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2010/2011 Hart Phoenix Versus Hart F17 Classic

post #1 of 12
Thread Starter 

Hi all,

 

I've been reading the EpicSki forums for a while now and finally decided to join up.  I need a new set of skis as my 12 yr old ones can't deal with the ice of the East anymore.  I was told by a local shop that the torsional regidity of the skis is gone and that's why sharpening them does very little in improving their ice performance.  My current skis are some old Salomon 168s with a 92-64-92 profile (1st gen parabolics I'm told).  I've never met a run I couldn't ski with them, but lately the hard-packed snow/ice has made skiing feel more like work than fun.  Even with these slim sticks I can still ski deep powder as long as its steep.  I live in the East and ski a lot of moguls when I can. 

 

This brings me to my question about the Hart Phoenix (116-66-101) and F17 Classics (104-64-92).  They're both tiny underfoot like my current skis, and both have slightly larger tips.  I've read that the F17s are one of the only true mogul skis that can be used effectively outside the fields.  Other than the slightly larger ends on the Phoenix, what are the other major differences between the two (ie. stiffness, edging, etc.).  Also, I'm thinking I might get some of the new/returning Look Pivot 14s as I've had trouble with pre-releases in the bumps, would these be a good match for either of the Harts?

 

As I live in Ontario Canada, we don't have any local dealers and I don't know of anywhere near where I could demo either of these, but if anyone knows of any Hart demo days in Quebec, Vermont, or NY I might consider a road trip to try-b4-I-buy.

 

Thanks in advance.

post #2 of 12

Dear Green Diamonds, we understand your current dilemma and would be glad to respond to your Epic Ski Post.

Our F17 Classic ski (103-66-89) is the most versatile of our 2 models of mogul skis. Sharing dimensional characteristics similar to a GS race ski this mogul basher is also great skiing all mountain. Inside its construction consists of Kevlar and a unique weave of fiberglass positioned at a 90 degree angle. It is fast, quick edge to edge, steady and grips ice like a Sherpa hauling a pack up Mt. Everest.

Closely related to this ski and sharing the laminated ash and beach core, UHMW sidewalls and graphite bases, are our other two F Series Skis - the Phoenix and Pulse. The Phoenix is a more deeply contoured all mountain front side carving ski with a 116-66-101 r 18 at 180 dimensional orientation that when put on edge will help glide you through your turns smooth as silk. Its construction includes a layer of titenal for tortional rigidity similar to what you would find in a race ski. The ski is fast, easy on your legs and carves like a sushi chef on 6 cans of Red Bull on a Saturday night.

If you are looking for something a bit wider and more an all mountain cruiser that handles all types of snow conditions well and is especially noted for its stability on ice, it is our Pulse (124-77-110). This ski is constructed of a unique blend of fiberglass with a layer of rubber dampening. Smooth and steady, this ski is the 747 of the Hart fleet taking you in high luxury, all distances and in all types of weather anywhere you would like to go.

So, it is just your preference with these fast, sure footed ponies. The closest Hart dealer to you is the City Garage in Ellincott, NY (716-699-2054). They would be glad to help you further evaluated these high quality, high performance skis. Or, just contact us directly at 206-818-3666.

post #3 of 12
Thread Starter 

thanks for the info and the extra colour-commentary.

 

I think I've decided on the F17 Classics and now I have 2 other questions:

 

1) how are hart skis measured? I am deciding between the 167 and 175, but want to know which method hart uses to measure.  I have measured my current skis which I love and they are 168 measured from the floor to the tip with the ski standing vertical.

 

2) I am wanting to put Look Pivots/Rossi FKSs on them, but looking at the store they appeared quite wide, do you know if these bindings will work on the F17 and if not, do you have any other suggestions for a solid binding to match with these sticks?

 

thanks again.

post #4 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenDiamonds View Post

thanks for the info and the extra colour-commentary.

 

I think I've decided on the F17 Classics and now I have 2 other questions:

 

1) how are hart skis measured? I am deciding between the 167 and 175, but want to know which method hart uses to measure.  I have measured my current skis which I love and they are 168 measured from the floor to the tip with the ski standing vertical.

 

2) I am wanting to put Look Pivots/Rossi FKSs on them, but looking at the store they appeared quite wide, do you know if these bindings will work on the F17 and if not, do you have any other suggestions for a solid binding to match with these sticks?

 

thanks again.



Julie nailed the characteristics of each model. I would say the Pheonix is a little more versatile than the F17 and the Pulse, IMHO, as the class of the line and at 77 underfoot with a mid turn radius a killer ski. While both others will be slightly better in the bumps the Pulse will be much better on the rest of the mountain. 

 

As far as the brake situation on the Look turntables. I think I can help with that, while the narrowest brake for the 14 is a 95mm, I can swap the base for a 80mm brake that will work for any of the 3 skis mentioned. 

post #5 of 12
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the quick reply, but my main concern wasn't with the brakes, but with the actual width of the turntable.  I checked on my current skis and I don't know if the 80 mm width of the heal would go on them so that's why I'm wondering if it would work on the F17.  I don't actually have the Pivots yet, but measuring them in the store it gave me some concern that they may not fit.  I've read on here of other people with the F17 and Pivot bindings, but just wanted to confirm that the new 2010/2011 Pivot14 would be a good choice for this ski.

 

Although I don't ski the bumps 24/7, its more the dimensions of the ski I really like.  I haven't skied on any larger skis, but I also have never had any trouble in powder or on anything in-bounds.  Other than the larger tip and tail on the Phoenix, is there anything else which differentiates it from the F17? I know that the Phoenix is also quite capable in the bumps, but from what i've heard it still falls short to the F17...is this just bc of the tip/tail size or is the construction different?

 

Also, any more info on how hart measures the length? I know there are at least 3 ways to measure it so I wanted to see how its length would compare to my current ski.

 

Thanks!

post #6 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenDiamonds View Post

Thanks for the quick reply, but my main concern wasn't with the brakes, but with the actual width of the turntable.  I checked on my current skis and I don't know if the 80 mm width of the heal would go on them so that's why I'm wondering if it would work on the F17.  I don't actually have the Pivots yet, but measuring them in the store it gave me some concern that they may not fit.  I've read on here of other people with the F17 and Pivot bindings, but just wanted to confirm that the new 2010/2011 Pivot14 would be a good choice for this ski.

 

Although I don't ski the bumps 24/7, its more the dimensions of the ski I really like.  I haven't skied on any larger skis, but I also have never had any trouble in powder or on anything in-bounds.  Other than the larger tip and tail on the Phoenix, is there anything else which differentiates it from the F17? I know that the Phoenix is also quite capable in the bumps, but from what i've heard it still falls short to the F17...is this just bc of the tip/tail size or is the construction different?

 

Also, any more info on how hart measures the length? I know there are at least 3 ways to measure it so I wanted to see how its length would compare to my current ski.

 

Thanks!


The pivot will fit. THAT is not an issue.

 

There is a difference in construction, the F17 has less metal making it less prone to bending in the bumps. You need to demo the skis before worrying about differences in how the skis are measured compared to the 15 year old Salomons you are currently skiing, the shape has more to do with how it will ski than the length. 

post #7 of 12
Thread Starter 

UPDATE:

 

I grabbed a pair of the F17 Classics in the 167 length as it was the longest my shop had.  To answer the length issue for anyone in the future, they are 167 in total length (tip to tail along the curve of the base). That translates to about 165 from tip to tail direct. 

 

I skied them for 3 days in Quebec.  Some small icy bumps, but mostly groomed hardpack.  They felt great under foot...so familar as they skied almost the same as my old sticks.  The weirdest thing was that they were mounted at the midpoint.  My old ones were 55/45 front/back and its amazing the percieved difference when running 50/50.  Also, even though the skis looked about 3 inches shorter in the front, their tip contact point was only about 1/2 to 1 inch shorter because of the old style pointy tips rising so early.  As a result, they visually seem a lot shorter, but actually ski almost the same length. As for the Pivot fitting the skis, they look and function great, but the wide brakes do hang over a bit much.  I have since put them on a wider ski and am looking for some older FKSs with the 70 mm brakes to put on the F17s. 

 

All in all I was very happy with the purchase although I wish I had gone with the 175 length.  Now it looks like I can.  After returning from the trip I layed them out on the floor to show my family and my dad says, "why are the tails different heights off the ground?"  I told him it was just the breaks, but then I looked closer and found the tip on one was bent about 12-16 inches from the tip.  Without any memorable falls I don't know when it happened, but I called my dealer and they're working on a warranty replacement.  With all that being said, even though I've been without them most of the season, it looks like they are going to send me some 175 this time so in the end it will work out ok.

post #8 of 12

Interesting you mention that about the tail/tip of one being bent differently than the other.  My Javelin GS's have the same problem.  Laid side by side, the tip of one is about 1/2 cm higher than the other.  Sounds like Hart/Blossom/Vist has some quality control to work on?

post #9 of 12
Thread Starter 

One of the main reasons I went with them (despite the higher $$$) was for the highly touted bomberness of them.  According to someone on here, hart expereinced zer0 bent tips during testing.  The shop I bought them at was somewhat trying to tell me to go with the Pulse instead as they had a better length for me...but I was sure glad I didn't because when I called them about the bent tips, he told me that those very skis he sold the next day and the guy broke one of them in half in the moguls.  I saw the ski a few weeks back and its almost comical to see it (i say almost because i would have hated to be the one on them when it happened). 

 

I don't know much about that incident, but I know with mine it happened without me even knowing it.  Since that ski is so great and highly promoted, I wonder if they ran out of stock and then made more up too quickly or something.  My intent is not to blame or bash hart as they are being reasonable about it and I do trully love these skis.  When I get the new ones I will give them a good testing and then write up a full review. 

post #10 of 12

Well they are built in a supposedly high-end factory in Italy. I think the F-17's are too. Mine came from the factory this way, but I didn't notice it until they were already mounted. If I was smart I would have had Hart warranty them before even using them, but I was lazy and didn't persue it. Truth is, the bend in mine technically makes the contact surface on one ski about 1cm longer than the other. I've still won beer league races on them bent and all. I'm wondering if they are getting damaged during shipping due to weak cardboard boxes? I would like to have the matching Slalom ski to my Javelin GS next year, but I'm afraid to spend money on them and get another bent set. I bought them in May last year...they could still be warrantied.

post #11 of 12
Thread Starter 

Its possible that mine were bent like that...I didn't think to look because I'd never heard of bent tips before this.  The hart website is fairly detailed and limited about their warranty, but if you have a local dealer that could back you up then that may help.  Did you get them in-store of direct from hart?  I have found dealing with a person a lot easier than dealing with an email address and a faceless policy.  Good luck.

post #12 of 12

I got mine from Hart direct.  There's only one ski shop in town and they don't sell Hart.

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