Originally Posted by Matthias99
Originally Posted by tdk6
The issue of postive vs negative movements is tricky. It has nothing to do with physics or the way we ski.
No, I'm pretty sure it's rooted in physics. If I want to go left, starting by moving right is inefficient at best.
If we are wedging at snailz speed down a bunny hill with no intent other than turning a few times and then take the lift back up and catching some fresh air before relaxing in the bar, I totally fail to see what it has to do with efficiency? Does it make you more tired? No? Does it make you slower, not that it matters? No? So what then? And, BTW, there is nothing such rooted in physics. You obviously do not have a good grasp at physics.
For example if we are standing on a bunny hill gravity pulls us more or less straight down perpendicular to the snow. Moving our CoM "uphill", or lets say 45deg uphill to be more accureate becaue we never traverse 90deg to the fall line when we wedge, the "negative" effect is minor.
But it's there. You're moving in the 'wrong' direction to start the turn.
No, its a positive movement. All correct movements that aim to turn you into the fall line should be considered postive movements. A negative movement would be to try to turn the skis insted of relying on the skis turning you. Its only a question of how you look at it. And Im not moving in the wrong direction. Im moving my upper body just a tiny bit left to go HUGE MUCH RIGHT. Even if that was the wrong direction, which its not it would still be a minor nothing to the world action. And as I come out of the turn Im angulated with outside ski pressure with proper upper and lower body separation. Good form. Ready to take on what the mountain throws at me. Start carving, winning WC GS events. It can take me anywhere. Only the sky is the limit. Nothing negative and nothing to unlearn.
And remember that we are not turning at the point of our weight transfer so the move is to the side of where we are headding, 45deg across the slope. Once we start turning due to the weight transfer we do not move any more in the opposite direction any more than if we stand straight totally straight.
So at some point you have to stop moving uphill and start moving downhill again, right? Seems like wasted effort to me.
Seems like you never did it to me. Or understood what you were doing. The thing is that you move your upper body slightly to the left to establish outside ski pressure and as a result of the shift in pressure under your skis you start turning.
And if you look at the video the movement if minor. Hardly visiable sometimes.
Only because the hill is so flat. On a steeper pitch you'd need a much stronger movement in that direction, since more of your weight would naturally be on the downhill ski. On a very steep pitch it would be like doing a leg press to move your COM uphill.
You are perfectly right. And this is where my method proves its working. Try to move your gliding wedge to a steeper pitch and try to initiate the wedge turn by flattening your outside ski and see what happens. You will be sliding down the hill. There will not be any pressure building up on your new outside ski. Remember, its been said a million times that the psia "gliding wedge" only works on very flat terrain and that you need loads of speed and you make very wide turns. Nothing for the steeps in other words. And why do you want to take this discussion into the steeps. We are wedging beginner style. But the steeper it is the more important the up move becomes. You need to overcome gravity.
Also, by tipping your upper body left to turn right you actually move your CoM to your right. In the positive direction. Your hips. They move into the turn. The knick between your upper and lower body is what is called angulation.
Angulation's great. But why not just drop your hip into the turn without moving your upper body the other way? Your COM is certainly more to the inside if you move your whole inside half into the turn, rather than moving your hip in and your shoulder out. Again, it just seems like an extra movement you don't need, AND it's in the wrong direction.
You clearly do not understand very fundamental issues. If you move your hip into the turn then you will be moving your weight onto your old outside/new inside ski. This is the total opposite of what you want to do. This is a very fundamental beginners falut. Its usually because the student is scared. He fears his skis will not turn. Therefore he tries to move everything into the turn. You are hung up on this negative movement thing. A basic thing with movements is that if you are falling to the right you should not try to go left. You should go right. You should move your right foot to the right. You should move your shoulders to the right. You should not move your left foot left or lean your shoulders to the left. Without you knowing it, this is what your body is dooing to keep you upright.
When we wedge we do not need to release the old outside ski. Both skis are brushing at a skidding angle and remain so for the entire turn.
Disagree. It is a LOT harder to make wedge turns if you hold the inside ski strongly on its edge. At the very least it needs to be at a lower edge angle than the outside ski. And it's much, much easier if the inside ski is flat or nearly flat on the snow, so it can pivot underneath you as the outside ski comes around. That's what makes the turn 'glidey' rather than 'brakey'.
Its only hard because you pressure it too much. As you shift your pressure to your new outside ski then it causes less friction. And remember that "glidy" is the same as low ski performance. "Braky" is the same as high ski performance.
This is what the "flattening of the old outside ski" theory builds on as well. Building up pressure on the outside ski. Im trying to point out that the movement of flattening the old outside ski alone will not be sufficient to build up the pressure on the new outside ski.
Flattening the inside ski and letting your COM start to move down the hill will shift your weight to the outside, since the outside ski will start to turn and push against you. Shifting your weight to the outside to try to make the ski turn seems like putting the cart before the horse to me. (I've heard people compare it to driving a car -- when you turn a corner, it feels like you're pulled to the outside. But moving your weight to the outside doesn't make the car turn.)
No, flattening the inside ski and letting your CoM start ot move down the hill will not shift your weight to the outside ski. The reason for this is that gravity was pushing against your old outside ski but now since you released it gravity will insted be pulling on your new outside ski down the fall line. This is what is called an "upside down position". Should be in your psia handbook. You make absolutely no sence, Im sorry. Your car antalogy is cute. Thats it. Cute. Nothing else. If you want better tracktion in a turn you should move your weight to the outside of the car. Every race car driver knows this.
Braking snow plow vs gliding wedge
It is a missconseption that the pressure method works only with a braking snowplow. It does not matter how wide or narrow the wedge is. Also not how high the edge angles are. Its all a matter of how fast you want to go and how wide you want to turn. Im claimed to be using a very wide braking wedge in my demos. Maybe so but on the other hand I was able to pull off the exact same kind of turns BB did in his video (where wedge was wide at times also) at snailz speed. If you need to depend on a very small wedge then you are doing something wrong. Usually speed is a compensation for bad technique. Thats rule # 1 in many sports.
I have no idea what you're talking about. You don't "depend on a small wedge" -- if anything, people learn to depend on a big braking wedge for speed control, because they can't finish their turns. It's way more efficient to control your speed through line choice. You can progress down the hill very, very slowly with gliding wedge turns -- the same way you can with parallel turns, by ending the turns going across or even slightly up the hill. If you never, EVER want to accelerate at all, then you need a braking wedge. But I don't think that is very good technique in general. It's tiring, because you're constantly forcing both skis to keep a high skid angle to control your speed.
Everything you say has no meaning since its based on falce theory. Its also not a matter of what you think or feel or have a hunch of. And its not always more efficient to controll your speed through line choice. Drop that thaught asap.
I get slammed for being stubborn. On the other hand Im the only one here putting some serious thaught AND EFFORT into this. Not repeting like a parrot stuff that I believe is true. I have gone out on the snow with the tasks in mind and made videos of it. How many of you can say the same?
I'm only "parroting" things that I've actually done out on the snow, and taught to people. This stuff works.
Beautiful words. But no substance. You dont know what works.
I'll see if I can get a few minutes of video the next time I'm out. Not sure if it would come out well at night on my phone, though. If the gf and I go somewhere during the day on Sunday, I can have her tape a couple quick demos.
I would love to see your video but I alredy know that you will not be putting up any video related to this topic.
But BB's video shows exactly what I would try to demo with wedge turns. If you don't think he's initiating those turns by releasing the inside edge, I'm not sure what else to tell you. If I make a video, it'll look like that, just not as good.
So you did not think I looked like BB in the tilted video?