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Let's be honest - Page 2

post #31 of 42

"The dialog between instructor and student should start off with, ' Good morning. I am xxxx. What would you like to work on? I am here to facilitate your learning experience."

 

If I signed up for a lesson and that was the very first thing the instructor said to me, I would probably just bust out laughing.

 

 

 

 

post #32 of 42

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post


I am guessing that now many of you now agree with skiingaround that "some instructors take the ATS learning styles......too seriously."  Well,  it's worked pretty well for me so far.


UL- I was the one who wrote that original comment, not skiingaround.  What I meant by that is that some instructors interpret it in an over simplified way, and try to teach to students in only one learning style.  One thing Joan Heaton taught me is that everyone needs learn in every earning style, but you don't always get that insight from the manuals.  The learning styles are simplification of the Kolb model, and maybe they are oversimplified to the point that they cause some misunderstanding.


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post

 

Quote:
I think some instructors take the ATS learning styles (thinker/feeler/watcher/doer) too seriously.  It's useful for class management to identify the students' predispositions,

Researchers have never found anyone who has one of the four famous learning styles.  There is no such thing.  It is a widely distributed myth.  People do have different abilities.  Most importantly, certain things to learn are best shown by feeling, others by watching, etc.

 

SSG- Actually, everyone has all four of the learning styles.  Learning is a complex activity, and there are any number of learning models, and the ATS learning styles model is just one of them.  It's not even the only learning model you will find in the ATS manuals.  I understand there are differences of opinions regarding the Kolb model and other models as well.  I'm not a trained teacher, but the Kolb model has helped me develop an organized approach to teaching both skiing and math, so I'm sticking with it until I learn something more useful. 


BK

post #33 of 42

 

Hi,

 

As a student (rather than an instructor) I totally agree with the below. When I'm having a one-on-one lesson I love talking through the technical stuff on the chairlift. (I personally like the technical stuff, maybe cos I used to be a physicist). To me this is the perfect lesson. Meanwhile, if I'm in a group class I take a different approach, I see these as a little more passive. Obviously if I'm struggling with something then I'd expect the instructor to give some tips, and if they didn't I'd be asking for some. But I wouldn't be discussing the finer points whilst on the slope.

 

I think what makes a great instructor (like any teacher) is working out what the students needs and what they want, and varying the approach accordingly. So far I've always been lucky, I think the passion that most of you guys have goes a long way.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post

 

this is why IMO guiding people though tasks and asking them what if any they felt differently is sometimes the best way  to do coaching. Feeling a positive change is great but quite often feeling different in way that eventually feels better is desirable, it also let most overthinkers answer their own questions.

 

IN one on one private I will explain what ever you want for as long as you want but I will try to do it on the chairlift. In group lesson the overthinker are quite frankly annoying to the other students, I really wish they wouldnt be so damn stubborn but I usually give in and make them my chairlift buddy to explain deeper with out confusing the easily confused.

 

Just remember noone has ever gotten better by standing on the side of the trail and talking.

post #34 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post
  Maybe half the students get some benefit from guided discovery.  I do not.  It is a waste of time for me and many others.  I also find many progressions to be pointless wastes of time.  Briefly and succinctly tell me what you want.  Briefly and succinctly tell me how to do it.  Give me time to visualize myself doing it.  Observe my trial, give me corrections or a progression from that point, and let's get on with it.


SSG- It seems you have your own simplified learning model: tell me what to do, let me think about it, watch me do it, tell me if I did right.  As I read it, it seems to me that it is completely directed by the teacher.  The value of guided discovery is that it gets away form the teacher directed approach, and lets the student discovers answers on his/her own.  The highest goal of education should be to develop independent learners, not students who rely on teachers or coaches for validation. In skiing that means learning to evaluate your own internal feedback, in math it means learning the judge the truth of an idea independently.  I'm sure you understand how you learn best, but maybe your description is an oversimplification that leaves out one or more of the critical steps.

 

BK

post #35 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoMan View Post

"The dialog between instructor and student should start off with, ' Good morning. I am xxxx. What would you like to work on? I am here to facilitate your learning experience."

 

If I signed up for a lesson and that was the very first thing the instructor said to me, I would probably just bust out laughing.

 

 

 

 


I start lessons that way all the time, but I hardly listen to the answer.  Most students don't know what they don't know, so they can't tell me what they need to work on.  What they don't know is that the reason they can't ski moguls/ice/powder/trees is that they just don't have the fundamental skills to do it.  Students think they can learn some special secret movement that will allow them to ski like Ligety or Stenmark, but the truth is all skiers progress fastest when they focus on simple fundamental skills. That's true at all levels, but it's particularly obvious with intermediates.  That's why your carving lesson will begin with side steps, and your mogul lesson might begin with side slips on a groomer.

 

BK

post #36 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocG View Post

Speaking as a professional educator (for almost 20 years...) The advice I would give ski/snowboard instructors is the model school teachers are using now with great success. 

 

First, model the skill.  Make sure everyone has some understanding.

Second, guided practice- i.e., have them ski with you, with productive criticism, correcting only what the skill that you are teaching.

Third, let the students go ski.

 

This method works with a > 95% success rate, regardless of subject matter or student (including adaptive/special needs)...something to think about.

 

My $0.02

 

Doc

The ATS teaching model describe
 

Introduction

Demonstration

Practice

Feedback

Summary

 

This is how most ski/snowboard instructors are taught to teach. It fits within the model you describe.

post #37 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post


I am guessing that now many of you now agree with skiingaround that "some instructors take the ATS learning styles......too seriously."  Well,  it's worked pretty well for me so far.


UL- I was the one who wrote that original comment, not skiingaround. 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post

 

Quote:
I think some instructors take the ATS learning styles (thinker/feeler/watcher/doer) too seriously.  It's useful for class management to identify the students' predispositions,

 

 

BK


Ah.......I am a victim of the "nameless" quote box and insufficient levels of coffee before posting.............my bad.

 

At least we are on the same page with teaching and learning styles BK.

post #38 of 42

 


Contesstant stated a key point - a students desire to know "WHY" they are being taught/told to do/learn a particular thing. A great opportunity for anyone teaching anything to provide insight,advantages & incentive. The differences between simply stopping a horse vs. a balanced halt are huge. Purposes, advantages, and how it's done reflect understanding, skills and ability to progress from to a much higher level of performance. One makes riding harder, the other makes riding easier though requires developing more skills, balance and discipline. Instructors need to define the two easy ways and know how to present the skill with the motivating WHY simply. Less thought and effort now or the other easy way of more effort of skill development now for safer easier higher level skiing that results a bit later.
post #39 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defcon View Post

I think people are over analyzing this. Most people *do not* want to become good skiers, or learn the correct technique. All they care about is going to the slopes, getting down and then going home. Once they acquire enough 'skills' to do so without falling down every other turn or being scared of the blues, its 'good enough' and they see no need to spend money on lessons/books etc.

 

Its the same in every other sport - how many intermediate tennis players or dancers take lessons - small to none. Only those who are motivated, driven and want to conquer the tougher slopes or are perfectionists will want to improve. Skiing is not that hard - most everyone can learn to make skidded turns, get down and stay on their feet.


I agree that this is true for most skiers. The problem is that this still leaves a lot of skiers that do show up for lessons that want to learn the "right" way to ski or to make "better" turns. These people don't realize that I'm not really wearing a helmet, it's just that I've already pulled all the hair off my head from hearing this over and over again.  With a little more Q&A and watching a couple turns I can work out a lesson plan. They get kudos for describing their needs simply, but sometimes we do no need some discussion to make progress.

 

Moguls and ice are a lot harder than a backhand and a top spin lob and they hurt a lot more when you screw them up. That's what I call motivation!

post #40 of 42


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoMan View Post

"The dialog between instructor and student should start off with, ' Good morning. I am xxxx. What would you like to work on? I am here to facilitate your learning experience."

 

If I signed up for a lesson and that was the very first thing the instructor said to me, I would probably just bust out laughing.

 

 

 

 


I start lessons that way all the time, but I hardly listen to the answer.  Most students don't know what they don't know, so they can't tell me what they need to work on.  What they don't know is that the reason they can't ski moguls/ice/powder/trees is that they just don't have the fundamental skills to do it.  Students think they can learn some special secret movement that will allow them to ski like Ligety or Stenmark, but the truth is all skiers progress fastest when they focus on simple fundamental skills. That's true at all levels, but it's particularly obvious with intermediates.  That's why your carving lesson will begin with side steps, and your mogul lesson might begin with side slips on a groomer.

 

BK


I start most of my non-beginner lessons that way and listen hard to the answer. One time the answer was "Oh I don't want  to learn anything. All my skiing friends are dead. I just want someone to ski with."  Ok - that one was easy. Sometimes it takes a few tries to get to a meaningful answer, but everyone has a reason for taking a lesson. In addition to asking up front, I also make sure in the lesson summary that everyone got what they came for - or else the lesson keeps going.

post #41 of 42


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoMan View Post

"The dialog between instructor and student should start off with, ' Good morning. I am xxxx. What would you like to work on? I am here to facilitate your learning experience."

 

If I signed up for a lesson and that was the very first thing the instructor said to me, I would probably just bust out laughing.

 

 

 

 


I start lessons that way all the time, but I hardly listen to the answer.  Most students don't know what they don't know, so they can't tell me what they need to work on.  What they don't know is that the reason they can't ski moguls/ice/powder/trees is that they just don't have the fundamental skills to do it.  Students think they can learn some special secret movement that will allow them to ski like Ligety or Stenmark, but the truth is all skiers progress fastest when they focus on simple fundamental skills. That's true at all levels, but it's particularly obvious with intermediates.  That's why your carving lesson will begin with side steps, and your mogul lesson might begin with side slips on a groomer.

 

BK


I start most of my non-beginner lessons that way and listen hard to the answer. One time the answer was "Oh I don't want  to learn anything. All my skiing friends are dead. I just want someone to ski with."  Ok - that one was easy. Sometimes it takes a few tries to get to a meaningful answer, but everyone has a reason for taking a lesson. In addition to asking up front, I also make sure in the lesson summary that everyone got what they came for - or else the lesson keeps going.


When I teach math, I never ask what anyone wants to learn,  I am the one who did the work to learn what is important, and I tell them what they need to learn.  That's why teaching math is better than teaching skiing.  That part and the comfortable shoes.

In skiing, I start with the question "what do you want to do?"  The answer is always that they want to ski like me, or some variation of that.  My response is always "If you want to ski like me, you need to do what I did to learn it."  It doesn't matter what they want to do, whether it's ski steeper terrain or powder or moguls, the limitation in their skiing is always the result of some fundamental skill defect.  The lesson addresses the goal by working on the fundamental skill, so the lesson plan is determined by the skill that I identify more than by the student's goal. That brings it all back to the same approach I used in my math classes.

A lot of people are not patient enough to work on fundamentals, but that's the only way to make any real progress.

 

BK

post #42 of 42

Well said Bode, although my second question (after asking how I may serve them) is to ask  what is giving them trouble as they ski? Eventually this line of questions leads to a fundamental skill set that needs work. It also gives me an insight into their level of understanding of the sport. Having a clearer understanding of that allows me to offer advice at their level. They may not know what they don't know but they always know what isn't working for them and why they came to ski school in the first place.

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