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salomon LAB vs Off the shelf race 2V skis

post #1 of 14
Thread Starter 

 

basically my race skis are 2009 Race 2v LAB skis with the 27m radius, the off the shelf ones are 19m radius in 181cm...

 

me and my buddy's were discussing this yesterday but what are the differences in the 2 skis?

 

i am not big technically minding for skis but very interested to know...

post #2 of 14

I'm not very familiar with Solomon, but I imagine yours are "race stock" and the others are "cheaters". Basically, yours are substantially stiffer, more stable, and faster (if properly used), but harder to turn, easier to crash on if you aren't skilled, and generally geared to a higher ability level.  The other ones are just first rate skis specialized for accomplished skiing on groomed snow, but are more NASTAR than serious racing. But since I think Solomon racing has become rebranded Atomic, there may be other differences or I may be completely wrong.

post #3 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjp5 View Post

... but harder to turn, easier to crash on if you aren't skilled.....



Why do you think so? Care to elaborate? (Compared to a cheater gs)

post #4 of 14

The bigger turn radius will make a much larger turn for a given edge angle and deflection of the ski. Although not 100% correct if you want to get really technical, you can basically think of the turn radius of the ski as this huge imaginary circle which the ski lies along the edge of and when you ski, you move along this circle, making pivots between turns so you can effectively make tighter turns. The 27m radius ski is probably much stiffer and heavier both longitudinally and laterally. It will be able to damp vibrations better (semi-related to mass & stiffness, but a really complicated topic), especially at high speeds and in icy conditions. Think of it like a car's suspension; a stiff suspension won't be comfortable in some conditions, while a soft suspension will be bad in others. The 27m ski will give more feedback to you (transmit vibrations, different from damping) and transmit your motions much more efficiently, but if you aren't good enough to handle the laser precision, a more filtered control will be better, because an error free run is better than badly screwing up, even if every turn is a little worse. If you don't pay attention on a serious race ski and aren't used to them, you can catch an edge, etc and fall or get thrown off even on green circles, but after a while they're no big deal to use.

 

 

(Much) More technically, if you analyze a standard second order hyperbolic linear partial differential wave equation, the 27m ski will have faster and less chaotic transient convergence, but almost delta function like perturbation reactance over the steady state closer to ideal lagrangian mechanical systems. For all practical purposes, optimization depends too heavily on both initial and boundary conditions to find a theoretically dominate strategy without introducing more fundamental design differences than here (to my knowledge).

post #5 of 14

Mjp5, here's some general thoughts of mine, not a direct answer to your post but to an aggregate of similar posts. :)

 

How is a 17m shop ski easier than a 11m SL because it's less agressive turning and at the same time easier than a 23m or 27m GS because it's more agressive turning? Looking back a some years a 35m ski could be considered a carving ski.

 

Lacking torsional stiffness it's whats makes a ski useless when carving on ice. The skier doesn't need to be a racer to find a ski loosing it's grip mid turn problematic.

 

Dampening of a ski is marketing. Either the ski is a little jumpier or it's a little smoother, but in all honesty, does it really make someone fall over in non race conditions?

 

 

IF there is anything that makes a race ski more difficult or dangerous or whatever, it would be that it opens up new possibilities of edging, which in turn might enable the skier to put himself into a out of control situation. But I've never ever found a race ski more difficult or problematic in any way compared to a shop ski performing the same kinds of turns. The race ski is just better and easier to use.

 

IMO. :)

post #6 of 14
Thread Starter 

 

to continue - i have 2 skis

 

Lab Salomon 2v race(27m radius)

 

and

 

K2 kung fujas(19m radius)

 

when i am up for a days skiing locally - i generally change skis throughout the day. 

 

yesterday i used the race skis most of the day - stared off icy then it was warm, probably about 7 degrees celcius in the afternoon and the snow got so soft in the sun and i was really struggling in the race skis on shorter more slalom like turns(sill fine for GS turns) - kept getting too much grip!!! changed to the kung fujas and was fine... 

 

the Lab skis are so much better than my previous off the shelf GS skis from overall speed to edge grip but being so stiff they at no fun to play with on the flat!!! i Still have not felt i have gone too fast in the skis yet to be out of control and i have been really trying to push them in an open piste. but again not actually had a race in them yet... 

 

 

why is there the minimum radius for GS in the FIS???

post #7 of 14

@ scottydonald

 

I personally have a decent racing background and generally stick to groomers, so I prefer race skis all the time and really only choose between SL, non-FIS legal GS, and FIS legal GS. So yeah, I definitely think race skis are great, but wouldn't recommend what I use to my friends that aren't very serious about skiing.

 

I could be wrong, but I believe there's a minimum radius for FIS to simply make things harder (not just riding the sidecut) and potentially for safety regarding stability issues, but I think this could be worked around with admittedly radical design changes.

post #8 of 14

@ carl r

 

I think you're at least partially right and I just did a bad job explaining things. In the right hands, a full bore race ski will be better than the cheater ski in almost all conditions. You're right in that radius doesn't make a ski intrinsically easier or harder to use, it just gives a certain size turn that it's best for. But, on a race course, a shorter radius is always easier (all else being equal). High torsional stiffness is always good in groomed skiing, but bad in park, pipe, jump, mogul type stuff and probably good for powder unless you're lazy. What can make high torsional stiffness bad is making it easy to accidentally catch an edge, especially with beginners that snowplow or do only skidded turns. The "carving" skis of 10 years ago are a joke by today's standards. Just look at old WC races and you'll see that those SL skis with 30+ meter radii couldn't make turns anything like today's latest and greatest. A FIS legal SL ski is easier to use than a comparable GS ski. That same SL ski is harder to use than a cheater GS ski because it is more physically demanding to ski aggressively on (any ski can be used with zero effort with concessions in line/carving) and will transmit your slightest move to the snow so if you stumble you'll get more thrown off. A cheater will get you further for the effort to a point, but beyond that point, the race stock ski will be better.

 

One point that I must disagree on though is damping. You are right in that most things marketed in the ski industry are gimmicks, but damping is still if not the single most important consideration in ski design beyond the obvious choices/restrictions associated with a given target use, it is certainly high on the list. Vibrations decrease your control of the ski-snow interaction, decrease edge hold, decrease the obtainable turn radius, and decrease speed in themselves. They won't directly make you fall over, but they will make you ski worse and falling comes with bad skiing. Unless this forum supports LaTeX, it's hard to really get into why my assertions are true. But for example, Fischer markets race skis with holes in the tips and cuts in the tails. They correctly say this reduces mass and thus moment of inertia, but this means shit for your skiing. It is however a good idea because if you look at the 4th order Euler-Bernoulli beam ODE, the 2nd order oscillation ODE, 2nd order wave PDE, the Cauchy stress tensor, constitutive mechanical properties, etc. it will improve things significantly. Race stock skis will damp vibrations worlds better for aggressive skiing.

post #9 of 14

Good discussion...I have a question.  What about changing the length of racing SL?  I ski a very competitive beer league on race slalom skis...165.  I raced a couple of runs on my 180 race GS (older with 21 M radius) and the times were high.  I'm usually in the top five.  I think the older GS boards are much less of a ski than the newer SL boards.  The course is a SL/GS with times in the low 20s so not a lot of time to get the speed to arc a GS ski.  Line is everything.  I have been considering dropping to a race stock 150 CM slalom ski just to see the effect going the other way.  Thoughts???  I'm in good shape but sporting 220 lbs on a six foot frame.  Am I nuts?  I just have a feeling that by tightening my line that much more I can get my times a fraction lower.  Top of hill is steep and icy, first four gates, bottom is relatively flat with hybrid turns.  The race is always won by who didn't blow it on the steeps.

post #10 of 14

It's hard to say how the manufacturers change stiffness from year to year since that information isn't available and you basically have to go on peoples' subjective assessment. On such a short course, a 165 SL would probably be your best bet unless you could pull a GS like the one you described through.  Unless you just ride the sidecut, the 150 SL will be slower because it can't damp vibrations well and you will suck on the steeps. I used a 150 SL for a while to get around boot and foot issues, but I reached a point to where I was faster in legit slalom courses with a 167 GS with a 18m radius because it was actually stable enough. And I weighed ~135lb at the time. A small (175 or less) race stock GS might be worth a try if the course is a black diamond though.

post #11 of 14

I had the pleasure of skiing an older version of the Lab GS race stock Wednesday.  I have way too many skis, but this is very likely to be my ski of choice for high speed cruising on hardpack for the foreseeable future.  There was quite a bit of icy patches, especially on the back of steep snow gun whales and pretty much all over the steeper runs.  The skis felt great under me.  Other than seeing the ice patches the only way I could tell my skis were on ice was by the sound.  They held as well as anything I've ever skied on "Eastern hardpack", and I've skied a lot of different race skis over the years..

 

post #12 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

I had the pleasure of skiing an older version of the Lab GS race stock Wednesday.  I have way too many skis, but this is very likely to be my ski of choice for high speed cruising on hardpack for the foreseeable future.  There was quite a bit of icy patches, especially on the back of steep snow gun whales and pretty much all over the steeper runs.  The skis felt great under me.  Other than seeing the ice patches the only way I could tell my skis were on ice was by the sound.  They held as well as anything I've ever skied on "Eastern hardpack", and I've skied a lot of different race skis over the years..

 

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post #13 of 14
Thread Starter 

talkign about the edge grip...

 

just got my new edger - spent some time doing my edges there - 87 degrees... would there be any difference on the edges between the fis and non fis ones???

post #14 of 14

They're probably the same. If anything the FIS ones might be slightly narrower, but most likely the same alloy. The bevels from the factory could be different though, with the FIS having a higher side bevel and lower base bevel.

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