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relatively new skier's question about edges/twin tips

post #1 of 13
Thread Starter 

hello all, this is my first post in this forum though i've been lurking for a while. Anyway this season i decided to take up skiing instead of snowboarding, because my love is to explore different terrain and play around in the woods, something that in my opinion is easier to do on skis than a snowboard. So far i'm loving skiing and picking it up really fast, im starting to ride some harder terrain including some small moguls and some of the more open glades. I rented my gear for the season, and the people at the ski shop gave me some volkl ac unlimited skis (im just reading what is written on top of the skis, dont know much about different models/manufacturers). my friends told me that they were racing skis and i found that i was enjoying myself much more and making much easier turns on my friend's public enemy twin tips, my skis would catch edges more easily and be harder to make sharp turns at lower speeds. It seemed that the edges of the twin tips were much easier to break free and thus make sharper turns at lower speeds, something that is very useful for riding it the woods. Anyway, the great thing about renting gear for the season is that i can switch my skis for different ones whenever, so i was wondering what factors make my friend's twin tips easier to ride for the type of skiing i want to do (playing around in trees and moguls) so i can know what to ask for at my local ski shop. is this maneuverability typical of all twin tips in which case i could just ask for twin tips (i dont want to be the noob that has twins just to look cool though :), or is it from different edges/flex pattern/shape.

ps the volkls and the public enemies are 160 and 159 respectively

thanks for your help


Edited by falcor - 12/13/10 at 6:59pm
post #2 of 13
Thread Starter 

anyone?

post #3 of 13
Thread Starter 

maybe my question wasnt very clear. what i want to know is what features make twin tips more maneuverable and agile? Is it pretty safe to go with a twin tip if you want a good agile ski for the trees and powder?(its what i see everyone using in that terrain)


Edited by falcor - 12/15/10 at 4:51pm
post #4 of 13

I have been wondering the same thing. But no one is going to think you're a noob just because you have twin tips and you aren't skiing backwards.

post #5 of 13

It's because the Volkls are carving skis and you are trying to skid them. The twin tips are fatter and have less sidecut so they are much more agreeable to skidding. If you have no interest in changing your technique then IMO the public enemies will probably be easier for you to use. Most people here would probably tell you to keep the AC Unlimited and take a lesson or work on tipping the skis to turn using their sidecut instead of pushing the tails out.

post #6 of 13

I'm no authority, but since nobody's helping you out...

 

Your Volkl's are likely not race skis.  The AC stands for "all conditions" according to various web sources.  They may have certain race-inspired features such as sidecut, camber, good edge grip, etc.

 

Rather than getting skis that skid more easily, why not learn to ski with less skidding?  From what I understand, better skiing often involves less skidding, unless we're talking about powder.  I'd also bet that one with better skills would be able to skid the AC's when desired.  Take some lessons.  Learn to carve.  Learn to bend the skis.  Learn a proper short radius turn.  Use that in moguls and trees.  Look up SVMM.

 

In the long run, you'll be better off investing in lessons early on rather than switching to easy-skid skis now.  Just my opinion.

post #7 of 13

As has been said above, the Volkl "AC" series isn't really a race ski, although it probably shares some characteristics with race skis.

 

One key reason why you find it easier to ski the public enemy's vs. the AC's is the shape of the tail.  The AC series has a pretty flat square tail, which (amoung other things) maximizes the amount of ski that's in length with the snow, which in turn maximizes edge grip, which in turn makes it somewhat unfriendly to heavily skidded turns -- i.e., the tail wants to keep gripping the snow, and the chattering you're feeling is the tail constantly breaking loose.

 

Public Enemy's (and many other skis) have skis that are turned up at the tail (i.e., twin tips).  This effectively decreases the amount of ski edge in contact with the snow and enables you to release the old turn a whole lot easier -- i.e., the ski just wants to let go.  When you're skiing bumps, trees, etc., there is a certain advantage to being able to release the old turn really easily and really quickly.

 

Also, the Public Enemy skis are nowhere nearly as stiff as the AC-series of skis, which is also contributing somewhat to how easily you can turn it.  At some level you've got to be able to bend the ski before you can cleanly turn it.  Bending a really stiff ski involves either you being heavy to begin with or skiing really fast so that you can recruit some extra forces from the turn into bending the ski.

 

Is one tail design better then the other?  Depends on what you're trying to do.  I prefer square-ish tailed skis as I live in New England and hardpack is a way of life.  i.e., I value edge grip.  I like skiing bumps, and yeah, sometimes there is a trade off -- i.e., lots of edge grip while skiing bumps isn't necessarily a good thing.  Then again, lots of edge grip while navigating the groomers that get me to the bump run is a good thing.  Six of one, half a dozen of the other...If I lived out west and never had to worry about needing lots of edge grip...  I might think differently.

post #8 of 13

Twin are easier to skid because they have softer flex. I am pretty good skier but easier to skid skis are great for what you want to ski for you or me.

 

Xela curious about this proper technique you speak of? I bet your proper technique wouldnt all hold a candle to someone who can skid well in all conditions when in trees.

 

chris719 who says skiiding or twin tips will cause you to push your tails out?

 

long story short if your goals are to ski tree and powder. get a twin tip. If your a good enough skier youll be able to ski them anywhere including high edge angle carving on groomers.

 

 

 

post #9 of 13
Thread Starter 

Thanks alot for all the answers, now i understand this all much better. unfortunately it takes a few days for the ski shop to get different skis ready for me, so ill be stuck with these b/c i dont want to miss days i could be skiing, so ill make do for now. I think i would rather have to develope better technique to carve on groomers and be able to zip around in the trees more easily than the other way around, so ill go for some twin tips when i get the chance. However im not at all interested in hitting the park, so what separates park twin tips from ones better for what i want to do?

post #10 of 13


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinF View Post

As has been said above, the Volkl "AC" series isn't really a race ski, although it probably shares some characteristics with race skis.

 

One key reason why you find it easier to ski the public enemy's vs. the AC's is the shape of the tail.  The AC series has a pretty flat square tail, which (amoung other things) maximizes the amount of ski that's in length with the snow, which in turn maximizes edge grip, which in turn makes it somewhat unfriendly to heavily skidded turns -- i.e., the tail wants to keep gripping the snow, and the chattering you're feeling is the tail constantly breaking loose.

 

Public Enemy's (and many other skis) have skis that are turned up at the tail (i.e., twin tips).  This effectively decreases the amount of ski edge in contact with the snow and enables you to release the old turn a whole lot easier -- i.e., the ski just wants to let go.  When you're skiing bumps, trees, etc., there is a certain advantage to being able to release the old turn really easily and really quickly.

 

Also, the Public Enemy skis are nowhere nearly as stiff as the AC-series of skis, which is also contributing somewhat to how easily you can turn it.  At some level you've got to be able to bend the ski before you can cleanly turn it.  Bending a really stiff ski involves either you being heavy to begin with or skiing really fast so that you can recruit some extra forces from the turn into bending the ski.

 

Is one tail design better then the other?  Depends on what you're trying to do.  I prefer square-ish tailed skis as I live in New England and hardpack is a way of life.  i.e., I value edge grip.  I like skiing bumps, and yeah, sometimes there is a trade off -- i.e., lots of edge grip while skiing bumps isn't necessarily a good thing.  Then again, lots of edge grip while navigating the groomers that get me to the bump run is a good thing.  Six of one, half a dozen of the other...If I lived out west and never had to worry about needing lots of edge grip...  I might think differently.



what Kevinf says is the truth but he living and dieing by the sword. He admittedly doesnt ski woods well yet he values edge grip. He would ski woods better if was willing to give up alot of edge grip.

 

twin tips are better in the woods there is no question about it.

post #11 of 13

Bush, my bias comes from the information in the original post.  It's falcor's first season skiing.  While the K2 PE is a quality ski with a strong following, I tend to resist the idea of blaming the equipment until one is more experienced.  I wasn't advocating a single proper technique, nor would I suggest that I have one.  I was advocating for instruction over equipment switch.  From what I read here, you're a far better skier than I, and an instructor; so, I'm not going to dispute anything you say.  I was just giving advice when it appeared none was forthcoming.

post #12 of 13

I dont think the OP is going to take lessons he may, but either way a mid fat twin isnt impossible to learn on.  Most people on here knock them for how they lack edge grip but maybe its the skier that lacks edge grip. Sorry I was alittle harsh but I hate hearing 'proper" technique. there are so many shades of gray and also almost to much emphasis on carving which is a very limiting technique. someone who can only carve cant ski tree or bumps, or steeps or even a short radius turn on a groomer. someone who is an expert skidder can ski the whole mountain.

 

also learning to railroad track turn at a SL radius is really not a useful skill for what this guy wants to ski at all.  If he wants to be well rounded he will eventually need to learn a how to ski race ski or at least a race carver well. He can ski more places right now on the what I am recommending. also learning to make the twin work well on groomers will make skiing carvers a breeze. The point is no matter how good he gets the PE he is on would still be easier. thats not blaming the equipment that using the right tool for the job.

 

post #13 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post

Twin are easier to skid because they have softer flex. I am pretty good skier but easier to skid skis are great for what you want to ski for you or me.

 

Xela curious about this proper technique you speak of? I bet your proper technique wouldnt all hold a candle to someone who can skid well in all conditions when in trees.

 

chris719 who says skiiding or twin tips will cause you to push your tails out?

 

long story short if your goals are to ski tree and powder. get a twin tip. If your a good enough skier youll be able to ski them anywhere including high edge angle carving on groomers.

 

 

 


I don't follow, I didn't say twin tips cause you to push your tails out, or that skidding means you push your tails out.

 

How many new skiers who haven't had private lessons do you observe NOT pushing the tails out to make Z shaped turns though?

 

Are you sure longitudinal stiffness would make anything easier to skid? Seems to me torsional stiffness, shape, width, and edge bevel would cause more of a difference.

 

Twin tips are better for what he's doing, but I guess the question would be how often. I personally think that if I skied a PE on groomers all day I wouldn't have improved on groomers because there is less negative feedback from the ski.


Edited by chris719 - 12/15/10 at 6:13pm
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