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Three wedge turns. Brakey, glidey, glideiest - Page 5

post #121 of 133
Thread Starter 

T-Square,

 

Turn radius, I edited the post to make that clear. Thanks for catching that.

 

fom

post #122 of 133
Thread Starter 

Matthias99,

 

When you flatten the outside ski you are releasing the the force that is keeping your com from moving down the hill into the new turn. Without this force the body naturally moves into the new turn. It works without even trying to move the com. That's one of the reasons I like it so much with just one move (flatten the ski) the student gets pressure on the new outside ski, a steering angle on the new outside ski and movement of the com into the new arc. Since the wedge stance gives us an edged ski I believe we have all the ingredients needed for a ski to turn.

 

fom

post #123 of 133

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoldman View Post

As a point of interest, I take great pride in having neverever students that I teach making bigger radius, faster wedge turns on the beginner hill than any other instructor on our staff. I think that this is an important part of why my students so often make very rapid progress both in the type of turn they make and the terrain they are able to handle.

 

fom



I like it!  If we can encourage our beginners to enjoy the thrill of acceleration and not rush their turns (as long as we control the environment carefully) I believe they will develop great habits!   We must remember, as my new friend Jean Marc Blaze says, "it is called DOWNHILL skiing, we need to embrace the downhill part", meaning don't rush the top of the turn.

 

I am going to try this in my next beginner lesson!icon14.gif

post #124 of 133

 

 

But it's there.  You're moving in the 'wrong' direction to start the turn.

 

TDK6 said,

"No, its a positive movement. All correct movements that aim to turn you into the fall line should be considered postive movements. A negative movement would be to try to turn the skis insted of relying on the skis turning you. Its only a question of how you look at it. And Im not moving in the wrong direction. Im moving my upper body just a tiny bit left to go HUGE MUCH RIGHT. Even if that was the wrong direction, which its not it would still be a minor nothing to the world action. And as I come out of the turn Im angulated with outside ski pressure with proper upper and lower body separation. Good form. Ready to take on what the mountain throws at me. Start carving, winning WC GS events. It can take me anywhere. Only the sky is the limit. Nothing negative and nothing to unlearn."

 

 

All "correct" movements ...

 

Could you define "CORRECT" movements related to a stem or braking wedge for us?  While you consider tipping the torso left to go right a "correct" movement, and you consider a braking wedge correct,  most modern day instructors consider these braking movements.  

 

Imagine Skier "A" doing a braking wedge straight down the fall line......this is the ultimate example of skiing the FAST LINE SLOW.  To contrast this, skier "B" is skiing the SLOW LINE FAST, following the braking wedge skier making very round complete medium radius turns and traveling 3-4 times farther distance than the straight run braking wedger yet descending at the exact same speed.   Skier "B" is controlling his descent speed by completing his turns very far across or sometimes even up the hill (like jig saw puzzle piece turn shapes) yet skiing around that line as fast and efficiently as possible.

 

Using the "slow line fast" intent in all of our turns, even wedge turns, we nuture offensive skiing or "GO" turns as BB describes them.  Some resorts, including my home mountain Northstar at Tahoe, have built a special "terrain based teaching system" on their beginner slopes to facilitate gliding turns and avoid any braking movements, attempting to ingrain good habits from the first day on skis.  Is it possible to maintain this intent all the time? yes the intent will keep our turns rounder and smoother.  Will there be times we need to us braking movments??  Certainly, but by keeping our mental intent to ski around our chosen path as efficiently as possible, we can find the GO turns!

post #125 of 133

 

 

Pivot slips.

post #126 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoldman View Post

As a point of interest, I take great pride in having neverever students that I teach making bigger radius, faster wedge turns on the beginner hill than any other instructor on our staff. I think that this is an important part of why my students so often make very rapid progress both in the type of turn they make and the terrain they are able to handle.

 

fom



Boy, do I like this. This sounds like you are really teaching beginners to ski. icon14.gif

 

What do you do at the beginning of your lessons to bring out the aggressiveness of your students so they are comfortable with making long radius turns?  (I'll be honest.  I'm looking to steal some good ideas here.)

post #127 of 133

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Ok, you are calling me out.... here's my Cookie responce..

 

Just to be clear: I'm not trying to be a jerk here.  This is actually a very useful discussion IMO.

 

Quote:

If we are wedging at snailz speed down a bunny hill with no intent other than turning a few times and then take the lift back up and catching some fresh air before relaxing in the bar, I totally fail to see what it has to do with efficiency? Does it make you more tired? No? Does it make you slower, not that it matters? No? So what then?

 

Almost anything works on the bunny hill.  I would prefer to teach students techniques that won't wear them out when applied on a more difficult slope.

 

And I did find that trying to turn solely/mostly by active weight shift was slower and gave me less control over my turns.

 

Quote:
And, BTW, there is nothing such rooted in physics. You obviously do not have a good grasp at physics.

 

If your position is that good ski technique shouldn't be based in things like physics and biomechanics, I'm not sure why we're even having this discussion.

 

Quote:

Quote:
But it's there.  You're moving in the 'wrong' direction to start the turn.

No, its a positive movement. All correct movements that aim to turn you into the fall line should be considered postive movements.

 

 

That's such a vague definition that it's useless.  If I do movement A, then movement B, then I turn into the fall line, that doesn't mean that movement A is automatically a "positive" movement if it had nothing to do with the outcome.

 

Quote:
And Im not moving in the wrong direction. Im moving my upper body just a tiny bit left to go HUGE MUCH RIGHT. Even if that was the wrong direction, which its not it would still be a minor nothing to the world action. ...Nothing negative and nothing to unlearn.

 

The upper body move is unnecessary IMO.  And just on the basis of momentum, moving anything in the 'wrong' direction is more work than you really need to do.  The steeper the slope, the more noticeable the extra work becomes.

 

Quote:
Quote:
So at some point you have to stop moving uphill and start moving downhill again, right?  Seems like wasted effort to me.

Seems like you never did it to me. Or understood what you were doing. The thing is that you move your upper body slightly to the left to establish outside ski pressure and as a result of the shift in pressure under your skis you start turning.

 

That's some fancy double-talk you've got there.  Moving "slightly" in the wrong direction is still moving in the wrong direction.  If you want to angulate and establish an edge on the outside ski, why not just move your inside half into the turn?  When I went out and tried it, this worked better for me in practice.  Moving my upper body the 'wrong' way messed me up.

 

Quote:

 

Quote:
Only because the hill is so flat.  On a steeper pitch you'd need a much stronger movement in that direction, since more of your weight would naturally be on the downhill ski.  On a very steep pitch it would be like doing a leg press to move your COM uphill.

 

You are perfectly right. And this is where my method proves its working.

 

Those statements are incompatible.

 

Quote:
Try to move your gliding wedge to a steeper pitch and try to initiate the wedge turn by flattening your outside ski and see what happens. You will be sliding down the hill. There will not be any pressure building up on your new outside ski.

 

No, actually, it works just fine.  Since you still have some weight on the outside ski, the edge holds and accelerates around in an arc.  As it turns, it builds up pressure, since it's moving towards you.  It's easier if you let the skis match at the end of the turn; holding the wedged position with the inside ski is more difficult as it gets steeper.  (But that part is true with any kind of wedge turn.)

 

Quote:
Remember, its been said a million times that the psia "gliding wedge" only works on very flat terrain and that you need loads of speed and you make very wide turns. Nothing for the steeps in other words.

 

I didn't see anybody say that.  I certainly didn't say that, and I would completely disagree with that statement.  It's the same fundamental movement you use to start a parallel turn.

 

Quote:
And why do you want to take this discussion into the steeps. We are wedging beginner style. But the steeper it is the more important the up move becomes. You need to overcome gravity.

 

If your technique only works on very flat slopes, it's not very good.  And why do you want to 'overcome' gravity?  Aren't you trying to go down the hill, in the direction that gravity pulls?  Why not just let it pull you into the turn?

 

Quote:

Quote:
...why not just drop your hip into the turn without moving your upper body the other way?

If you move your hip into the turn then you will be moving your weight onto your old outside/new inside ski. This is the total opposite of what you want to do

 

Disagree.  You don't need a lot of weight on the outside ski at the top of the turn.  Pressure on it will develop as the ski comes around.  Moving a lot of weight onto that ski very early produced bad results for me.

 

Quote:
A basic thing with movements is that if you are falling to the right you should not try to go left. You should go right. You should move your right foot to the right. You should move your shoulders to the right. You should not move your left foot left or lean your shoulders to the left. Without you knowing it, this is what your body is dooing to keep you upright.

 

Consider that making a turn to the right on skis is not so fundamentally different from "falling to the right".  I want my legs to come around and catch me, not to pull back.

 

Quote:
Its only hard because you pressure [the inside ski] too much. As you shift your pressure to your new outside ski then [the inside ski] causes less friction.

 

This is true, but I can accomplish the same thing more easily by flattening the inside ski.  Otherwise I have to make a very strong move to the outside to reduce the grip of the inside ski enough to turn.  That tended to mess up the bottom of my turn.

 

Quote:
And remember that "glidy" is the same as low ski performance. "Braky" is the same as high ski performance.

 

Personally, I think my skis are perfoming better when they're sliding mostly or completely along their edges, rather than brushing sideways across the snow against a set edge.  It's certainly easier to use them that way.

 

Quote:
No, flattening the inside ski and letting your CoM start ot move down the hill will not shift your weight to the outside ski. The reason for this is that gravity was pushing against your old outside ski but now since you released it gravity will insted be pulling on your new outside ski down the fall line. This is what is called an "upside down position".

 

Flattening the inside ski by itself doesn't move my weight anywhere.  It's not supposed to.  I don't want to move my weight/COM anywhere; it's already where it should be.

 

Once the inside ski isn't pushing me back up the hill (as much), the outside ski starts to come around in an arc on its edge.  It has to, because it's at an angle with the snow and has some pressure on it, and I'm no longer holding it back with the edging/pressure from the inside ski.  As the outside ski starts to accelerate and turn, it pushes on me towards the inside of the turn, building pressure on the outside foot.

 

Quote:
Everything you say has no meaning since its based on falce theory. Its also not a matter of what you think or feel or have a hunch of.

 

Now you're just not even making sense.  This isn't some esoteric physics idea that can only be debated theoretically.  You can try this stuff on the snow.

 

Quote:
And its not always more efficient to controll your speed through line choice. Drop that thaught asap.

 

...so a braking wedge is more efficient than controlling your speed through turn shape?  I've tried both, and I disagree.  Or else you have a very funny definition of "efficient".

 

Quote:
Quote:
I'm only "parroting" things that I've actually done out on the snow, and taught to people.  This stuff works.

 

Beautiful words. But no substance. You dont know what works.

 

I was posting in another thread recently where someone tried to flat-out disagree with the personal experience of several other posters, myself included.

 

Frankly, I don't find this to be a very persuasive debate strategy.

 

Quote:
I would love to see your video but I alredy know that you will not be putting up any video related to this topic.

 

You seem to "know" lots of things.

 

Quote:
So you did not think I looked like BB in the tilted video?

 

No.  Like I said before, your weight appears to be too far back, your wedge is significantly larger, and looking at it again, you appear to be twisting/bending your upper body around.  (It's hard to tell exactly what you're doing in the first few turns, since you're far away from the camera.)

post #128 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 

 

But it's there.  You're moving in the 'wrong' direction to start the turn.

 

TDK6 said,

"No, its a positive movement. All correct movements that aim to turn you into the fall line should be considered postive movements. A negative movement would be to try to turn the skis insted of relying on the skis turning you. Its only a question of how you look at it. And Im not moving in the wrong direction. Im moving my upper body just a tiny bit left to go HUGE MUCH RIGHT. Even if that was the wrong direction, which its not it would still be a minor nothing to the world action. And as I come out of the turn Im angulated with outside ski pressure with proper upper and lower body separation. Good form. Ready to take on what the mountain throws at me. Start carving, winning WC GS events. It can take me anywhere. Only the sky is the limit. Nothing negative and nothing to unlearn."

 

 

All "correct" movements ...

 

Could you define "CORRECT" movements related to a stem or braking wedge for us?  While you consider tipping the torso left to go right a "correct" movement, and you consider a braking wedge correct,  most modern day instructors consider these braking movements.  

 

Imagine Skier "A" doing a braking wedge straight down the fall line......this is the ultimate example of skiing the FAST LINE SLOW.  To contrast this, skier "B" is skiing the SLOW LINE FAST, following the braking wedge skier making very round complete medium radius turns and traveling 3-4 times farther distance than the straight run braking wedger yet descending at the exact same speed.   Skier "B" is controlling his descent speed by completing his turns very far across or sometimes even up the hill (like jig saw puzzle piece turn shapes) yet skiing around that line as fast and efficiently as possible.

 

Using the "slow line fast" intent in all of our turns, even wedge turns, we nuture offensive skiing or "GO" turns as BB describes them.  Some resorts, including my home mountain Northstar at Tahoe, have built a special "terrain based teaching system" on their beginner slopes to facilitate gliding turns and avoid any braking movements, attempting to ingrain good habits from the first day on skis.  Is it possible to maintain this intent all the time? yes the intent will keep our turns rounder and smoother.  Will there be times we need to us braking movments??  Certainly, but by keeping our mental intent to ski around our chosen path as efficiently as possible, we can find the GO turns!


The terrain based teaching system sounds great. I dont think we will ever agree on negative vs positive movements. I think the ide of separating positive and negative movements is great. We are not just agreeing on what is positive and what is negative. At least we now know what the differences are between what we teach and you teach. Ski instruction is constantly evolving. That is good.

post #129 of 133

 

The terrain based teaching system sounds great. I dont think we will ever agree on negative vs positive movements. I think the ide of separating positive and negative movements is great. We are not just agreeing on what is positive and what is negative. At least we now know what the differences are between what we teach and you teach. Ski instruction is constantly evolving. That is good.


 

First I think we need to agree on what offensive and defensive movements are.   Ski instruction is constantly evolving and I am hopeful one day you will evolve with us!  

 

Wishing everyone who frequents this forum a Merry Christmas and thanking you for our conversations here.  I continually learn from our interactions and improve my understanding of the sport!  I tip my glass to you all!  Cheers!

 

bud

post #130 of 133
Thread Starter 

T-Square,

 

Hope you don't mind getting this in pieces.

 

First, there is a language thing involved. I have trained myself to avoid using the word turn. When I ask the student to flatten the right ski or point the skis to the right I describe the outcome as 'going right' not as a turn or turning. When we get out on the hill I never say 'we're going to make turns as we go down" but instead talk about going over there toward the ski lift, then down and around the slow sign, then over by the aspen trees, then make a big arc back over by the magic carpet area. If we want to go slower we keep going right or left until we start to go up the hill if necessary. This way of thinking gets the student to make big arcs to get to where they are going and not fear the acceleration that they feel when they point the skis down the hill. In fact they learn that to get 'over there' they have to embrace the speed they develop or they won't be able to get there. They learn that to get somewhere they need to let the skis glide forward and that if they ski with the brakes on they won't get there. They learn that to go faster just point the skis down the hill and enjoy the feeling of acceleration and that when they get 'there'( and at this point 'there' might just be the end of the arc) their speed will be slow enough that they will want to go faster. Because they are enjoying the going aspect of skiing they get comfortable with the speed and are soon skiing all over the beginner hill going where they want to while enjoying the thrill of controlled speed.

 

I know that this probably sounds a little vague but I have never really tried to put what I do into words before. I'll probably be able to clear things up as I write and think more about it but the above is one of the first things that came to me. Please ask questions as that will help me direct my thinking and writing about this

 

And yes, i do think of it as teaching the student to ski not teaching them to make a wedge turn. Teach them to ski and the wedge stance is just a step along the way to higher level skiing. Teach them to make a wedge turn and the outcome can be a dead end or a 'hitch in the get along' toward better skiing.

 

Next time I'll be a little more specific as to just what I teach them to 'go there'

 

fom

post #131 of 133
post #132 of 133

Sorry for the lag time on this... got some video shot on Friday, but with the holiday and the giant blizzard of death, it took a few days to get it from my girlfriend's phone onto Youtube.

 

Weight shift:

 

 

Upper body bend:

 

 

Leg Rotation:

 

 

Flatten the inside ski:

 

 

Blend of skills (uh, I hope) :

 

 

Edit: Forgot to mention I'm getting on a plane shortly to leave the country!  So if you have comments, I probably won't see them until the 10th or so.  Happy New Year!

post #133 of 133

Great stuff Matthias99. Well done. See guys. Its not that hard. Filming and posting here. Even with a blizzard of death on your hands. None of you other guys are devoted like Mat is. No excuses. This is an extremly good way of taking a closer look at what is happening. Now we have tasks that many can do and then we can compare them to each other. And have a real discussion based on facts.

 

Im not going to make any deep analysis right now because I need to go to sleep but I think that the videos clearly show that its pritty hard to isolate movements.

 

Great work Mat icon14.gificon14.gificon14.gificon14.gificon14.gif

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