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One vs Two Footed Skiing - Page 2  

post #31 of 42

Go ski on one foot for a day, then decide if skiing two footed once in a while wouldn't be nice too :D

post #32 of 42


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCJIM View Post

I'm not a tree skier yet.  I've started moguls and am getting better at them.  I'd say I'm a beginner mogul skier, but I ski the same way there, with some adjustments....Instead of the "regular" way of doing things in PMTS, for the bumps you can immediately weight the free ski on its outside edge and pull the other ski back--which makes that former inside ski an instantaneous outside ski.  It makes for very quick, effective turns.  In that case, it's still basically outside ski weighted, inside not.  Only difference is you immediately put weight on the inside ski to expedite the turn, transition.  

 

I ski moguls that way sometimes as well.  Sometimes I get some speed  control by pressuring the inside ski in the second half of the turn.  I use a lot of different skills as the situation requires.  You've proven my point that, as your skill improves and as you ski more demanding conditions, you need to learn more than just pressuring the outside ski. 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYCJIM View Post

 

I don't even know any other way.  I never learned any other way and don't want to be confused in learning any other.  It works for me. 

 

 

You are like my second year math students who still didn't know how much they didn't know.  The PMTS instructional method (not the ski technique) is like the old Austrian approach.  Master each skill before going on to the next skill in a fixed progression.  You won't have any idea of the value of the more advanced skills until they appear in the progression. That style of instruction has been around a long time (google Natur Teknik), It works fine for students with sufficient commitment to follow the plan, but it often leads to students who believe they have found THE ANSWER to every question, when in fact they just don't know what they don't know.  That's one reason why there's sometimes some push back against enthusiastic but relatively inexperienced PMTS students from experienced instructors.   But I'm glad it's working out for you.

 

BK


Edited by Bode Klammer - 12/16/10 at 12:42pm
post #33 of 42

To be clear... weighting, weight transfer, weight distribution... etc, are not PMTS terms. Using them to describe the system or it's merits demonstrates a minimal understanding of the system.

post #34 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

Go ski on one foot for a day, then decide if skiing two footed once in a while wouldn't be nice too :D



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post #35 of 42

Bode:  Thanks for that helpful info.

 

[quote by Helluvaskier...]To be clear... weighting, weight transfer, weight distribution... etc, are not PMTS terms. Using them to describe the system or it's merits demonstrates a minimal understanding of the system.[/quote]

 

Helluvaskier:  While I'm no PMTS expert I certainly have more than a minimal grasp on it.   I wasn't directly quoting anybody so I chose my own words.  But, you're technically right.  I should have used these more exact terms which are used in "Anybody Can Be An Expert Skier 2"...

 

"Weighted Release."  A whole chapter of it, Chapter 8. P.79

 

"Balance Transfer."  P. 42 

post #36 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post

 

You are like my second year math students who still didn't know how much they didn't know.  The PMTS instructional method (not the ski technique) is like the old Austrian approach.  Master each skill before going on to the next skill in a fixed progression.  You won't have any idea of the value of the more advanced skills until they appear in the progression. That style of instruction has been around a long time (google Natur Teknik), It works fine for students with sufficient commitment to follow the plan, but it often leads to students who believe they have found THE ANSWER to every question, when in fact they just don't know what they don't know.  That's one reason why there's sometimes some push back against enthusiastic but relatively inexperienced PMTS students from experienced instructors.   But I'm glad it's working out for you.

 

BK


This is pretty much all incorrect. Despite NYCJIM's obvious blunders, you are not any more of a PMTS expert than he is. The progression is the complete opposite of fixed (accept for maybe first-timers who have never skied before), and not based on a skills progression at all. It is a system based on movements that are all learned simultaneously, progressed simultaneously, and revisited throughout a skier's development. There is no "plan". Movement deficiencies are targeted, exploited, corrected, and put back into the whole package. These are targeted on a per-skier basis - not as a one-size fits all approach.

 

Is there any difference between a second grader who thinks they know everything and a college grad who thinks they know everything if they are equally uninformed in the eyes of someone with work experience in multiple fields and a masters degree? The advantage of the second grader is there is still plenty of time to teach them what they don't know. When evaluating something one knows nothing about, it is usually good to research and learn before arriving at a definitive conclusion...

post #37 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCJIM View Post


"Balance Transfer."  P. 42 



To be clear - this is why I started with a description that used balance in this thread. There is a HUGE difference between teaching a weight transfer and a balance transfer. To some it might be semantics, but I assure you it is not. Balance transfer assumes that the skier is moving from balanced on one leg to the other. Weight distribution is mostly irrelevant accept that you will have a higher percentage of the distribution aimed toward the leg you're balancing with.

post #38 of 42



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post

NYCJIM - what about a weighted release? Be careful discerning the difference between weighting and where you are balanced. If I were to give the instructions you just recited to a group of racers not familiar with said teaching system I would get a vastly different result from what is actually taught by that teaching system. Trust me when I say it isn't about weighting the skis. Review your literature (specifically the instructor manual) and see how much balance is mentioned as opposed to weighting.

 

In addition, read Essentials and consider the topic of "side loading."  In expert turns, you want to engage the inside ski (which means putting some weight on it) in order to allow angles to develop.  But even though the inside ski is bearing weight, balance is solidly on the outside ski.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCJIM View Post

Yes, I do believe the inside ski is very active.  I just don't have my weight on it.  


Ironically, that would mean that you are performing a weighted release (where the weight stays on the old stance foot through the release).  That would be a release, engage, transfer sequence.  The more typical sequence is release, transfer, engage which involves a weight and balance transfer to the old free foot as a result of relaxing the stance leg.  Relaxing and tipping the old stance leg then draws the old free foot onto its new edge.  That would be the sequence of a one or a two-footed release. 

 

The point of a weighted release is to help you learn to move your hips into the turn.  It is also sometimes a necessity in high performance sking when the released energy is such that an immediate balance transfer simply isn't possible.  However, the reason that PMTS starts by teaching one and two footed releases is to teach you to stand properly on your skis, which means not only being able to balance on your outside ski but also to be able to adjust balance as needed based on conditions. One footed releases require active and immediate transfers of weight (and therefore balance) while two footed releases allow for more control over the transfer of balance.

 

The silly thing about this debate is that the Phantom Move (which is presumably why people think that PMTS is about one-footed sking) is not final form.  It is a mechanism by which skiers are forced to learn how to balance on the outside ski (by virtue of the fact that the inside ski is partially lifted).  It is a fail-safe means of enforcing a complete weight transfer, which forces a balance transfer.  Why is this emphasized?  Because it is impossible to make expert "two-footed" turns without being able to balance properly on the outside ski.  There is no point in even trying to ski "two-footed" until you have mastered this very basic skill. 


Edited by geoffda - 12/16/10 at 6:00pm
post #39 of 42

No, not to argue but to clarify, what I'm doing is not the "weighted release."  The "weighted release" P.83, Step 3, Fig. C, is NOT what I'm doing:  "Tip the downhill ski to the outside edge while standing and balancing on it."  I'm not doing that.

 

That's not what I'm doing when I say my free foot is active and my weight is on the outside ski.    I'm doing The Phantom Move: Release, Transfer and Engagement.  P. 60.  It's how I ski 99.9% of the time.   I've experimented with the Weighted Release in practice.    
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post


Quote:
 
Originally Posted by NYCJIM View Post

Yes, I do believe the inside ski is very active.  I just don't have my weight on it.  


Ironically, that would mean that you are performing a weighted release (where the weight stays on the old stance foot through the release).   

 

 

post #40 of 42

I suspected that was the case, but your responses to Jamt sounded like you were describing a weighted release.  Thanks for clarifying.  So when you release, do you relax your stance ski by lifting it; i.e moving directly into the Phantom Move?  If so, that would be a one-footed release to a Phantom Move, otherwise known as a Super Phantom Transition.  Doing that would cause an immediate and total weight and balance transfer to the free foot and would for the briefest of moments have you balancing on your little-toe-edge before your tipping movements and possibly the energy from the previous turn drew you into edge change.  The alternative would be a two-footed release where you relax and flatten the stance foot while still maintaining snow contact.  In that case the weight transfer is more than likely partial and the balance transfer may (or may not) be somewhat delayed until you begin your Phantom Move.  Or perhaps you use both? 

 

With either approach you are ultimately balancing on your outside ski which is great.  Not only have  you discovered how to ski in balance which it sounds like is serving you extremely well in your current skiing, but it also provides the basis for you to evolve to "two-footed" skiing should you so desire.  If you haven't already, master the two footed release.  Once you can do that, you can start experimenting with side-loading to fully engage the inside ski.

 

Ultimately, "two-footed" skiing (at least in the PMTS sense) is the ultimate refinement of the one-footed release to Phantom Move.  You've already got the core movements you need based on what you are already doing.  If you keep refining them, they lead to the two-footed release, and ultimately to two-footed skiing.  If you want it, all you have to do is go and get it :).


Edited by geoffda - 12/16/10 at 6:02pm
post #41 of 42

Yes, I relax the stance ski, flatten it, then lift to transfer balance to the inside ski, making it the new stance.  I'm going to go over the drills with all the releases and exercises this winter because I want to by super fast with turns in the moguls.

 

Oh, yes, the Super Phantom is what I was briefly practicing last winter.  

post #42 of 42

We are closing this thread due to problems that have occurred in the past with discussions concerning "good and bad" systems of teaching.  We are discussing the parameters of debates involved in this thread and will hopefully reopen the thread with an explanation of our concerns that have come up here, and in several other threads. 

 

Please be patient while we discuss this, and we should be back to reopen the thread.
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