Ski Stance

Most people would think OMG hes gunna fall catch him fast!!!

But at our house its all part of becomming a better skiier at what ever age. "QUICK HUNNY GET THE CAMERA OUT HES GUNNA WHIPE BIG TIME!!!"

Nice stance LS did you have him practice before you told him to go down standing up or is this just showing my grandson has a natural chance of survival?? gramma darwin.

you are right though looks pretty natural to me.

It's not a 'Proper SKI Stance' it's a Proper ATHLETIC Stance.

Thats a pretty heavy duty snow plow on the guy in the net!!!But he is wearing all his protective gear!!

It is also a great illustration of how we naturally tend to get in the "back seat" :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ak71 

It is also a great illustration of how we naturally tend to get in the "back seat" :)

Naw I think its just a loaded diaper causing him to have to fight gravity!!
 

that hockey goalie is totally A-framing!!!

Patrick Roy, Patrick Roy, Patrick Roy, he has a name! Use it reverently.

Hall of Famer to be Patrick Roy.  Conn Smythe Trophy winning Patrick Roy.  Goalie god Patrick Roy

 I can't for the life of me understand how they don't feel and see the benefits of the balanced position.

Because you have been utilizing this stance for quite some time now and they have not?

Also, consider that you are likely in well-fitting boots that offer good control whereas many of your students feet are probably swimming around in rental boots and they are on dry skis with extremely poor tunes. The heels represent the one sure place of safety and control.

If you were wearing a pair of sloppy over sized shoes and someone taped a pair of 2x4's to them and then pushed you down a small grade, you natural instinct and reaction would be to pull back and fight gravity, not go with it. I guarantee that you would not stand upright with your arms forward and your waist and knees slightly bent in a prepared position. Your initial feeling of loss of control and being taken for a ride would trigger an automatic and instinctual reaction to pull back. Your gut reaction would not be "This is fun",  it would be "Holy sh*t !"

When you are new to the sport and have what feels like slippery 2x4's under your feet, you are experiencing new sensations and an intimidating feeling of being out of control on a slippery surface--this is in addition to the trashy rental boots. Everyone has to get over this natural inclination to pull back. It's not until you loosen up enough to not always be pulling back that you will realize the benefit of the athletic balanced stance and have the confidence to put yourself in one. An instructor telling you to do it means nothing. It has to be experienced by the individual before it will finally process. The young and fearless may pick this up relatively quickly in a day or two. With older initiates who start off as adults, it's probably going to take time and possibly years. Instruction will then be beneficial as a tool to undo the bad habits that have become so ingrained and automatic during this defensive phase.

I am not speaking as an instructor but as someone who started skiing seriously as an adult many years back. Once you get comfortable on shallow terrain and appreciate the athletic stance, you tend to lose it when moving up to higher speeds and more challenging terrain. The "Holy Sh*t" factor starts to creep in again and your automatic instinct for survival puts you back into the defensive position that fights gravity. If you want students to appreciate the athletic stance, mellow terrain is therefore the place to do it. Everyone also has their own idea of what constitutes mellow and, as already stated, equipment is a major factor. If the student is in crap boots, it's pointless. 

Outside of those who truly have no fear. this pulling back applies to most any skier, IMO. I would wager that you would be hard-pressed to not find terrain or conditions that would not cause a skier to be sufficiently intimidated so as they always remain in this athletic stance. I don't care who it is, if they are sufficiently intimated they WILL lose the athletic stance, if but for brief periods. Everyone has a comfort limit of some kind. It may be trees, 'no-fall' zones, ledges, rocks, etc. Take the most radical and gnar skier and put blindfolds on him/her and ask him to do a back-flip into Corbett's and ski to the base and I GUARANTEE you this skier WILL pull back and will not always be skiing in an athletic balanced stance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skierhj 

Hall of Famer to be Patrick Roy.  Conn Smythe Trophy winning Patrick Roy.  Goalie god Patrick Roy

Also a bit of an a-hole Patrick Roy, but that goes with the territory...

Quote:

Originally Posted by lady_Salina 

So everyday I try to explain to the legions of students of all ages proper ski stance.  After showing and explaining that feet apart, flexed knees, arms, elbows and hands forward and apart, bend at the waist to keep balance on the feet and to stay in this flexible and balanced, PREPARED position they look at me like I asked them to pose in some obscene or alien pose and after attempting to copy it and then starting to slide down the hill.... immediately close their hands, hug themselves, run there skis into one anothers and sit back till they fall down when they hit pitch, I can't for the life of me understand how they don't feel and see the benefits of the balanced position.

 

After viewing this photo of my grandson at 1.5 years, as he hits the pitch of the slide in standing position and immediately assumes the flexed, balanced, prepared stance, I try so hard to teach each day I have to wonder.  Do we lose some natural ability and sense between learning to walk and growing up?

 

Dec 30, 2010

Hi LS:

My goodness, he's even dorsiflexing, hand and foot .   (The correct response, a la May West thank you, is:  Goodness had nothing to do with it, dearie).  Invest big time in this kid.  He'll be the MJ or TW of skiing.

WR:

Great pictures for emulation purposes.

Happy New Year to All,

Think snow,

CP

From personal experience, boot fit, alignment and binding ramp angle can make it impossible to achieve a neutral athletic stance. If you bend your knees and but your ankle is unable to bend you are immediately off balance and are probably burning your quads trying to stay 'athletic'. If took me many boot adjustments and the removal of a Look lifter plate until I was able to naturally achieve on skis what is simple in shoes.

Love the picture, perfect stance. I have some of my son as a toddler, just as he hits the big drop on the slide, scrunching forward, he got this huge smile on his face and laughed as he launched and the speed increased.

Mojo, I have to disagree about the equipment being a determining condition, as I have film of myself from 1957 in Alaska, where my hands were up and forward, shoulders facing the fall line. I was taught that I should pretend I have a basket of apples in my hands and I am holding the basket in front of me to offer a friend an apple from the basket. The gear was wood skis with metal edges, leather boots with the square toe to fit the snap down cable bindings with a bear trap toe piece. I think my instructor was ahead of his time, as the USA official method of the time was rotation.

When a Squaw coach saw me teaching my then 7 year old he suggested we spend a little more time on intermediate groomers so that the young guy could get the feeling of doing it right locked into his muscle memory and not ski basic incorrect survival instincts, thereby entrenching the wrong technique in the body.

The dilemma of skiing difficult terrain is that we often ski our worse when we NEED to ski our best, due to fear. fear is a distraction from the focus on technique.

I'd differ with one part of the athletic stance as it applies to skiing. Although bending forward at the waist may work for some of those sports, and in skiing it is the survival instinct position, it absolutely doesn't work and is among the hardest habits to break once entrenched in the fear - flight instinct. You can't ski with upper-lower body separation if you are too extremely bent at the waist, and the rib cage gets jammed up and static.

I think skiing is a very natural sport, even perhaps genetically stored in our trans generation memory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aschick 

From personal experience, boot fit, alignment and binding ramp angle can make it impossible to achieve a neutral athletic stance. If you bend your knees and but your ankle is unable to bend you are immediately off balance and are probably burning your quads trying to stay 'athletic'. If took me many boot adjustments and the removal of a Look lifter plate until I was able to naturally achieve on skis what is simple in shoes.

Exactly. As I was saying earlier, most people taking lessons at this level have feet that are swimming around in extra-wide, soft and comfy ski boots with cardboard footbeds that have been flattened by repeated use. The only way to balance yourself is by standing on your heels and doing whatever compensating rotary movements you can to make the skis come around. You are basically compensating for forces that occur in a turn and not setting them up, as you would in an athletic stance.  In that type of boot setup, a balanced athletic stance in a neutral or weight-forward position only produces any semblance of control in a straight line. It will then take a lot of lower leg strength, a refined balance, and serious quad burn to keep yourself under control while utilizing an athletic position. I skied in rental boots a couple seasons ago at an impromptu ski outing while visiting relatives in Ohio. Anyone over 170 pounds can probably pop the rivets on the side by flexing them. I honestly don't see how anyone can learn anything while in those boots.

To really get inside the mind of a novice. all instructors who teach novices should probably be required to ski in sloppy rental boots for a week as part of their certification. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by davluri 

 

 

 

The dilemma of skiing difficult terrain is that we often ski our worse when we NEED to ski our best, due to fear. fear is a distraction from the focus on technique.

 

I understand what you are saying but... as I said earlier, blindfold yourself and do a backflip into Corbett's and ski to the base and see if you can overcome fear enough to ski in a balanced, athletic, and preaped position. You won't. The only thing you will be preapred to do is stop. The only position you will have is back on your heels desperately trying to control your speed by skidding to a crawl so you dont hit the rock outcroppings you know are awaiting you. You will suddenly have all the trepidation of a beginner and your body language will match. Unless you are suicidial, fear WILL overcome you and you will fall back to instinct. 

Everyone has a limit and a point at which they say No Más . For some the limit is very high. For others, it's relaitvely low. But it still exists for everyone.

After a certain point, skiing is a head game. It's experience vs instinct. Which one prevails largely determines you stance.

^^^truth, I'd say. Though for many the survival position is not so much back with their feet as it is crouched at the waist. same negative outcome, same body language, same dilemma. you can't ski with fear. you ski better with joy.

video sure helps. when you ask people how much they flex their knees when skiing, they will all demonstrate more flex than they use in their normal stance. they think they are more flexed than they are, without exception. I show them their position and they laugh and say: "no way, I'm not standing straight up stiffly like that", but they certainly are. Sometimes asking them to exaggerate the position gets them into the correct stance.

 To throw out another term, the one that helps me, it's a matter of want. All those athletes in stance, including the cutie on the slide, want the ball/the puck/the slide, whatever. I know in tennis, when I'm confident and playing well, I want the ball, and I'm on my toes. When I'm feeling off, and I don't want the ball, I stand flat, on my heels. Not wanting is usually equal to some level of fear.

But you can fear and want, too; you just have to train yourself to attack even when you recognize fear.

Again, from my experience, too many instructors talk about knees and not ankles. If you cannot notice how your ankles are flexing you will not be able to balance dynamically or to adjust where you are pressuring the boot for different parts of the turn (just like you put pressure on different parts of your feet as you walk or run) or varying snow conditions. And unfortunately this can be very hard depending on the equipment set up. It is also impossible for the instructor to really show ankle flex as it is hidden by the boot.

I have noticed that it usually takes skiers a long time before they feel what their feet are doing in the boot. Asked about it, they realize that they have no idea what they are doing with their feet and toes, they assume they are locked into position like in a plaster caste.

Seg,  I have thought this to be true also. I found that it explains why showing off, especially to a member of the opposite sex or competitive friends, produces some pretty good skiing. (Instead of: gee, I don't know if I can do this. It's: watch this! I'm going to rip it up. )

Yes, people lose the ability. Just as most adults can't do a full squat ( I bet most on this forum can't). Most Americans idea of a squat is weighting the balls of their feet and lifting their heels, the exact opposite of what you should do. Yet, here is another youngin'  showing perfect form.

the ankle joint is alot more important than the knee joint.

the thing about the a balance athletic stance is its is not destination it is a never ending journey, just because some can be in 'balance stance" standing still really doesnt mean anything. a balance stance skiing has WAY less knee bend than any of the pictures posted above IMO. In fact I would go so far as asking for bent knees is one of the most common causes of aft skiing.

The never ending journey to a balance stance starts with our ankles, and continues with constant movement forward of basically all body part. BTw only one joint can move every part of your body forward at one time.....the ankle.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by aschick 

Again, from my experience, too many instructors talk about knees and not ankles. If you cannot notice how your ankles are flexing you will not be able to balance dynamically or to adjust where you are pressuring the boot for different parts of the turn (just like you put pressure on different parts of your feet as you walk or run) or varying snow conditions. And unfortunately this can be very hard depending on the equipment set up. It is also impossible for the instructor to really show ankle flex as it is hidden by the boot.

I posted before reading your post.

dont know your background, or who you are but your spot on about ankles. Great post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA 

 

 a balance stance skiing has WAY less knee bend than any of the pictures posted above IMO. 

 

BTw only one joint can move every part of your body forward at one time.....the ankle.
 

Dude, I spent less than 2 minutes looking for pictures of different major sports... sorry they aren't perfect. Sure, some of the photos show a lot more 'squat' than I'd like, but the idea is still correct. The point is, anyone who participated in sports has learned what a 'ready position' is for that sport- weight on the balls of the feet, legs shoulder width apart, hands out and to the front, eyes up looking forward. If you are playing defense in basketball and your weight is on your heels and you lean back... you aren't going to be very effective, are you? Most people can identify with this. Telling new skiers to flex their ankle seems to me that it would lead to them lifting their forefoot and weighting their heels... but I'm no ski instructor.

By the way, how can my ankle move my toes forward??? My toes are part of my body, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiteroom 

By the way, how can my ankle move my toes forward??? My toes are part of my body, right?

If you are riding a Segway?

To explain balance by isolating the function of the leg joints to that extreme, and saying one or the other is more important doesn't work for me; I can't understand it working that way. IMO, the ankle and the knee bend opposite directions and the flexing of one often requires a corresponding flex of the other. Therefore tied together, the angles correlate.  I feel more engaged with the knee in direction changes, and more focused on the ankle for weighting different zones of the ski.  When absorbing terrain, I feel like the shock absorption is initiated with the knees, balance corrections done with the ankles.

BWPa, I assume you're explaining your own theory on stance here, and not reciting the national doctrine.

I love the pictures, and that infant looks like a future Sumo wrestler with that stance.

Once I heard a football TV announcer explaining a running backs moves and he used the same words we do, like: staying square down the field and working his legs side to side.

It has universal application on balance. For some people, eyes ahead and down the fall line will cure some other mistakes.

I agree with BWPAs statements on the importance of the ankle flexion.  So much of effective, efficient skiing IMO is tied to ankle movements, both fore and aft and laterally.  This movement is often overlooked or masked by the Frankenstien nature of ski boots.  
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by davluri 

To explain balance by isolating the function of the leg joints to that extreme, and saying one or the other is more important doesn't work for me; I can't understand it working that way. IMO, the ankle and the knee bend opposite directions and the flexing of one often requires a corresponding flex of the other. Therefore tied together, the angles correlate.  I feel more engaged with the knee in direction changes, and more focused on the ankle for weighting different zones of the ski.  When absorbing terrain, I feel like the shock absorption is initiated with the knees, balance corrections done with the ankles.

 

BWPa, I assume you're explaining your own theory on stance here, and not reciting the national doctrine.

 

I love the pictures, and that infant looks like a future Sumo wrestler with that stance.

 

Once I heard a football TV announcer explaining a running backs moves and he used the same words we do, like: staying square down the field and working his legs side to side.

 

It has universal application on balance. For some people, eyes ahead and down the fall line will cure some other mistakes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by segbrown 

Quote:

Originally Posted by skierhj 

Hall of Famer to be Patrick Roy.  Conn Smythe Trophy winning Patrick Roy.  Goalie god Patrick Roy

Also a bit of an a-hole Patrick Roy, but that goes with the territory...

Well... he IS French, after all.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiteroom 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA 

 

 a balance stance skiing has WAY less knee bend than any of the pictures posted above IMO. 

 

BTw only one joint can move every part of your body forward at one time.....the ankle.
 

Dude, I spent less than 2 minutes looking for pictures of different major sports... sorry they aren't perfect. Sure, some of the photos show a lot more 'squat' than I'd like, but the idea is still correct. The point is, anyone who participated in sports has learned what a 'ready position' is for that sport- weight on the balls of the feet, legs shoulder width apart, hands out and to the front, eyes up looking forward. If you are playing defense in basketball and your weight is on your heels and you lean back... you aren't going to be very effective, are you? Most people can identify with this. Telling new skiers to flex their ankle seems to me that it would lead to them lifting their forefoot and weighting their heels... but I'm no ski instructor.

 

By the way, how can my ankle move my toes forward??? My toes are part of my body, right?

didnt even see who posted the pictures....sorry I quite often read the first post and skim down to post before going back and reread. On the toe not moving? almost every part.

I normally dont just say 'flex your ankle" due to what you say could happen, i normally do something to let people find their balance themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davluri 

To explain balance by isolating the function of the leg joints to that extreme, and saying one or the other is more important doesn't work for me; I can't understand it working that way. IMO, the ankle and the knee bend opposite directions and the flexing of one often requires a corresponding flex of the other. Therefore tied together, the angles correlate.  I feel more engaged with the knee in direction changes, and more focused on the ankle for weighting different zones of the ski.  When absorbing terrain, I feel like the shock absorption is initiated with the knees, balance corrections done with the ankles.

 

BWPa, I assume you're explaining your own theory on stance here, and not reciting the national doctrine.

 

I love the pictures, and that infant looks like a future Sumo wrestler with that stance.

 

Once I heard a football TV announcer explaining a running backs moves and he used the same words we do, like: staying square down the field and working his legs side to side.

 

It has universal application on balance. For some people, eyes ahead and down the fall line will cure some other mistakes.

it my own saying but the theory and the basics of it our shared by MANY(if not all) Ed team members.

when absorbing big bumps you are using your knees alot more but you are going alittle aft for short periods of time. Aft isnt a bad place to be as long you COM is on a path to be centered or slightly forward.

again balance is a never ending journey, and not a destination. what I mean by that is that all though we may ski an entire run "in balance" we are always recorrecting to stay there. It never stops.

This why a balance straight run no matter how static it looks, is an active dynamic move involving nearly all parts of body, but the biggest joint in term of movement is the ankle. Your comment about 'eyes ahead down the fallline" might work because it get people to move themselves down the fall line.