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Skis feel "squirly"

post #1 of 34
Thread Starter 

After skiing my new Prophet 90's for a few days I've noticed that on less steep terrain, like cat tracks, where little turning is needed, the skis tend to move back and forth. The best word I can think of to describe it is that they are squirlly. However, on steeper terrain the skis perform great. Is there any exclamation for this "squirlyness" I'm experiencin?

 

Thanks

post #2 of 34

This is what you get when a ski with decent sidecut tries to go straight.  A decently shaped ski likes to be on edge most of the time, then it feels stable. On steep terrain you hardly ever let the ski run straight (I hope ;-)), so you dont have this problem.  If I recall, prophet 90 has a relatively small turn radius, so it will suffer from this problem.  

post #3 of 34

I do not think I could have said it better. 

post #4 of 34

For my daily driver, I will only ride a ski that does not do that. It's annoying and slow. Legend Pro Rider does NOT do that at all. nice. and fast.

 

oh, and Alex explained it accurately. I think the tail with a lot of sidecut may be the culprit, but have no real data to prove it.

post #5 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by willski4food View Post

Buy some 220cm 40meter radius DH skis.  That should take care of the problem.  smile.gif



220 was the ladies size.

post #6 of 34

A railed ski will also feer squirly, always check the tune if the ski is reacting unusually "squirly" or not as totally expected. 

post #7 of 34

 

Phil, skis that drift side to side when run flat on packed snow are pretty much the state of every ski with a lot of sidecut, wouldn't you say? Is there any exception? what models?

 

I mentioned the LPas a ski that does not have a lot of side cut and skis well running flat and straight on packed snow. any others that run true when flat on firm snow? The Sixth Sense Huge is pretty true when straight running. I'll check specifically next time out.

post #8 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

 

Phil, skis that drift side to side when run flat on packed snow are pretty much the state of every ski with a lot of sidecut, wouldn't you say? Is there any exception? what models?

 

I mentioned the LPas a ski that does not have a lot of side cut and skis well running flat and straight on packed snow. any others that run true when flat on firm snow? The Sixth Sense Huge is pretty true when straight running. I'll check specifically next time out.


I think there is a relation that comes into play, relation of waist to sidecut, kinda getting back to the wide carver conversation, a 17M (example number) will fell "squirlier" in a 70mm waist than a 90mm waist due to the platform width. And also the relationship to the sidecut and speed expectations. A Prophet was mentioned above, a P115 has a ton more shape than most other 115 wide skis, while some might find that ski "squirly" it meat all of my needs at the speeds I was skiing it and it never felt squirly to me. 

post #9 of 34

That squirelly feeling is your skis hunting for turns.  The sidecut interacts with unevenness in the snow just like it would to being tipped on edge.  Running the ski flat makes it alternate with whatever the left edge goes over and whatever the right edge goes over.  The poor ski doesn't know what to do, so it trys to turn every which way.  Tell it what to do; tip it onto one edge or the other.

post #10 of 34

Definitely check the tune to rule out that possibility. I'm wondering if for some, boots and stance issues could be a contributing factor?

post #11 of 34
I think it helps to make very gradual, long radius turns so you're going *almost* straight rather than perfectly straight. Then the skis are slightly on edge most of the time and not squirrely.
post #12 of 34

All skis will do that if they are flat on the snow.

 

Most people ride the inside edges of their skis while straight running although most do not know they are doing it. Typical feet/legs in typical ski boots will have the skier on his or her big toe edges a little bit. To experience gliding most of us must spread our knees apart. Did this happen with the same boots on other skis? If you don't enjoy gliding, you might want to adjust the boot's cant. Simply spreading your legs a little farther apart while straight running might do the trick.

post #13 of 34

.

some popular skis with straighter sidecut: Kaestle MX128, Salomon Czar, Legend Pro Rider, Bliz Kreitler Pro (or current model of it), Rossi 112 Pro, and any ski with approx 20-23mm cut to tip and 10-18mm cut to tail or similar.

post #14 of 34
Thread Starter 

Well thanks guys. I'm surprised I haven't read more about his online in all my research. I can live with it, its not a big deal as I don't spend much time off my edges. On my old skis, with the same boots, I didn't experience as much squirllyness, so I doubt my boots are at fault. What should I look for in the tune, in case something is off.

post #15 of 34

Depends on the length you are skiing but the 186 has a R19.5m so it is not a really turny ski for its length/ waist dimension really.

 

Check your tune, perhaps ensure that the tips and tails are de-tuned (ie made less sharp than the rest of the edge) to at least the engagement point of the tip (and tail). Quite often a wider ski that has not been de-tuned properly will be trying to 'hook up' when you do not really want it to. There could also be a fault in the tune, like a burr on the edge (do not assume that the factory tune was true - even if it leaves the factory 'true' stuff settles and moves in transit/ storage - always get your skis tuned to your specs before you skis them). Could be something as benign as too little base bevel (eg 0.7 instead of 1) or too much side bevel (or really just less base bevel or more side bevel that you are used to). A lot of stock skis come with as much as 1.5/2 base and only 1 side.

 

Also get your leg/foot/ boot alignment checked as moving to a wider waisted ski quickly indicates any stance deficiencies that may cause that 'squirrely' feeling.

 

Hope all those ideas/ possible areas to check helps. Have fun.

post #16 of 34

Not the ski,,,couple responders got this one right...your sidecut is always looking for a turn,,when you pressure an edge-any of the four-your skis will try to turn INTO the pressured edge..on a runout or cat...you are probably sitting back and applying pressure intermittently to the tips...not realizing it...two things to consider...one-keep your hends forward to keep your weight on the tips, and keep you knees neutral...which will also keep your edges neutral-i.e. a flat ski...

If this doesn't do the job, then slowly keep changing edges and turn on the runout or cat in long, slow turns...

you have to stay balanced and in an athletic stance on a shaped ski..even a slow one...

it isn't happening on the steeps because you are poised, balanced and weighted forward on the steeps..or you would crash and burn...

Good Luck

post #17 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laser View Post

On my old skis, with the same boots, I didn't experience as much squirllyness, so I doubt my boots are at fault.

What were your old skis?
post #18 of 34

It doesn't sound like the edges are catching. Skis wander when the edges are NOT engaged. If you are riding flat bases, the ski will act as you describe. Sidecut is not a factor.

post #19 of 34
Thread Starter 

I got them tuned at a shop before I used them for the first time, and I'm on the 179.

 

swscoo, you're right I do sometimes relax more when I'm on flatter terrain, but I've tried moving my weight all around to stop the swerving and it hasn't.

 

My old skis were the Rossi Actys 300, nothing fancy at all.

post #20 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

 The poor ski doesn't know what to do, so it trys to turn every which way.  Tell it what to do; tip it onto one edge or the other.


Ghost's post was exactly my thought when I first read the OP yesterday and didn't feel like replying at the time.

post #21 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laser View Post

I got them tuned at a shop before I used them for the first time, and I'm on the 179.

 

swscoo, you're right I do sometimes relax more when I'm on flatter terrain, but I've tried moving my weight all around to stop the swerving and it hasn't.

 

My old skis were the Rossi Actys 300, nothing fancy at all.


The tune probably included base beveling, which will allow the skis to glide as I've described above. But your old skis probably had beveled edges too. If your skis are swerving, my first guess that you were gliding on flat skis is probably wrong. I guess the edges are grabbing as others have suggested. When your skis are gliding they will only be effected by gravity and inertia which can make them feel squirelly. 

 

Your old skis were much narrower than your new ones. The wider skis will be harder to control on packed surfaces, but not too difficult. Don't worry, you'll get used to them.

 

Skis transitioning from flat to edged without the skier's intent causes a disconcerting feeling of loss of control. Ghost's (and other's) suggestion to intentionally keep them on edge describing long arcs is likely the correct prescription. It should be possible to go pretty straight while keeping skis edged at a low angle and changing which edges you are on as needed to keep you moving more or less in the desired direction.
 

post #22 of 34

Even if you think you're running them flat, the cant of your boot might be ever so slightly engaging the edge. I had a good instructor a couple years ago (when I started riding twins) who kept on me to keep my skis on edge. That made all the difference. It's a work out, but perpetually keeping these skis on edge, constantly tipping them from one side to the other keeps them happy, stable, and faster. Just my $0.02.

post #23 of 34
- check bases

- notice that this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinFromSA View Post

Even if you think you're running them flat, the cant of your boot might be ever so slightly engaging the edge.

would be affected by the width of the skis and the width of your stance on the new skis. Your boots are not in the clear yet.

- FWIW, I was totally expecting Noodler to notice a possible mount position difference between the LPs and the Rossis.
post #24 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post

- FWIW, I was totally expecting Noodler to notice a possible mount position difference between the LPs and the Rossis.



Thanks for the Monday morning chuckle... rolleyes.gif

post #25 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post

Definitely check the tune to rule out that possibility. I'm wondering if for some, boots and stance issues could be a contributing factor?



I agree and check to see if you need canting, which depending on your stance could cause the problem

post #26 of 34

Gosh, I'm frankly surprised nobody has sorted this issue out. The solution is dead simple...

What is going on is that you have a tendancy to ski along with your weight on the balls of your feet, this is asking the skis to initiate a turn, which they are obediantly trying to do.

Answer...bend your knees and ankles and transfer your down force to a point just at the front edge of your heels, kinda like trying to squash a marshmallow under your heel bingo...instant stability. (another approach is to lift up the balls of you feet, if that makes more sense, two versions of the same explanation)

Have a play, enjoy.

By the way, you should be on that spot most of the time anyway, esp during the last half of a turn.

post #27 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laser View Post

After skiing my new Prophet 90's for a few days I've noticed that on less steep terrain, like cat tracks, where little turning is needed, the skis tend to move back and forth. The best word I can think of to describe it is that they are squirlly. However, on steeper terrain the skis perform great. Is there any exclamation for this "squirlyness" I'm experiencin?

 

Thanks



Any ski will do that.  I go hauling mail, and on a runout going flat, one ski may be wiggeling all over the place.  If you have a good tune, don't panic, just get used to it!   Don't let it sacre you!

A deep downhill liner grind will help that a bunch, but you will find it hard, if not impossibile to piviot a ski with that grind.  Other than that, stay on one edge, or the other.  Don't ride totally flat.

One of the hardest skills to master,  is to glide flat at high speed.  The best downhill racers have it down pretty good.

post #28 of 34

I think Sam nailed it, if you run straight and all your weight is very far forward this can easily happen. Happens if I'm fooling with pole straps or something and hang off the tongues of my boots.

 

I doubt it's the sidecut because it's a 17.9m radius ski that is fat and probably doesn't have the stand height of a true carver. I haven't generally had a problem on cat tracks with a 17m ski that is 66mm underfoot and has a riser plate on it.

 

Could be the tune though as others pointed out. If it's not the tune you might want to look at the binding stand height difference between heel and toe (delta) to see if that is putting you more forward than your old setup.

post #29 of 34
Thread Starter 
Thanks for all the input guys I appreciate it. I think that the most reasonable solution for me is just to make long turns, as I don't want to change my setup which works so well everywhere but cat tracks. Yesterday I tried moving my weight all around, but couldn't seem to find a spot that would stop the wandering.
post #30 of 34

I've skied a number of mid-fats (85-90mm) skis recently and have found that most have this tendency--they don't like to run flat. This may simply be a matter of perception. I think the advent of shaped skis has heightened this perception (in my case, anyway). Because we have come to expect modern skis to carve such great arcs, we like the feeling of being "on rails" and simply aren't used to running skis flat anymore. Wider skis accentuate the tendency of skis to wander when flat.  Rather than learning to glide we just tend to put our skis on edge all the time. It seems squirrelly when we don't.

 

I noticed recently that in all the reading and talking and learning I've been doing in the past few years, I don't recall anyone ever talking about the technique of "gliding." I don't travel much in racing circles anymore so maybe they talk about it more than free skiers (it makes sense that they might). It used to be that skilled gliding was the winning difference on less technical race courses. Maybe we're just not used to gliding anymore. It's a thought.

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