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Fischer Wate 78 vs kastle mx78?

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 

My two skis are an old salamon xscream 2004 which i need to replace and a 2009 fischer misfit. I am looking to replace the xscream for when I ski the hardpack and the bumps. I want something that is going to hold edge at high speeds, but also flex enough to perform in the bumps.

 

I am trying to decide between a Fischer Watea 78 either the 174 or the 167 or a kastle mx 78.

 

I have found a new Watea with bindings for 550 or a pair of demo kastles for 550. The kastle have about 30 days on them so that concerns me.

 

What are your thoughts? If I go with the fishcer what length should i go with? I have not skied either of these skis btw. Thank you for the input

post #2 of 23
Thread Starter 

Tips on bindings for these set ups would be greatly appreciated also

post #3 of 23

Suggest you search, check the reviews of each. Really different skis in feel, performance, and target skier. Bindings are irrelevant here...

post #4 of 23
i ski the watea 78's in a 170 with Salomon Z12's. Very light and very powerful nimble ski especially good in soft snow and moguls.This ski has been at the top of countless tests in many magazine tests in the past 4 yearss.They don't feel as powerful as a traditional carving slalom ski but as a all mountain ski they are excellent in soft snow, powder and bumps. I cannot under estimate how powerful this ski for such a light ski. I am 6:2 and 205 pounds.
post #5 of 23

Check out this review of the Watea 78 by Epic's Sierra Jim. If you decide to buy the Watea, pm Philpug who works with Sierra Jim at Start Haus and see what kind of deal he can offer.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuIXFn2oIfg&NR=1

 

It may come down to where you ski - east or west. Per SJ's review, the Watea 78 has a soft snow bias and may be a better choice for the west.

 

Kastle would rule in the east. Reviews of the Kastle MX 78 and the entire MX line are great. The Kastle's MX 78 will shine on harder snow and they do very well in soft snow also. They turn as though one size smaller and handle higher speeds very well. If you can see and feel the Kastle's I would not be overly worried about 30 days. I ski a Kastle MX 88 that was a demo and it skis great. I did get to buy the actual ski I demo'd though. Kastle's get great reviews for the quality of material and workmanship. You did not state if these come with bindings so the added cost if sold flat becomes a consideration.. Search the gear section in Epic for reviews of the MX78 for a lot more info.

post #6 of 23
Thread Starter 

The kastles I would be buying online without seeing them. Does anyone know a kastle dealer in VT? I am going to killington this weekend, I have never even seen a kastle in store, but I have heard nothing but wonderful things.

 

I am looking for a hard snow condition ski, so I am leaning towards the kastles or a fischer rx8, head peak 78, volkl ac 30 or even possibly a kendo. I know a kendo is a little wider, but I have heard great things about this ski as well. I am just worried that I may be trading to much in the direction of edge hold an carving and sacraficing bump performance with latter skis. 

post #7 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by TFull View Post

My two skis are an old salamon xscream 2004 which i need to replace and a 2009 fischer misfit. I am looking to replace the xscream for when I ski the hardpack and the bumps. I want something that is going to hold edge at high speeds, but also flex enough to perform in the bumps.

 

I am trying to decide between a Fischer Watea 78 either the 174 or the 167 or a kastle mx 78.

 

I have found a new Watea with bindings for 550 or a pair of demo kastles for 550. The kastle have about 30 days on them so that concerns me.

 

What are your thoughts? If I go with the fishcer what length should i go with? I have not skied either of these skis btw. Thank you for the input



The Watea 78 is a moderately high performance ski that is great for advanced intermediates and less aggressive advanced skiers, but doesn't have the stability or power underfoot of, say the higher level Wateas. We use it as our "Performance Rental" and it does well in that capacity, but it is not really an expert-level ski.  The MX78 is an awesome ski, at the top of it's game in pretty much every respect (you can read my review here:  http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/89891/kastle-mx78-and-blizzard-magnum-8-1-max  )

 

I have skied other skis that are close in performance to the MX78, but nothing in that width range exceeds it, at least that I have tried.  There isn't a ski that has the combination of sweet spot, race-like edge hold, smoothness and forgiveness in crud, and stability, that I have tried.  It might be the most versatile ski ever made....With that said, there are lots of good skis out there. Other skis that are in that performance window that I really like are the Blizzard Magnum 8.1, Fischer Motive 84, Elan 82Xti, Stockli XXL, and a few others.

 

A recent customer, who spent a week in CO skiing off-piste crud and bumps (and who was somewhat sceptical of the hype surrounding the Kastle lineup) sent me a message after the trip, calling the ski "magical" and the best he had ever been on.  

post #8 of 23
Thread Starter 



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgcatching View Post



 


The Watea 78 is a moderately high performance ski that is great for advanced intermediates and less aggressive advanced skiers, but doesn't have the stability or power underfoot of, say the higher level Wateas. We use it as our "Performance Rental" and it does well in that capacity, but it is not really an expert-level ski.  The MX78 is an awesome ski, at the top of it's game in pretty much every respect (you can read my review here:  http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/89891/kastle-mx78-and-blizzard-magnum-8-1-max  )

 

 

Yea I would say the watea 78 may not be for me then. I am a pretty aggressive skier. Actually I am very aggressive, I am not claiming to be the best skier by any means, but I like to ski hard and push the pace, I rarely mail it in and just cruise.

post #9 of 23



TFull,

 

The "Boot Pro", in Ludlow, VT (Okemo) carries the Kastle line and also has demos. Only a short drive down Rt. 100 from Killington.  The shop owner is Shon Raichot (sp) and is great to do business with.

 

Regards,

Doug

\

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TFull View Post

The kastles I would be buying online without seeing them. Does anyone know a kastle dealer in VT? I am going to killington this weekend, I have never even seen a kastle in store, but I have heard nothing but wonderful things.

 

I am looking for a hard snow condition ski, so I am leaning towards the kastles or a fischer rx8, head peak 78, volkl ac 30 or even possibly a kendo. I know a kendo is a little wider, but I have heard great things about this ski as well. I am just worried that I may be trading to much in the direction of edge hold an carving and sacraficing bump performance with latter skis. 

post #10 of 23
Thread Starter 

 dawgcatching

 

Alright I read your review as well as a few other on the mx 78. It sounds awesome,

 

I NEED to demo it. I am just afraid it may not fit my budget. I know the mx78 is in a league of its own, but any suggestions for anotehr ski similar to the mx78 that may be under a grand new? Maybe the blizzard 8.1?.

 

You did not mention how the mx78 was in the bumps, did you get a chance to put them through any moguls?

post #11 of 23



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TFull View Post

... I NEED to demo it. I am just afraid it may not fit my budget. ...

 

 

Tfull, A big of sage advice for you. Don't demo it if it doesn't fit into your budget lest your budget start growing and growing after you demo. The MX78 was a bit of a big ski for me to get used to ... definatly loves to go fast and ski fairly agressive. I can take it in the bumps but I'm not good enough to say that I enjoy it in them -- i'll grab my softer all-moutain twins for confidence. That being said - I have all year to grow into these ... we'll see what happens at the end of the season. I bet I'm not as fast to change out of them :)

 

 

post #12 of 23

If you are going to be at Killington this weekend and the Fischer RX8 is on your radar, consider the Fischer Progressor 8+ instead.  The Forerunner Ski Shop on the access road has some leftovers with bindings for $450.  A great deal on a great ski.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by TFull View Post

The kastles I would be buying online without seeing them. Does anyone know a kastle dealer in VT? I am going to killington this weekend, I have never even seen a kastle in store, but I have heard nothing but wonderful things.

 

I am looking for a hard snow condition ski, so I am leaning towards the kastles or a fischer rx8, head peak 78, volkl ac 30 or even possibly a kendo. I know a kendo is a little wider, but I have heard great things about this ski as well. I am just worried that I may be trading to much in the direction of edge hold an carving and sacraficing bump performance with latter skis. 

post #13 of 23

i bought head im 78's at foreunner last year..... all i can say is i'd never patronize that shop again......... caveat emptor.

 

i second boot pro, shon has demos for sale as well, fwiw, i prefer the mx 88 and it performs surprisingly well in the bumps. u can also check out the line prophet 90

they are more reasonably priced and are a great all mountain ski.

good luck........

post #14 of 23

ps.. the rx8 is a terrific bump ski as well, they hold ice well too. ive been skiing them for the last 3 years in tough vt. conditions.  you may find a pair at sports odyssey in ludlow.

post #15 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by TFull View Post

The kastles I would be buying online without seeing them. Does anyone know a kastle dealer in VT? I am going to killington this weekend, I have never even seen a kastle in store, but I have heard nothing but wonderful things.

 

I am looking for a hard snow condition ski, so I am leaning towards the kastles or a fischer rx8, head peak 78, volkl ac 30 or even possibly a kendo. I know a kendo is a little wider, but I have heard great things about this ski as well. I am just worried that I may be trading to much in the direction of edge hold an carving and sacraficing bump performance with latter skis. 



skied the kastle 78 yesterday; it was tops on  my list of hitech skis to try this year and i was somewhat disappointed.  they need to go fast all the time and thats the only way to ski them.  they do one trick and thats all and they dont even do that awesome, plus they seem to have a mind of their own, which was scary at speed.  sorry.  thats just my opinion, so i suggest you try them before you buy them.  they were super light though.  i did meet their rep/salesman who said that they do sell direct and there's no dealers yet.  i really don't get that ski?  it's in an all mountain  category, but when i gave the rep my opinion, he told me exactly how to ski it and in exactly what conditions to ski it in.  not impressed.

 

 

post #16 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeeter984 View Post they need to go fast all the time and thats the only way to ski them.  they do one trick and thats all and they dont even do that awesome, plus they seem to have a mind of their own, which was scary at speed... i did meet their rep/salesman who said that they do sell direct and there's no dealers yet. 

Odd, I found Kastles in general to be more versatile in terms of speed than most other skis; IMO partly due to the dual radius ands cutout tip that makes them easy to initiate. Like some Blizzards they are a stiffer ski that's feasible to work at low speeds. Wonder if you had a longer demo than you needed, or perhaps your technique? Kastles are not for back seat drivers...

 

On the second point, unclear what you mean. How can there be no dealers? Do you mean where you live? 
 

OP: If you are honestly a decent skier, these are a no-brainer in the correct length. Exceptions: Realize that the white topsheet marks up easily, so a used Kastle will have some cosmetic scratches. The bases are bomber. But if you are heavier, you may overpower the 168's, so go 176 at least. If you're unwilling to go without demoing, and can't swing that, suggest thinking about the Blizzard 8.1's. Very different feel, but nearly as good. 

post #17 of 23

 



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by skeeter984 View Post they need to go fast all the time and thats the only way to ski them.  they do one trick and thats all and they dont even do that awesome, plus they seem to have a mind of their own, which was scary at speed... i did meet their rep/salesman who said that they do sell direct and there's no dealers yet. 

Odd, I found Kastles in general to be more versatile in terms of speed than most other skis; IMO partly due to the dual radius ands cutout tip that makes them easy to initiate. Like some Blizzards they are a stiffer ski that's feasible to work at low speeds. Wonder if you had a longer demo than you needed, or perhaps your technique? Kastles are not for back seat drivers...

 

On the second point, unclear what you mean. How can there be no dealers? Do you mean where you live? 
 

OP: If you are honestly a decent skier, these are a no-brainer in the correct length. Exceptions: Realize that the white topsheet marks up easily, so a used Kastle will have some cosmetic scratches. The bases are bomber. But if you are heavier, you may overpower the 168's, so go 176 at least. If you're unwilling to go without demoing, and can't swing that, suggest thinking about the Blizzard 8.1's. Very different feel, but nearly as good


 

he was referring to local dealers.

 

i was skiing the correct length.

 

there was no problem with my technique.  it did kick me in the back seat, which is when i realized i had to be more aggressive with it. 

 

i just didn't like the ski and when i told the guy about it, he got real defensive (which i somewhat understand).  as far as my statement about them needing to be skied fast, that was what the rep said to me and i totally agree. 

post #18 of 23

Hey TFull, if you can get up to Stowe I have the MX78 for demo in 160, 168 and 176 as well as the MX88 and the MX98 and LX82 and LX72... basically if you want to demo a Kastle we've got many options. If you want to compare a Kastle to a Stockli (arguably their closest comp.) I've got a bunch of options.

post #19 of 23



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeeter984 View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by TFull View Post

The kastles I would be buying online without seeing them. Does anyone know a kastle dealer in VT? I am going to killington this weekend, I have never even seen a kastle in store, but I have heard nothing but wonderful things.

 

I am looking for a hard snow condition ski, so I am leaning towards the kastles or a fischer rx8, head peak 78, volkl ac 30 or even possibly a kendo. I know a kendo is a little wider, but I have heard great things about this ski as well. I am just worried that I may be trading to much in the direction of edge hold an carving and sacraficing bump performance with latter skis. 



skied the kastle 78 yesterday; it was tops on  my list of hitech skis to try this year and i was somewhat disappointed.  they need to go fast all the time and thats the only way to ski them.  they do one trick and thats all and they dont even do that awesome, plus they seem to have a mind of their own, which was scary at speed.  sorry.  thats just my opinion, so i suggest you try them before you buy them.  they were super light though.  i did meet their rep/salesman who said that they do sell direct and there's no dealers yet.  i really don't get that ski?  it's in an all mountain  category, but when i gave the rep my opinion, he told me exactly how to ski it and in exactly what conditions to ski it in.  not impressed.

 
 

 

I also find your accessment somewhat puzzling. I've got about 7-8 days on my pair, and have had the chance to ski them in just about every conceiveable condition. I've found that they are the most versatile skis I have ever had, and I've had a lot of them. The part about them not being agreeable at slower speeds really has me stumped. I find that they are agreeable to just about anything that you want them to do. Really sounds like a tune issue here. Which doesn't surprise me in the least. Over the years, I've really come to question the value of demoing skis just because of the consistently poor tunes that I've experienced. I'll admit that I bought my Kastles with out ever trying them. I bought them strictly on Dawg's recommendation, which to me has much more value than demoing with hit or miss tunes. Case in point, I remember a few years back, I demoed a pair of skis I was interested in. Took one run and couldn't bring them back fast enough. Absolutely the worst pair of skis I've ever had on my feet. I saw the same pair of skis in a shop a few weeks later, and decided to try them again, my thinking being that no pair of skis could be that bad. Turns out that the second pair I tried were nothing like the first pair. Ended up buying them on the spot, and they turned out to be one of my favorite skis of all time.

post #20 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeeter984 View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by TFull View Post

The kastles I would be buying online without seeing them. Does anyone know a kastle dealer in VT? I am going to killington this weekend, I have never even seen a kastle in store, but I have heard nothing but wonderful things.

 

I am looking for a hard snow condition ski, so I am leaning towards the kastles or a fischer rx8, head peak 78, volkl ac 30 or even possibly a kendo. I know a kendo is a little wider, but I have heard great things about this ski as well. I am just worried that I may be trading to much in the direction of edge hold an carving and sacraficing bump performance with latter skis. 



skied the kastle 78 yesterday; it was tops on  my list of hitech skis to try this year and i was somewhat disappointed.  they need to go fast all the time and thats the only way to ski them.  they do one trick and thats all and they dont even do that awesome, plus they seem to have a mind of their own, which was scary at speed.  sorry.  thats just my opinion, so i suggest you try them before you buy them.  they were super light though.  i did meet their rep/salesman who said that they do sell direct and there's no dealers yet.  i really don't get that ski?  it's in an all mountain  category, but when i gave the rep my opinion, he told me exactly how to ski it and in exactly what conditions to ski it in.  not impressed.

 

 

What length?  Makes a huge difference. For me, the 168cm is a super fun carver, versatile, easy, quite stable; the 176cm is a serious ski, with serious stability, but no fooling around on the longer length; it isn't tiring, but wants to be skied from the cuff of the boot (no backseat driving).
 

post #21 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgcatching View Post
What length?  Makes a huge difference. For me, the 168cm is a super fun carver, versatile, easy, quite stable; the 176cm is a serious ski, with serious stability, but no fooling around on the longer length; it isn't tiring, but wants to be skied from the cuff of the boot (no backseat driving).

 


It's gotta matter how much you weigh too. I am 200 lbs and feel like the 168 just folds up underneath me. The 176 is really easy to noodle around on and is great for lowspeed demos.

post #22 of 23

Take a look at the Motive's.  The Wateas are too soft for hardpack performance, while the MX78's are too stiff (hardpack oriented) for the bumps, regardless of how Kastle tries to sell them.  The Motive's are a nice in-between ski that will definately perform on the hardpack (the amount of life in the ski depends on what waist you get), but also can do the bumps and trees very well.  Unless you're in the trees and bumps all day, I would stray away from the Wateas.

post #23 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgcatching View Post
What length?  Makes a huge difference. For me, the 168cm is a super fun carver, versatile, easy, quite stable; the 176cm is a serious ski, with serious stability, but no fooling around on the longer length; it isn't tiring, but wants to be skied from the cuff of the boot (no backseat driving).

 


It's gotta matter how much you weigh too. I am 200 lbs and feel like the 168 just folds up underneath me. The 176 is really easy to noodle around on and is great for lowspeed demos.

 

Beginning to sound like weight is definitely a factor here. Two different opinions from skiers with a 50 lb weight difference. I'm about the same size as Epic, I ski the 176, and I totally agree with his accessment of the ski's slow speed ease and manuverability. I also agree word for word with Dawg's take, even though there is a significant weight difference between us, the only variable here being ski length. Put a 150 lb skier on a 176, and that might make it easier to explain why the skier might get the impression that the ski wants to run away from them.

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