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So skiing into and out of counter Sucks?

post #1 of 51
Thread Starter 

 

Taken from the Achy, Braky, Glidey, Wedge thread....

 

 

So Rick,  how does this square stance work for you in dynamic turns or Slalom or GS racing courses?  What could be some of the problems that would surface as the speed and forces increase?  Can you please post some video or photo montages of WC racers demonstrating what you are describing?

 

I ski in and out of counter all the time, as many skiers I know and respect do, and we have no problem skiing arc to arc carved turns without any pivoting!  So how is it that counter must produce pivoting again?

post #2 of 51

Bud, Knowing Rick's bakground I doubt that Rick ever said that counter must produce pivoting. What he said was that anticipation produces pivoting. I suppose theoretically you could have anticipation without pivoting if you use your core to keep the counter in transition, but why would you? One example of technique where you ski into and out of counter with no pivoting is the system that should not be mentioned, but in that system the counter is neutral in transition.

 

Square is obviously not used in SL or GS; but as the speed increases less counter is used.

post #3 of 51

OK, that's better, Bud, a separate thread for this.

 

Before I begin, lets clear up a couple misconceptions your thread title and opening remarks might cause.  I never said skiing into and out of counter universally "SUCKS".   You've read my contributions here long enough to know I'm a champion for skills and technique versatility.  Every variation of balance, edging, flexion/extension, angulation, rotary and transitions has situational value at some point during all mountain skiing.  The strongest skiers are versatility Masters, able to purposely or spontaneously employ any technical strategy needed or desired, at any moment they choose.  Across the board right or wrong, super or sucks, seldom applies in the world of ski technique.  It's more about options, and how and when to apply each of them.  That is the theme of the thoughts I will present here.

 

Second misconception missile: You ask about a square stance for Slalom or GS racing, and how it works for me.  My comments in the thread you extracted this from were in regard to the cleanly initiated, low speed, steered turns being performed by a lower level skier.  For that pool of skiers, habitual pivoted turn initiations are a pervasively common problem.  My comments had absolutely nothing to do with what is required during high energy, high edge angle carved turns.  For those type of turns, a variety other rotary strategies are required.  Again, it's all about skill versatility, and the where, whens, whys and hows of selection and application of various technique options.  If you're looking for opinions about the universal black and white virtues of one form of technique over another, Bud, you'll have to look elsewhere, because I see the world of skiing in color.

 

With that preliminary air clearing stuff done, we can now get on to discussing the many intricacies of this topic from a legitimate starting point.   But, unfortunately, it won't happen tonight.  It's late, and I need my beauty sleep (desperately).  I'll get back to this as soon as I can, with a thoughtful post that covers the topic broadly.  Night all.    

 

 

post #4 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Bud, Knowing Rick's bakground I doubt that Rick ever said that counter must produce pivoting. What he said was that anticipation produces pivoting. I suppose theoretically you could have anticipation without pivoting if you use your core to keep the counter in transition, but why would you? One example of technique where you ski into and out of counter with no pivoting is the system that should not be mentioned, but in that system the counter is neutral in transition.

 

Square is obviously not used in SL or GS; but as the speed increases less counter is used.


Thanks, Jamt.  That was spot on, as is typical for you.  

post #5 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

 My comments in the thread you extracted this from were in regard to the cleanly initiated, low speed, steered turns being performed by a lower level skier.  For that pool of skiers, habitual pivoted turn initiations are a pervasively common problem.

 

 


I wonder why that is? Could it have anything to do with teaching a skier with limited ability to steer their feet a turn that does not include a release of the inside ski? When they run out of leg power they are going to find the force needed to turn their skis somewhere else.

post #6 of 51
Thread Starter 

Watching Rick's excellent video of a steered turn with coordinated rotation (ie: square stance)  I could only think the skill required to make this type of turn without upper body or advanced rotation is very refined and one that likely most level III instructors would have difficulty performing with the skill Rick demonstrated.  This beckons then the question, how in the world would you expect a beginner to perform such a task.  You are inviting upper body rotation big time!  I believe the merits of teaching lower leg steering skills far out weigh the potential and almost certain side effects of choosing your square stance tact would create.

 

I am not and never have been a fan of teaching carving to beginners!!  A direct to parallel, yes, but I encourage simultaneous leg steering with skidded arcs for speed control and better line control.  Then we refine the rotary skills and edging skills to make progressively grippier turns until we reach the ability to carve turns.  As we advance to the expert level we want to have command of the whole rainbow spectrum of skill blend from pivot slips all the way through to carving (see graph in "ATM Teaching Concepts III") 


Edited by bud heishman - 12/22/10 at 10:58pm
post #7 of 51

Counter shoud be coupled to anticipation. For expert skiing it should say "skiing in and out of counter and anticipation". Counter will transform into anticipation once you are in the transition and you are starting a new turn. From there you unwind into square at apex into a countered position in the belly of the turn. This kind of movement pattern serves for much smoother turns and flow but the funky 50% upside down position in the high C where your upper body is facing down hill while your lower body and skis are committed to the new turn showing their bases uphill requires good skills and timing.

 

So for a beginner or lower end skier its offcourse much easier to square up at transigion. Just remember that a square stance is allways lends itself to hip and upper body rotation.

post #8 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

A direct to parallel, yes, but I encourage simultaneous leg steering with skidded arcs for speed control and better line control.  Then we refine the rotary skills and edging skills to make progressively grippier turns until we reach the ability to carve turns.  As we advance to the expert level we want to have command of the whole rainbow spectrum of skill blend from pivot slips all the way through to carving (see graph in "ATM Teaching Concepts III") 


Bud, checked the spectrum of skills needed for LIII. There are no requirements for basic parallel turns. Only short radius performance turns. It jumps from wedge christie to carved turns. Why?

post #9 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Counter shoud be coupled to anticipation. For expert skiing it should say "skiing in and out of counter and anticipation". Counter will transform into anticipation once you are in the transition and you are starting a new turn. From there you unwind into square at apex into a countered position in the belly of the turn. This kind of movement pattern serves for much smoother turns and flow but the funky 50% upside down position in the high C where your upper body is facing down hill while your lower body and skis are committed to the new turn showing their bases uphill requires good skills and timing.

 

So for a beginner or lower end skier its offcourse much easier to square up at transigion. Just remember that a square stance is allways lends itself to hip and upper body rotation.


 

This is one of the more accurate posts you have made lately!  icon14.gif  I would say the unwinding to square at apex could offer a little latitude for occurring earlier.  Skiing into counter does offer the advantage of stretched muscles which when released will facilitate the tips turning down hill provided we tighten the core and/or use a blocking pole plant.  I don't believe however, that skiing into counter must induce any kind of pivot, provided the skier is skilled enough to tip quickly and move accurately enough to negate any pivoting.  In fact my "Tip n Twist"  concept speaks directly to this area.  Twist left and tip right to turn right, will elicit a carved turn entry and biomechanically coincides with the movements of the foot and ankle.

post #10 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Bud, Knowing Rick's bakground I doubt that Rick ever said that counter must produce pivoting. What he said was that anticipation produces pivoting. I suppose theoretically you could have anticipation without pivoting if you use your core to keep the counter in transition, but why would you? One example of technique where you ski into and out of counter with no pivoting is the system that should not be mentioned, but in that system the counter is neutral in transition.

 

Square is obviously not used in SL or GS; but as the speed increases less counter is used.


Thanks, Jamt.  That was spot on, as is typical for you.  


Anticipation does NOT produce pivoting!! Anticipation release may produce pivoting if desired or mismaged.  It may be controlled to induce tipping.  A skilled skier can choose whichever option is appropriate for any given situation.

 

"as speed increases less counter is used" ?

 

I would argue that speed is not the deciding factor but turning radius is.  In general the larger the radius the less counter necessary and the tighter the radius the more counter is appropriate.

post #11 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

OK, that's better, Bud, a separate thread for this.

 

Before I begin, lets clear up a couple misconceptions your thread title and opening remarks might cause.  I never said skiing into and out of counter universally "SUCKS".   You've read my contributions here long enough to know I'm a champion for skills and technique versatility.  Every variation of balance, edging, flexion/extension, angulation, rotary and transitions has situational value at some point during all mountain skiing.  The strongest skiers are versatility Masters, able to purposely or spontaneously employ any technical strategy needed or desired, at any moment they choose.  Across the board right or wrong, super or sucks, seldom applies in the world of ski technique.  It's more about options, and how and when to apply each of them.  That is the theme of the thoughts I will present here.

 

Second misconception missile: You ask about a square stance for Slalom or GS racing, and how it works for me.  My comments in the thread you extracted this from were in regard to the cleanly initiated, low speed, steered turns being performed by a lower level skier.  For that pool of skiers, habitual pivoted turn initiations are a pervasively common problem.  My comments had absolutely nothing to do with what is required during high energy, high edge angle carved turns.  For those type of turns, a variety other rotary strategies are required.  Again, it's all about skill versatility, and the where, whens, whys and hows of selection and application of various technique options.  If you're looking for opinions about the universal black and white virtues of one form of technique over another, Bud, you'll have to look elsewhere, because I see the world of skiing in color.

 

With that preliminary air clearing stuff done, we can now get on to discussing the many intricacies of this topic from a legitimate starting point.   But, unfortunately, it won't happen tonight.  It's late, and I need my beauty sleep (desperately).  I'll get back to this as soon as I can, with a thoughtful post that covers the topic broadly.  Night all.    

 

 


Ok.   I believe the question here is WHY do beginners tend to over pivot turn entries?  I would argue it is to get to the slowing phase of the turn as soon as possible.  Now, is this intent conditioned by a countered position arrived at during the finishing phase of the previous turn??  I doubt it, rather it is a psychological condition of rushing to the finish phase to control speed.  Will teaching them to end their turns in a square body position negate this from happening?  I seriously doubt it.

 

The problem I see with trying to teach early edge engagement is the skier feels lots of acceleration with little control of line, which scares the hell out of them.  So they revert to upper body rotation (the most powerful and sustainable turning power) to flatten their skis and get them across the fall line.

 

As I said Rick's demo is actually a much higher level task than attainable by his target group!

post #12 of 51

Hi Bud, sorry for my tardy return.  Between the holidays, and work, not a lot of time for forums.  Anyway, here's my response to your comments.  I'm going to write with the objective of not only responding to you, but also speaking to the student level readers of this thread, so please, Bud, don't feel I'm talking down to you.  I know you will be well aware of much of what I'm going to say here.

 

I very much agree with your assessment of why beginners pivot.  It's usually a fear of the acceleration that happens through the top of the turn, as the pitch of the slope steepens while going from initiation to falline.  By pivoting, that acceleration period can be greatly avoided, and the pivoting skier can be quickly out of the falline again.  It's the epitome defensive skiing.  

 

This defensive pivoting I'm describing is generally done via upper body rotation.  (For those not sure about what upper body rotation to produce pivoting is, the following link provides a detailed explanation, and video clip example)  http://www.yourskicoach.com/SkiGlossary/Rotation.html

 

Skiing in and out of counter results in something called anticipation, where at the end of a turn the upper body faces down the slope, while the skis/feet/legs face across the slope.  That Anticipation creates a twist in our body, that, like a loaded torsional spring upon release, wants to snap us back into directional alignment once we release our edges at the end of the turn, with Body and skis once again facing the same direction.    Here's a link the explains how anticipation works to power a pivot, with a video demo of it.  http://www.yourskicoach.com/SkiGlossary/Anticipation.html

 

As you can see, both "Rotation" and "Anticipation" can be used to power a pivot.  The difference is that Rotation is a very crude, energy and movement intensive way to do it, and Anticipation is a very energy and movement efficient way to do it.  Watch the video clips in the links above again. to see the contrast of efficiency in each method.  You'll notice the extra strength and body movement required to execute the upper body rotation version, and the comparative effortlessness of the anticipation version.  

 

So Bud, when you say this:  Quote:

The problem I see with trying to teach early edge engagement is the skier feels lots of acceleration with little control of line

I understand your fondness of teaching skiing into and out of counter.  It allows your skiers to rid themselves of upper body rotation, while still avoiding that scary top of the turn acceleration that comes with early edge engagement.  They still pivot, avoiding the speed increase of early edge engagement, but they do it much more skillfully and efficiently.  For those who'd like to see a world class example of using Anticipation to power a pivot, here's a montage I produced from this years World Cup at Beaver Creek.  

 

Simoncelli,Montage,Web.jpg

 

 

The anticipation and pivot is pretty easy to see there, isn't it?  Can a non pivoted turn initiation happen when anticipation is present?  Yes, but it's a pretty high level task.  You have to fight the upper body's and Leg's desire to spring back into directional harmony upon edge release.   This is why when top level skiers desire to initiate a non pivoted turn, be it steered, or arc to arc carved, they will generally remove some of the counter that was being used in the previous turn as they approach the transition into the new turn.  That unloads the anticipation spring a bit, making a non pivoted initiation of the new turn a much easier task.  

 

Here's an example of the current best GS skier in the world eliminating much of the the counter of the previous turn as he approaches edge release.  Notice how much counter he eliminates from image 1 to image 2.  He's not even to edge angle neutral yet, and the counter is almost gone.  In pure forms of skiing into and out of counter, the amount of counter would actually increase from image 1 to 2.  Then see how early in the new turn, in image 3 of the montage, Ted's already fully returned to square, well before where you would see it happen in pure skiing into and out of counter, in which it would happen at the falline.   The result is that Ted produces a much less pivoted turn initiation than the strongly anticipated execution of Simoncelli above.

 

 

Ligety,Montage,Web.jpg

 

 

So, Bud,  now that I've explained a little bit to the readers about what anticipation is, let me get back to your question:  how can square, and the early edge engagement it results in, work for the lower skill level skier?  Actually, it works great.  Rather than teaching them a better way to pivot and avoid the acceleration phase of the turn, I teach them how to totally eliminate the pivot, and come to embrace and enjoy that acceleration phase.  I do it by showing them other means to control their speed outside of pivoting.  Turn shape and skid angle become their safety line.  

 

With those tools, turn shape and skid angle, they have the means to manage their speed however they desire, or put on the brakes at any moment they choose, regardless of the terrain they're on.  Just having the knowledge that they have those tools close at hand allows them to relax, and begin to look at the top of the turn acceleration as something to have fun and play with, rather than dread and desperately try to escape.  It's empowering for them.  It's fun to watch the top of their turns gain shape, and their general skiing speed spike up, simply because they know they have the skills to put on the brakes when ever they desire or need to.  

 

I know, it seems counter intuitive that teaching someone how to manage their speed would result in them skiing faster, but that's exactly what happens.  It's just a confidence thing.  It frees them from their fears, so they stop holding back.  They stop skiing defensively.  

 

Of course, there's a teaching progression that gently guides people to the point of enjoying the acceleration experienced when engaging early, but if it's followed, progress and comfort comes very rapidly.  In most cases I can, in a couple hours, have people completely free of the default pivoting they've had plaguing their skiing, even those who have been pivoting for years.   Yes, my example of leg steering on my website is an advanced version of non pivoted leg steering skills (small skid angle and short radius), but there is an easy to follow progression that leads a skier to that level of execution, and it's not as hard to achieve as one might think.  Plus, by developing just a rudimentary set of turn shape and skid angle skills, students can quickly find comfort and enjoyment with early engagement and top of the turn acceleration, even on steeper terrain.  They can leave default pivoting behind them, forever more, and come to discover the joy of letting their skis flow unharnessed into the top of a turn.  

 

Happy Holiday everyone!  May the snow be deep, and your turns be non pivoted.  


Edited by Rick - 4/24/11 at 12:15am
post #13 of 51
Thread Starter 

Great explanation Rick! and the only difference I see in our thinking is terminology.  

 

While you discuss "skid" angle I using "steering" angle.  I acknowledge steering or guiding the skis is created by a blend of rotary movements and edging movements along the spectrum from pure pivoting (linked pivot slips) through the skill blend spectrum to the opposite end to pure carving (rail road tracks).  While some would like to say there is no pivoting in their brushed carves or their skid angles, I will always argue the opposite.  Yes the skis design aids this action but there is either active or passive rotary movements present.

 

In both cases we are refining the rotary movements or subduing the rush to pivot, to begin shaping the top of the turns and embracing the "downhill" part of downhill skiing and using a very shaped turn finish to control our descent.

 

A skilled skier can use the anticipation release to it's maximum benefit or completely negate the release twist.  For example a skier making dynamic short radius turns on the steep may maximize the release energy with a strong blocking pole plant (palms open, elbows in, pole tip slanted forward) at the moment of edge release to bring the bottom of the popsicle stick (feet) in line with the stable top of the stick (torso).  Contrast this with a skier making a gliding long radius turn where there is much less counter during completion phase, no pole plant is used or if it is, a gliding pole plant which occurs later in the transition and merely aids the edge change balance.  Consequently the torso (top of the popsicle stick) is free to realign with the feet (bottom of stick) through the edge change and therefore transmitting zero rotary impulse to the feet.   So you can see anticipation and anticipation release can cover a whole spectrum of rotary impulse imparted, from maximum to non existent, depending on the skiers intent.

 

Skiing into and out of counter is biomechanically sound and does not need to induce or be synonymous with pivoting.  Skiing in a square stance invites tails skidding and inhibits the ability to create angulation.

 

I would also note the first image you show above titled "anticipation" is not the best example.  It is more closely counter rotation as he is projecting the hips laterally by aggressively blocking with his core to pivot his skis.  I am sure you could post better examples of classic anticipation release than this example. 

 

post #14 of 51


 

Quote:

Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 

Skiing in a square stance invites tails skidding and inhibits the ability to create angulation.

 


Rick is talking about returned to square during neutral. I think you are talking about something that is different from the two examples shown by Rick.

 

Mastering one skill is hard enough for a recreation skier, why do I want to master many skills that achieve same thing and sometimes confuse myself?

post #15 of 51

Rick,

 

 On your website page http://www.yourskicoach.com/SkiGlossary/Counter.html      

in describing Counter you say  "This is a rotational state in which the pelvis and torso face towards the outside of the turn.  During a right turn, the pelvis and torso would be facing left of the direction the skis are pointing.   It's a body position that enhances the use of angulation.  It also helps pronate the outside foot, which directs pressure to the turning edge of the outside ski."

 

It is unclear to me how the position of counter (pelvis facing outside the turn) helps pronate the outside foot. If that is what you intended to say can you explain how it would do that?

post #16 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellside View Post


 

Quote:

Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 

Skiing in a square stance invites tails skidding and inhibits the ability to create angulation.

 


Rick is talking about returned to square during neutral. I think you are talking about something that is different from the two examples shown by Rick.

 

Mastering one skill is hard enough for a recreation skier, why do I want to master many skills that achieve same thing and sometimes confuse myself?



I was referring to Rick's video demonstration where he skied in a square stance the whole way around the turns.

post #17 of 51

Ligety should be square at the point his skis are neutral on the snow, between photos 2 & 3 above, and of course even a series of stills doesn't show the complete story of the situation the skier was in and what he had to do in that situation.  "Skiing into counter" is only a virtue to the extent that one uses leg rotation and steers their skis.  Counter takes up the rotation in the hip joints and prevents further leg rotation, a benefit to help the ski tails grip the snow in the last part of the turn and help avoid the tails washing out.  Countering early in the turn by twisting the hips toward the outside of the turn, like Ligety is showing in shots 4,5,6, helps grip and prevents steering.  Simoncelli was 13 places behind Ligety in the Beaver Creek GS.  That sideways slide of his skis to get lined up for the gate eats speed.

 

The current fad among a few people of a square stance will fade away in a few years.  It'll be another of the things we don't mention that was dropped, but doesn't get taught any more.

post #18 of 51


Rick,

I posted this the other day and guess that you did not see it with all the other posts going on. I am still interested in your thoughts so I am bringing it up again.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayCantu View Post

Rick,

 

 On your website page http://www.yourskicoach.com/SkiGlossary/Counter.html      

in describing Counter you say  "This is a rotational state in which the pelvis and torso face towards the outside of the turn.  During a right turn, the pelvis and torso would be facing left of the direction the skis are pointing.   It's a body position that enhances the use of angulation.  It also helps pronate the outside foot, which directs pressure to the turning edge of the outside ski."

 

It is unclear to me how the position of counter (pelvis facing outside the turn) helps pronate the outside foot. If that is what you intended to say can you explain how it would do that?

post #19 of 51

 

Hi, Ray.  It's simply a result of the gait mechanic principle.  Here are a couple of cuts and pastes that tell a bit about it.  

 

 

 

Quote:

The difference in time spent in the stance phase of running to walking is 60% of the complete gait cycle is spent in stance phase while walking and only 40% of the time is spent in stance phase during running. The time period during which the forces are applied is also dramatically different between running and walking. A walker moving at a comfortable speed of 120 steps per minute has a total cycle time of 1 second. A runner moving at 12 miles per hour has a cycle time of 0.6 second. However, the stance phase has decreased from .62 second to 0.2 seconds.

normalgait.gif

Stance Phase: Contact Subphase

The stance phase can further be subdivided into its three component phases. The first portion of the stance phase is contact. This phase begins with with the contact of the heel to the ground. This phase is completed when the remainder of the foot touches the ground. During this portion of the stance phase the foot is pronating at the subtalar joint. The leg is internally rotating and the foot is absorbing shock and functioning as a mobile adaptor to the ground surface. The next portion of the stance phase is called midstance.

 

 

 

Quote:

Pronation

Pronation is the opposite of supination and involves the calcaneus everting, abducting and dorsiflexion. This may occur for a variety of reasons. The fact that the calcaneus dorsiflexes during this motion makes this motion a compensatory motion for an equinous. (Which is a tight achilles tendon, or gastroc-soleus complex). An equinous has been defined in a variety of ways. It is best defined as existing when the foot can not dorsiflex on the leg more than 10 degrees.

The reason why problems in the foot can affect the rest of the extremity is explained by the principle of the closed kinetic chain.

The closed kinetic chain begins with the foot and encompasses the entire lower extremity. It requires the foot to be in contact with the ground. When the foot is on the ground, any motion occurring in one portion of the limb affects all other parts.

A rotation inward of the tibia will cause the foot to pronate about the subtalar joint. Likewise a pronatory motion of the foot will cause the tibia, femur and the entire leg to follow it and rotate inward. With supination the tibia and limb will rotate externally.


Edited by Rick - 12/28/10 at 6:48pm
post #20 of 51
Wow - cool find Rick! For anyone interested here's the rest of the article that Rick dug up. It certainly gets into the nitty-gritty (which some of us really like!).


Raycantu,

How does this idea relate to some of the comments in those "Study of Skiing" videos you recently referenced in another thread? I think I did notice a few interesting words in one of those videos about "Re-Supination" being the desirable attribute for the stance-foot during the meat of a turn.

As far as biomechanical structural support goes (interestingly) the stronger position against lateral movement seems to be on a Supinated outside-foot rather than on a Pronated foot. An easy test of this can be done with an assistant.

Have a partner 'lean' toward you sideways while standing primarily on a heavily Pronated (distant) foot. Give them a few forceful pushes and see how tough they are to 'move'. Now have them roll that distant foot onto its LTE and try again. I think you'll find they are much more stable and more easily resist your efforts to 'push' them when on the LTE. I recall reading something about this in Martial Arts books many moons ago suggesting it was the ideal stance for powerful moves.

Unfortunately, this may not work well in skiing since rolling the outside-foot into Supination also tends to release the inside-edge of that outside-ski.

Still, it's an interesting idea (one I started experimenting with right after listening to those videos). In my own case I find it's a much more stronger stance when making high-G turns - though I find my lateral edge-control becomes very dependent on inside-cuff contact with my lower-leg (not that I mind this attribute change - it's just different).

.ma
post #21 of 51
Thread Starter 

Rick,

 

Though the gait cycle has some parallels to skiing which would be an interesting thread on it's own, the article and your argument regarding counter and pronation are not supported by this excerpt above.

 

How does a countered position help to cause pronation exactly?  Do we counter when we walk?  I can see how angulation and pronation coexist but I don't see the relationship between counter and pronation?

 

 

The gait cycle does mirror skiing movements in that when the inside ski is unweighted it tends to supinate and as in the gait cycle when it contacts the ground it tends to strike first the heel then the fifth ray, then first metatarsal moving into pronation.  This is a similar movement to skiing as one ski is weighted and the other is unweighted and moves forward in lead change.

 

Please expound!

post #22 of 51
Hey Bud, not sure if my legs are just weird or what but...

When I stand in a normal-width stance with no tip-lead on my skis, my feet are pretty much 'flat' (ish) on the bottoms of my boots. If I then slide my left foot forward a bit (no effort to transfer any weight or anything) my right foot tends to roll onto the First Met Head and heel while my left foot tends to roll onto it's LTE.

Assuming I'm not biomechanically broken, isn't this an example of pelvic counter creating pronation?

.ma
post #23 of 51

Rick,

Thanks for the reply and glad that you have brought the science of Bio-mechanics and Gait into it.  



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

 

Hi, Ray.  It's simply a result of the gait mechanic principle.  Here are a couple of cuts and pastes that tell a bit about it.  

 

 

 

Quote:

The difference in time spent in the stance phase of running to walking is 60% of the complete gait cycle is spent in stance phase while walking and only 40% of the time is spent in stance phase during running. The time period during which the forces are applied is also dramatically different between running and walking. A walker moving at a comfortable speed of 120 steps per minute has a total cycle time of 1 second. A runner moving at 12 miles per hour has a cycle time of 0.6 second. However, the stance phase has decreased from .62 second to 0.2 seconds.

normalgait.gif

Stance Phase: Contact Subphase

The stance phase can further be subdivided into its three component phases. The first portion of the stance phase is contact. This phase begins with with the contact of the heel to the ground. This phase is completed when the remainder of the foot touches the ground. During this portion of the stance phase the foot is pronating at the subtalar joint. The leg is internally rotating and the foot is absorbing shock and functioning as a mobile adaptor to the ground surface. The next portion of the stance phase is called midstance.

 

 

 

Quote:

The reason why problems in the foot can affect the rest of the extremity is explained by the principle of the closed kinetic chain.

The closed kinetic chain begins with the foot and encompasses the entire lower extremity. It requires the foot to be in contact with the ground. When the foot is on the ground, any motion occurring in one portion of the limb affects all other parts.

A rotation inward of the tibia will cause the foot to pronate about the subtalar joint. Likewise a pronatory motion of the foot will cause the tibia, femur and the entire leg to follow it and rotate inward. With supination the tibia and limb will rotate externally.

 

 

As Dr. Pribut states below "The stance phase can further be subdivided into its three component phases" You have only included the Contact Subphase, the first of the three component phases. I think the other two, the Midstance Subphase and the Propulsion Subphase need to be considered as well and I have included them below. I think the underlined portions are relevant to a discussion about the relationship of Gait Mechanics and Skiing.

 

 Contact Subphase

The stance phase can further be subdivided into its three component phases. The first portion of the stance phase is contact. This phase begins with with the contact of the heel to the ground. This phase is completed when the remainder of the foot touches the ground. During this portion of the stance phase the foot is pronating at the subtalar joint. The leg is internally rotating and the foot is absorbing shock and functioning as a mobile adaptor to the ground surface. The next portion of the stance phase is called midstance.

 

 Midstance Subphase

Midstance Phase begins when the entire foot has contacted the ground. The body weight is passing over the foot as the tibia and the rest of the body are moving forward. The opposite leg is off the ground and the foot, in this phase, is bearing body weight alone. During this portion of the stance phase the leg is externally rotating and the foot is supinating at the subtalar joint. It is undergoing a change from being a mobile adaptor to becoming a rigid lever in order to propel the body forward during the final portion of the stance phase - Propulsion.

 

 

 Propulsion Subphase

Propulsion begins after heel off and ends with toe off. This phase constitutes the final 35% of stance phase. The body is propelled forward during this phase as weight is shifted to the opposite foot as it makes ground contact. The subtalar joint must be in a supinated position in order for this phase to be normal and efficient. If abnormal pronation is occurring, the midstance phase and this phase will probably be prolonged and weight transfer through the forefoot will not be normal. The swing phase begins immediately after toe off. The first portion of the swing phase is the forward swing which occurs as the foot is being carried forward. The knee is flexed and the foot is dorsiflexed at this time. The next segment of the swing phase is foot descent as the foot is being positioned in preparation for weight bearing and the muscles are stabilizing the body to absorb the shock of heel contact. At heel contact the swing phase ends and a new gait cycle begins.

  

I think it can be stipulated that a Ski Boot imposes limits on motion and positions that can be accessed by the foot and leg. Because of this Gait Phases prior to Midstance (actually until the knee passes the ankle) are not relevant. 

 

The black leg in the following gif. may help

Visualize    this

http://www.drpribut.com/sports/gaitphase2.gif 

 

  

 

post #24 of 51

michaelA,  

I will reply to your earlier post  tomorrow as it is getting late. You are on the right track with your understanding of this stuff !icon14.gif
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post

Hey Bud, not sure if my legs are just weird or what but...

When I stand in a normal-width stance with no tip-lead on my skis, my feet are pretty much 'flat' (ish) on the bottoms of my boots. If I then slide my left foot forward a bit (no effort to transfer any weight or anything) my right foot tends to roll onto the First Met Head and heel while my left foot tends to roll onto it's LTE.

Assuming I'm not biomechanically broken, isn't this an example of pelvic counter creating pronation?

.ma


When you slide your left foot forward it creates counter to the right foot it rotates your right femur to the outside and supinates the right foot.

Many incorrectly think that pronation is how one gets pressure to to first metatarsal.

 

Quote:Dr. Pribut  

The reason why problems in the foot can affect the rest of the extremity is explained by the principle of the closed kinetic chain.

The closed kinetic chain begins with the foot and encompasses the entire lower extremity. It requires the foot to be in contact with the ground. When the foot is on the ground, any motion occurring in one portion of the limb affects all other parts.

A rotation inward of the tibia will cause the foot to pronate about the subtalar joint. Likewise a pronatory motion of the foot will cause the tibia, femur and the entire leg to follow it and rotate inward. With supination the tibia and limb will rotate externally. 


 

post #25 of 51
Thanks Ray, I'm certainly interested in your response.

One area of clarity I'd request is that you be very specific about Supinating vs. Supination (I get confused because people often use the terms interchangeably). Just because a foot is Supinating doesn't mean it's fully Supinated yet and to me there's a big difference (same goes for states of Pronation).

I bring this up because in the earlier video the fellow mentions re-supination and I'm not clear if he means the foot is in the process of supinating (if so, what % from minimum to maximum?) or if he means it's in a state fully Supinated.

PS: Take your time on your write up - it's a complicated topic and verifiable clarity trumps speed of delivery.

.ma
post #26 of 51
Thread Starter 

I will let Raycantu follow up on this topic as he is the C-ped, but as to the terminology of supination and pronation, instructors should understand that these actions are a combination of three planes of  motion.  Eversion, abduction, and dorsiflexion comprise pronation and inversion, adduction, and plantar flexion comprise supination.  We as instructors are probably more accurate discussing inversion and eversion in our lessons for clarity.

post #27 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post

Hey Bud, not sure if my legs are just weird or what but...

When I stand in a normal-width stance with no tip-lead on my skis, my feet are pretty much 'flat' (ish) on the bottoms of my boots. If I then slide my left foot forward a bit (no effort to transfer any weight or anything) my right foot tends to roll onto the First Met Head and heel while my left foot tends to roll onto it's LTE.

Assuming I'm not biomechanically broken, isn't this an example of pelvic counter creating pronation?

.ma


Perhaps more pelvic tilt than counter?

post #28 of 51
That may (possibly) play a role.

But trying it again with as little pelvic tilt as possible... it still seems like the stance foot ends up rolling to the inside. As a matter of fact, that whole leg seems to 'roll outward' along with the pelvis' rotation.

I've always been interested in the mechanical minutia out here in the observable world but haven't spent much time examining the minutia over what transpires inside a body. Interesting stuff.

.ma
post #29 of 51
Thread Starter 

You lost me there michaelA, you said your stance foot rolls to the inside but that your whole leg seems to roll outward?  I am having a difficult time visualizing this?

post #30 of 51
Hey - I did say my legs were kinda weird, didn't I? biggrin.gif

OK, I was running out the door during that last post so I re-checked.

... as I slide my left foot forward my pelvis rotates to the right, my right foot pronates and ...wait for it... my pants-leg rotates to the outside. OK, that was an observational oops. Turns out my actual leg seems to stay pretty much rotationally the same (this time I watched the actual knee).

Certainly the action puts me onto the inside of my right foot and that makes sense geometrically. As the pelvis rotates the distance between hip sockets is reduced (from a frontal perspective) thus tipping the upper end of one or both legs toward the inside (medially).

.ma
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