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Tail follows tip = Carving - Page 2

post #31 of 47

I am not surprised that you are confused.  It is amazing to me that people think that they have been carving turkeys for all these centuries.  They just don't get it.  Everyone knows that the English can't carve turkeys -- some of them claim that they invented turkey carving, but they just don't get it.  People who follow my turkey carving instructions will carve a turkey better than anyone out there, including the so-called Turkey Carvers.  Tog, you are a pretty decent skier, but I am sorry that you have been deceived by the historical turkey carvers for so long.  I can't possibly offer advice to anyone not willing to post video of him/her carving a turkey.  You should not be afraid that I will belittle your style as long as you approach me with a humble and sincere desire to learn how to properly carve a turkey.  The person in the video you posted did not ask my opinion, so (even though I did not watch the video) I can say with certainty that he doesn't know what he is doing.  He just doesn't get it.

post #32 of 47
Thread Starter 



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

still, on topic has anyone looked at my tracks issue above?

 

You are absolutely right Tog, unless those are hop transitions they are offset in the wrong direction.

post #33 of 47
Thread Starter 



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

still, on topic has anyone looked at my tracks issue above?

 

You are absolutely right Tog, unless those are hop transitions they are offset in the wrong direction.

post #34 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post


Aren't these tracks offset the wrong way?

 

Originally Posted by mogulmuncher View Post

 


Oops.

 

While I might continue to argue that I know what carving is, I clearly can't draw carving properly...
 

post #35 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogulmuncher View Post

If the edge tracks look like this you're carving:

 

carve.jpg

 

You could also pivot between A & B, and then resume carving at B.


I have no problem with this drawing as it goes nicely with my new Tip-Rockered, Reverse-Camber, Reverse-Sidecut Skis. I got them for $19.95 (along with two sets of bindings and two sets of ski poles just by paying the extra shipping charge of $874...)

With Reverse-Sidecut, I just tip them onto their outside edges (they want to flop over that way anyhow, right?) and they carve nicely against the very high PTEX-coated sidewall of each ski. Haven't tried them anywhere off the Groomed Green runs yet though.

.ma
post #36 of 47
Hey Tog--I've looked at those tracks, and you're obviously right. As a ski tips from right to left, or vice-versa, the edges that engage are the opposite of the tracks that are drawn there. Should be right edge in a right turn, shifting to left edge in a left turn--each ski's track would look like the track of a carving snowboard. I suspect that it was a minor oversight on MogulMuncher's part, and that his message still comes clear: no skidding, clean roll from edge to edge, and all that.

Something many may not have considered, though, is that the edge change is not necessarily immediate. There is usually a time and distance delay between the release of the edge(s) from the old turn and the re-engagement of the new edge(s) in the new turn. In fact, most turns begin on the outside edges of the skis--right turns actually begin on the left edges.

How is that possible, you ask? Consider a turn that begins from a traverse, for simplicity's sake. You're traversing from right to left across the hill, leaving clean tracks with your uphill (left) edges.* Now you roll those skis to the right, reducing their edge angle, until they let go of their grip on the mountain ("release"). At that moment, your new turn has begun, since gravity now pulls you down the hill. But you're still on your uphill (left) edges, slightly, just as you would be in a sideslip.

So turns begin (defined here as the inflection point, the moment the curvature of your path begins down the hill, or in the other direction in the case of linked turns) with edge release. And edge release occurs before the skis are completely flat on the snow--again, as a simple sideslip easily proves. So, therefore, turns begin on the outside edges, continue to roll into the turn through "flat," and then, finally, onto their new edges where they may begin to carve the new turn. (And, of course, since they are not even on their inside edges, the skis cannot possibly bend into reverse camber and carve at this point--but they can certainly be guided such that they "track" cleanly, such that your feet point the direction they are pointed along the arc, and such that, the moment the skis re-engage on their new edges, they can begin to bend and carve cleanly.

Note that this delay between edge release and edge/pressure re-engagement will be longer the steeper the hill, and the slower the skier travels. With higher speed, the skier will move further inside the turn earlier, enabling earlier edge engagement.

So even in the most "carved" turns, there is a phase in the transition where the skis are not carving, at least not in the sense of being bent into reverse camber with pressure and edge angle. The phase may be very brief, as in railroad tracks on gentle terrain, or quite drawn out, as in highly completed (across, or even back up, the hill) turns on steep terrain. But it must exist. Even arc-to-arc carved turns involve an edge release.

---
* Yes, if you must nitpick, it is impossible to traverse on a perfectly straight line leaving perfectly clean tracks on a ski with sidecut. When tipped on edge--which the ski must be to hold the traverse--it will bend into reverse camber and "want" to carve an arc. But for all practical purposes...deal with it!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

PS:
Quote:
It's no wonder so few skiers can execute a decent carve. A subset of [some of the alledged best] ski instructors from around the world can't even agree on a definition for it!

What a completely useless comment, Heluvaskier. Does your own definition differ from anyone else's? What is your definition? Are you only allowed to adopt the definition you're told is correct? Are you capable of original thought, at all?

Go ahead and "work on your own skiing," as you have suggested. Or is it really yours? Hmm.....
post #37 of 47
Quote:
I have no problem with this drawing as it goes nicely with my new Tip-Rockered, Reverse-Camber, Reverse-Sidecut Skis. I got them for $19.95

Oops...right you are, MichaelA. I had not considered that! Of course, those tracks were made by reverse camber, reverse sidecut, rockered skis. Why didn't I think of that? If the sidecut is on the wrong side of the ski, you can make tracks like that. Revolutionary!

wink.gif

Best regards,
Bob
post #38 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbinder View Post



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillA View Post

bbinder,

 

When is your next turkey carving camp? I need all the help I can get.



 Thanks for asking.  At the current time, all of my turkey carving camps are booked for the next 1.5 years.  Sometime during the summer, I will post a list of new camps -- I am sure that they will book quickly.  In the meantime, I am in the process of opening up my new website (tentative address is .anyonecancarveaturkey.com), and my new book "Anyone Can Carve A Turkey".  You will need to pm me in order to to have access to the website forums, and I will not tolerate discussion of other turkey carving styles.  I will soon be revealing the one brand of knives that I consider capable of carving turkeys adequately -- the other knife maunfacturers just don't get it.  Other turkey carving forums spend pages and pages arguing over turkey carving.  They just don't get it.  I have distilled turkey carving to a basic technigue that works.  It works on any size turkey, cooked any style.  Those other so-called turkey carving gurus think that they can carve a turkey and think that they can teach other people how to carve a turkey.  They can't, because they don't get it.  And as a result, the rest of the people in the world who want to learn how to carve a turkey are getting poor instruction and learning the wrong way to do it.



Would you say you've come up with a style to perform bulletproof turkey carves?

 

I also plan on starting a website called youcancarveaturkey.com which will focus a lot on the inclination of the knife holding hand at the start of the turkey carving, especially suitable for competition levels of turkey carving.

post #39 of 47

after reading this im not sure i have ever carved......

post #40 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

Something many may not have considered, though, is that the edge change is not necessarily immediate. There is usually a time and distance delay between the release of the edge(s) from the old turn and the re-engagement of the new edge(s) in the new turn. In fact, most turns begin on the outside edges of the skis--right turns actually begin on the left edges.

How is that possible, you ask? Consider a turn that begins from a traverse, for simplicity's sake. You're traversing from right to left across the hill, leaving clean tracks with your uphill (left) edges.* Now you roll those skis to the right, reducing their edge angle, until they let go of their grip on the mountain ("release"). At that moment, your new turn has begun, since gravity now pulls you down the hill. But you're still on your uphill (left) edges, slightly, just as you would be in a sideslip.

So turns begin (defined here as the inflection point, the moment the curvature of your path begins down the hill, or in the other direction in the case of linked turns) with edge release. And edge release occurs before the skis are completely flat on the snow--again, as a simple sideslip easily proves. So, therefore, turns begin on the outside edges, continue to roll into the turn through "flat," and then, finally, onto their new edges where they may begin to carve the new turn. (And, of course, since they are not even on their inside edges, the skis cannot possibly bend into reverse camber and carve at this point--but they can certainly be guided such that they "track" cleanly, such that your feet point the direction they are pointed along the arc, and such that, the moment the skis re-engage on their new edges, they can begin to bend and carve cleanly.

Note that this delay between edge release and edge/pressure re-engagement will be longer the steeper the hill, and the slower the skier travels. With higher speed, the skier will move further inside the turn earlier, enabling earlier edge engagement.

So even in the most "carved" turns, there is a phase in the transition where the skis are not carving, at least not in the sense of being bent into reverse camber with pressure and edge angle. The phase may be very brief, as in railroad tracks on gentle terrain, or quite drawn out, as in highly completed (across, or even back up, the hill) turns on steep terrain. But it must exist. Even arc-to-arc carved turns involve an edge release. 

 

High level snowboard carvers can lay down tracks with almost no gap between the curves. They must twist the front of the board towards the new turn. I saw this at Aspen Highlands last year. We went and inspected the tracks. Very impressive

post #41 of 47


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by majortato View Post

I also plan on starting a website called youcancarveaturkey.com which will focus a lot on the inclination of the knife holding hand at the start of the turkey carving, especially suitable for competition levels of turkey carving.


If I have to explain to you that this is a flagrant ripoff of my soon to be trademarked turkey carving style, then you just don't get it.  And I'll have to ban you from my soon to be opened website.

post #42 of 47

bbinder,

I feel ripped off. First you said "anyone can.." now I find out I'm supposed to go to camps and spend as many hours on it as Tiger Woods does on golf. (well, maybe we know now he wasn't always golfing??)

The short of it: you misrepresented your teaching. It should be, "anyone who spends days and days  years can carve a turkey"

post #43 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

 

"anyone who spends days and days  years can carve a turkey"



Spends years doing what? th_dunno-1[1].gif

 

Retraction carve, Active weight transfer carve, carved carve, brushed carve, down unweighted carve, what? ?????????

I used to enjoy slicing up the turkey now I find that not only do I not know how and have been doing it incorrectly all these years and I went to the wrong school that I have to buy a new book and learn the "right" way to do it at a new school. I suppose I have to post video also? And there must be some tapes and dvd's I have to have. Right?

post #44 of 47

this thread makes me hungry

post #45 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

bbinder,

I feel ripped off. First you said "anyone can.." now I find out I'm supposed to go to camps and spend as many hours on it as Tiger Woods does on golf. (well, maybe we know now he wasn't always golfing??)

The short of it: you misrepresented your teaching. It should be, "anyone who spends days and days  years can carve a turkey"


Please lose the attitude -- this is not the way to cultivate my favor, and besides I might start to cry.  If you buy my soon to be published book, you will be well on your way to knowing how to carve a turkey.  If you come to just one of my always-sold-out-camps, you will know more about carving a turkey PLUS how to judge good turkey carving better than any of those so-called turkey carving experts at CIA or FCI.  If you don't, then you will just not get it, and you will be doomed to spending the rest of your life thinking that you know how to carve a turkey.  Except that you won't.

post #46 of 47
Quote:
High level snowboard carvers can lay down tracks with almost no gap between the curves. They must twist the front of the board towards the new turn.

Yep--that's true! By twisting the board with their feet and legs, snowboarders can start a new carve with the front of the board before the back of the board has released its edge (in some situations). In effect, they can carve both directions, engaging both the heel and toe edge, at the same time. It is impressive. Their track reveals a "flat spot," where neither edge is engaged, that is shorter than the board or may not exist at all.

Twisting the board is something we cannot do on alpine skis, of course. But we can tip our two skis to opposite edges and accomplish much the same thing.

Best regards,
Bob
post #47 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

 I suspect that it was a minor oversight on MogulMuncher's part . . . 

 

BB, thanks for that very generous interpretation.

 

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