont want to cause any harm to anyone so I deleted it.

 

@ dustyfog - thanks for your assistance. Thats exactly how it is. Although I think this thread should be able to be totally independent.

 

@ bud and nolo - LOL, poor skiing, slander..... eek.gif Ok, you are entitled your opinions. About the epicski reference... nolo, you should have pm me insted of accusing me of trademark violation like this out in the open. More professionla approach. But its gone now, from all the videos I could find a reference in.

 

Thats all for now folks. If I missed any posting please get back to me and I will do my best to comment on the feedback I missed.

post #28 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Feud? Nope, there is room for alternate opinions, even fifty year old opinions. TDK solicited comments and suggestions. He got what he asked for, nothing more.



You bet there is a feud going on, why try to be so shy about it. You can find it in almost any thread dating 50 y in the past. I got what I was asking for LOL, like this was my waterloo. Good day to you sir.

 

post #29 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

 

A guy goes to the trouble to film some contrived slow and deliberate movements, just to show clearly that it is possible to initiate and complete turns without up unweighting and you accuse him of not being able to skinonono2.gif.  Especially when you have been around long enough to have seen other videos of his normal skiing. I am dissapointed.frown.gif It is obvious this is the result of an on-going feud with TDK6 due to his archaic views of snowplow turns and other issues.  Get the tar and feathers rolleyes.gif

 

TDK6,

I think you have some video of you making non-arced turns in moguls that you posted a few years ago.   You had better post that video (or another suitable one of your skiing) up here instead of the next parlour trick, just so the newer viewers can get an idea of what you think proper skiing should look like.  Be sure not to reference Epicski in the video; you wouldn't want anyone to mistake your skiing for epicski skiing.



Thanks Ghost. Yes, I dont get it. I go through the trouble of making a video and all I get is bad feedback not relevat to the topic. It must be because people are upset with me or that they dont understand what this is all about. Nolo rightfully pointed out that my video predates the other thread. But that is hardly a reason why it should not be recognized by the court as evidence that a turn can be initiated without any up-move. Objection overruled, please continue....

 

Here is a video of me making some turns in soft snow not carving. I dont know if its of much relevance here in this thread but maybe something in it can be contrasted to the original video.

 

 

LOL, I have no problem being referenced to epicski. Its a truly one way thing.

post #30 of 42

 

Quote:
@ 4ster - Thats my point exactly! Turning out of a traverse. Im trying to isolate the movements I use to turn. Do the same the next time you are skiing and tell me what you found out.

I don't need to.  I start from a dead stop everytime I begin a series of turns down the mountain.  I have no argument that a skier can release his edges & start a turn down the hill without an UP-unwieghting move.

 

Skiing is a dynamic sport, that requires dynamic movement. 

 

When I see a skier like the one you portray in your video, I want to teach him to:

A.  Link turns, so he can feel the sensation of using the energy from one turn to move into the next.

B.  Bend & unbend, so he can feel the joy of rhythm from turn to turn.

C.  Try different turn shapes, so he can control his speed & go where he wants to go.  Your demo turns verge on being Z turns.

 

Thanks,

JF

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