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Get rid of the "Up" move or change your thinking about it? - Page 5

post #121 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

4ster,

 

First off...that is pretty good skiing, anyone should be happy to have those turns.

 

But...on your "up move".  I dont see it as an issue.  To me it looks far more like a symptom of another issue...fix it, and the up will go away.

 

Happy to explain further if you are interested...but it is not a quck fix, and you mentioned above you are not seeking long winded answers.

From you Skidude, I would luv to hear it.  Maybe it would be more appropriate in a PM, since this thread was kinda dead anyway.  If not I am okay with sharing :) .

 

My purpose for posting it here was to see if folks thought the "up move" was appropriate or excessive.  I am beginning to realize that there is cause & effect in play.

 

Thanks,

JF
 

post #122 of 141

To me the issue I see is this:

 

First off, this is very common issue with advanced/expert level skiers:

 

Your “up” is being created by your need to “re-align” yourself before you can begin the new turn. 

 

Let me try to explain:

 

As you end one turn you outside leg is well behind your mass, and as such your outside ankle is well flexed.  Coaches often refer to this as “hanging off the boot”.  As you move through the transition you must get that outside foot at least even with the inside foot, otherwise you hip is locked, and your foot is locked, and all kinds of weird stuff happens.  Hence the need to re-align before a new turn can begin.  The easiest and most natural way to do that is to extend…which you do.  This brings your body back to a square neutral position allowing you to begin the new turn.

 

So the question now is:

 

“Why is the outside leg so far back in the first place?”

 

Well this is caused by the mechanics of your turn initiation.  When you begin the new turn, you are pivoting both legs…”statically”…this results in the outside foot falling behind, and the inside one going ahead.  This is often referred to as a “lead change”.  Now this “lead change” is kinda good, because now your outside foot has gone back, or put another way, your weight, relatively speaking, has gone forward.  This forward movement of our weight applies tip pressure, which is good of course for starting turns.  So this approach does work, and thus used by many strong skiers.

 

So the question now is:

 

“So what’s the catch?”

 

Well the catch is, your mass is being supported by the ski boot, and not your foot, thus you are kinda “stuck”.  Your ability to uncouple for/aft balance adjustments with up/down is limited.  This causes problems in rutted race courses, moguls, and of course transitions.  Sure you are stuck forward, which is better then being stuck back…but if you want to go to the next level the ability to make subtle fore/aft adjustments at all times is critical.  Being able to uncouple fore/aft from up/down is one of the core building blocks of great skiing.

 

“So what should you do?”

 

Change your turn initiation mechanics.  This is easy to show, hard to explain with words, but if you look at the videos of the guy in the yellow pants his turn initiations are brilliant.  Notice how his outside foot never gets caught behind?  Notice how yours goes back almost as soon as you start the turn?  Your first 2 turns show this the clearest. 

 

When “yellow pants” initiates, he is “placing his feet” in such a manner that they will support his mass as it moves into the new turn…he is not relying on the boot cuff or ski tip for balance at all.  Hence think of pivoting as more then just turning the legs in the hip socket, but also moving the feet forward on an arc.  I know people will jump on this…but think of the move as being similar in action to an up-stem…but with both feet.  The video by Tog of the Slalom skier in the white suit shows this well also.  The feet turn AND move forward on an arc to always stay in a position to support the COM.

 

Even if they had no ski tips or stiff boots, they would not fall forward at the start of the turn because their feet are supporting their mass…they are not relying on the ski tip or boot cuff to hold them up…you are (albeit in a very skilled and refined way).

 

“So if I do this I won’t have a lead change anymore?”

 

No…you will still have a lead change, just not as great.

 

“So if I do this, then how do I get the required tip pressure?”

 

You achieve that by pushing down on the ball of the foot.  This is kinda the opposite of what many skiers do…most create tip pressure by pushing into the boot cuff…but creating tip pressure via pushing the ball of the foot down, or “point your toes” etc, is far more effective because it allows the up/down, fore/aft, adjustments to remain independent. 

 

 

This takes work to fix, but it is worth it.  For the record, it is my view that this is the single biggest mistake that cause L3s to fail their L4. 

post #123 of 141

Excellent feedback skidudeicon14.gif

post #124 of 141

4ster - you show a very traditional up-down-movementpattern. You extend to unweight. You flex through out the turn in order to be able to extend. But that is not what is slightly wrong with your skiing if I may say so. I made a frame capture of you in the belly of the turn. Lets take a look:

 

4ster001.jpg

 

Check out how you stay very square to your skis and how your hips rotate out in the turn. Causing your outside ski to skidd out. Leaving behind you a very wide track. After the frame capture above your outside ski stops wasching  out and you throw your hips, butt, backpack and your ski tails in the opposite direction. And turn your shoulders into the turn causing everything to rotate out in the new turn. Normally you do this more subtly as in the other video but here you are skiing in snow with little sideways gripp, with a back pack and you are caught in a spot where the terrain flattens out suddenly.

 

In the other video its also very clear that your outside ski is skidding out. It comes from you being square to your skis and rotating your hips out in the turn. It has little to do with the up and down movement. Or the traditional flexion-extention pattern. It has more to do with stuff Skidude mentioned in his posting here above. You asked if there is any difference in the turning at the top of the run compared with the bottom. Im not sure about it but one difference is that its steeper at the top. This makes the skidding of the ski tails more accentuated.

post #125 of 141

I was going to mention the excessive tip lead in 4ster, but I was not going to make it the cause of the up move. Skidude might well have a great point there. From my perspective, somebody at 4ster's level should be able to do good retraction turns. If that is indeed the case, then learn to make those turns the natural go-to turn and the up move will go away.

 

I am always wondering why people don't post video with their best retraction turns and start from there. It would allow for MA that corrects an attempted move, rather than providing MA for a totally different approach and then take guesses (educated or otherwise) as to why it is all wrong.

post #126 of 141

Good to have you back Skidude.

post #127 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

Good to have you back Skidude.

I am honored to be the one to bring him out of retirement ;).

 

Thanks for the responses guys!  I don't have much time right now (going skiing), but will be back this evening.

 

Thanks,

JF
 

post #128 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post

I am always wondering why people don't post video with their best retraction turns and start from there. It would allow for MA that corrects an attempted move, rather than providing MA for a totally different approach and then take guesses (educated or otherwise) as to why it is all wrong.



Its really simple. The most common reason for this is that people dont have such videos. I dont want to be rude or anything but the discussion here on the internet can easily trick people in to believing stuff about thier and others skiing and skiing theories that simply doesent lign up with the turth. In every MA there should be at least at request videos and photos provided backing up wild and not so wild theories and consepts. 

post #129 of 141

tdk6: I dont want to be rude or anything but the discussion here on the internet can easily trick people in to believing stuff about thier and others skiing and skiing theories that simply doesent lign up with the turth. 

 

I have to agree, but unfortunately, this is how it goes on the Web.

post #130 of 141

Okay, I am back home & beginning to thaw out.

 

After skimming through the responses this morning, I was able to spend a few runs this afternoon playing with a couple of ideas.  I understand that Rome wasn't built in a day & in my case it may take decades redface.gif.  Also keep in mind that although I ski alot, I rarely ski on groomers unless the off piste conditions are just totally undesirable.

 

I apologize for the poor video quality, but here are a couple of short clips from today.

 

The first ones focus was an attempt to use a bit of flexing as I changed edges.  I am pretty uncoordinated, so thinking about tipping the feet at the same time was just too much to integrate at this time.  It sure felt different than the other turns, but the outcome does not appear that dramatic.  What do you all think?

 

 

This second one I focused completely on dropping my hips early to the inside.  No thoughts of tipping the feet at all.  These turns felt a bit static to me, but they felt much different than my typical turns.  What do you see? Are these changes effective, or is it the same old?  I know these are slight tweaks, but the process will be one step at a time.

 

 

Thanks,

JF

post #131 of 141

4ster, when Im looking at both videos I see the same thing. Your outside ski drifts away from underneath you at the end of the turn. It can be an old ingrained habbit of the step turn. Thats what I suspect. Try to ski with your skis more together as one and to platform over both skis simultaniously. Try to flex and extend both legs at the same time.

post #132 of 141



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ster View Post

  What do you all think?

 Getting there, good solid skiing.  Some things I noticed at times:

You can increase the flexing to release further, Try to exagerate to get a feeling for it.

Lack of tipping and pullback of the inner foot. I think this causes the ski divergence.

You are reaching forward to plant. Push the inner hand forward instead and just tap the pole more to the side than in front.

post #133 of 141

Thanks Jamt & TDK,

 

I would like to try & get the exagerated flexing on video, I play with that often.  I have also played with the narrower stance, I have a difficult time with it when I start getting bigger angles or the snow is firm.

 

Thanks,

JF

post #134 of 141

tdk6: Your outside ski drifts away from underneath you at the end of the turn. It can be an old ingrained habbit of the step turn.

 

Exactly what I see. There is no way you can flex to release, when you old outside foot drifts like that (and is also far behind the inside foot due to a big tip lead). You are left with no choice but to stand up on the old inside (new outside) foot beofore you can even develop the new turn.

post #135 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post

tdk6: Your outside ski drifts away from underneath you at the end of the turn. It can be an old ingrained habbit of the step turn.

 

Exactly what I see. There is no way you can flex to release, when you old outside foot drifts like that (and is also far behind the inside foot due to a big tip lead). You are left with no choice but to stand up on the old inside (new outside) foot beofore you can even develop the new turn.



Yes, exactly, outside ski skidding out like that needs to be solved. 4ster, stance width needs to be altered depending on how and where you ski. Thats annother thing for you to look into.

post #136 of 141

Today I made some turns with a conscious effort NOT to extend into the new turn off of the old inside leg.

 

vlcsnap-2011-02-06-16h30m11s181.jpgvlcsnap-2011-02-06-16h31m08s208.jpgvlcsnap-2011-02-06-16h31m20s76.jpgvlcsnap-2011-02-06-16h31m35s226.jpgvlcsnap-2011-02-06-16h32m14s107.jpgvlcsnap-2011-02-06-16h32m25s211.jpgvlcsnap-2011-02-06-16h32m34s61.jpgvlcsnap-2011-02-06-16h32m45s176.jpgvlcsnap-2011-02-06-16h32m56s22.jpgvlcsnap-2011-02-06-16h33m07s119.jpgvlcsnap-2011-02-06-16h33m07s119.jpgvlcsnap-2011-02-06-16h34m30s157.jpgvlcsnap-2011-02-06-16h34m37s9.jpgvlcsnap-2011-02-06-16h34m52s102.jpgvlcsnap-2011-02-06-16h35m02s254.jpgvlcsnap-2011-02-06-16h35m14s93.jpgvlcsnap-2011-02-06-16h35m26s231.jpgvlcsnap-2011-02-06-16h35m38s76.jpgvlcsnap-2011-02-06-16h35m46s187.jpgvlcsnap-2011-02-06-16h35m55s9.jpg

 

Everything seems good up until about frame #11, then that huge spread in the legs appears th_dunno-1[1].gif.

 

I have some video doing some RR track turns with some Schlopy's thrown in that I will post shortly. 

 

The input has been helpful for me to see that it is time to work on a few things in my skiing.  I have a pretty good idea of what I am trying to do, it is just trying to get my body to assimilate.

 

Thanks,

JF

 

post #137 of 141

Here is the video.  Some hands on knee railers. focusing on releasing the new inside ski, & some Schlopy's thrown in,

 

 

Thanks,

JF

post #138 of 141

Good video

 

As I suspected earlier:

 

Look at your outside foot placement in the first "railer" turns...notice what changes at around 13 seconds or so...notice the change in outside foot placment.  Your outside foot starts the turns well back of your inside foot after 13 second mark.  Sublte, but obvious if you know what to look for.  It is ok again from about 31-38 (roughly), then tanks again after that....basically the outside foot drops back as you go for more "umph".

 

I suspect the cause is, in the first turns you are just tipping the skis...as the speed builds you begin to apply tip pressure via pushing into the cuff of the boot.  Bad Bad Bad. 

 

Place the feet so they support the COM, then apply tip pressure via pushing down on the ball of the foot....this will actually "open" your ankle.  Not close it.  I noticed again somewhere after you do the "Shoulder Check", and again I assume the speed drops a bit you go back to just tipping and the outside foot placement is better (31 to 38 seconds roughly), then the speed builds slightly again, and you go back to applying tip pressure via the boot cuff....and the foot falls back....this is killing you.  And is the root cause of many of the symptoms mentioned by others.

post #139 of 141

JF - great photos and video. BTW, you never participated in this discussion:

http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/100225/how-to-carve-like-a-pro

In that thread we discussed exactly the same stuff you are now puzzled about. Dude is probably right in all that he is saying but let me add something. A wc skier that has been injured but is now back to skiing said he needed a new thongue to his boots. Softer so that it would not hurt his leg that much. I asked him if he is pressuring the thongue of his boots at any time in the turn and he said no. No, you dont do that any more. So I asked him why he had so much trouble with his fractured leg pressing on the boot. He became silent and after a while he replied that offcource you pressure the thongue of the boot but early on only. Then you move back. He said it was like jetting. And a thin line between good turn and ending up on his back. That explains IMO that when you start the turn and your legs are bent you pressure the thongue of the boot but as you proggress and forces build up you move the pressure to the ball of your foot.

 

In the video I see you extend into every transition.

 

In the photomontage you also extend into transition.

 

Im not saying its a bad thing but just pointing out what I see.

post #140 of 141

Quote:

Place the feet so they support the COM, then apply tip pressure via pushing down on the ball of the foot....this will actually "open" your ankle.


I will make an effort to do this.  Please clarify the bolded part?

 

Skidude, this is why I post this stuff.  It is great to have some discerning eyes.  I would not have seen that in this video, although it is certainly a common theme (closed ankle) in the others.

 

 

TDK, I don't think I have seen the other thread.  I will take a look.

 

I am not so sure about the outside ski "skidding out" as you & TomB point out.  I will have to pay closer attention to that.

 

Thanks,

JF

post #141 of 141

It just means what it says....again easy to show, hard to explain with words....but you know you are doing it right if you feel your mass on the bottom of your foot...if you feel your mass on the boot cuff, then clearly your foot is too far back to be supporting your mass...the boot/ski tip is.

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