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Wax prices and wax durability questions - Page 2

post #31 of 42

Natrat, any inconsiderate and ignorant newbie such as yourself who, with obviously limited attention span, reading and comprehension skills, thinks there's serious scratch selling hydrocarbon wax to people who get discounts and others on this forum is far from ‘getting it’.

I and others, pay a considerable amount for your 'BS and free speech' on this forum. There are also many others putting tons of free time keeping this place hopping. It may be free to you, but it isn't free. You can show your appreciation by becoming a supporter to help keep the lights on.

 

The thread is about durability versus relative cost and the information provided is to help people without their head up their ass to help make value judgments and offer up real and practical choices and good tips, based on lots of experience and a lot longer view on things than yours, including keeping a family of skis in 3 disciplines waxed and deep experience in other fields using tools and various other materials.

 

You are also telling people to wax every two days and to buy $80 worth of wax. Go for it dude. waste your time, material and money and tell all your bros that you have it dialed.

 

Regarding the F4, Marc sells Swix, thus his post and providing his link. This is also getting old where I spend the time providing info and Marc comes along with a 'buy my stuff here' note and that's it. I don't blame him and am considering the same thing since I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. I could spend my time in many other places (including being on skis) than eating shit and talking about THE CHEAPEST PART OF SKIING!

 

Venting aside, for those who share the passion/addiction and are also real skiers or wish to be:

 

We sell limited Swix products and could sell F4 because the market knows it from brand identity stand point and it does work well, that's why people like Natrat know about it (if I was smart, I'd carry it instead of products I believe in even though the market does not know about them on any reliable, money making scale), not based on comparing it to other options and overall value.....including durability. Personally, I'd rather spend less time and waste less material while waxing and overall cost by using a higher grade quality wax, that does glide well over a broader range of temperatures and conditions. Same for quality tools and other products. Over time, it is a better value to buy quality 'whatever' products, versus going cheap and having to buy more again.

 

I'm on skis a lot. Here, in the San Juans of SW Colorado, we can easily get a 30 degree temperature range and a high variety of snow conditions in a given day, depending on elevation and aspect. I ski out the back door at 7600 feet and up to over 13,000 in various locations. The sun can be super intense on one side and it'll be cold and dark in the trees on another. In 4,000 feet, you can literally go through a climatic change. Dry powder up high on a northern aspect to spring skiing down low, facing south, which is crust or ice on the morning. Couple that with long traverses requiring decent glide to get around. For anyone seriously interested in learning about glide, try skate skiing. Without much gravity negating finer differences, you can increase your sensitivity to minor differences.

 

I also believe that if you go cheap on wax, you will tend to waste more than if you spend a little more. Depending on your consumption level, it is very possible you could get over a season of use out of 250 grams of the RB Medium (read: 20 something dollars rolleyes.gif). Again, in the interest of reducing time, resources and expense, experiment with whatever wax you have and really find out how long you truly need to go between waxings, depending on snow abrasiveness, duration and other factors. Compare in hours, not days.

 

From our Tuning Tips here is the video I put together on methods to minimize waxing time, material use and mess while maximizing the performance of your expensive skis:

 

 

Enjoy your day. Thanks for the support Finndog, Tromano, etc and let it go. We need more snow and focus on things that are important. I will be available as always via phone, emails, Facebook and our tuning tips. PMs are harder to respond to if I'm out 'product testing'. Direct email or calling is best. Sometimes I remember to call forward to my cell which has improving coverage is some pretty awesome places where I hope to be more often......like today. drool.gif

 

Edit: Ramjet, I agree that aggressive structuring is the primary concern with spring/wet snows. Using a durable wax though is also a good idea since you can go from abrasive crust and coral reef to corn to slush in a spring day. A little LF does bump the glide. I like a medium vs a warm wax due to higher durability and the LF is more hydrophobic and provides increased glide.

 

I'm not sure that there is a downside to generally using LF in a universal or performance wax relative to glide. But there is an upside with increased glide in higher humidity and moisture content.


Edited by Alpinord - 12/10/10 at 9:55am
post #32 of 42

 

I appreciate you too Terry.
 
Your customer service is top notch. I wouldn't but from anyone else unless you could not get me the product.
 
 
The problem with Rat's post is this.
He has 20ish posts.
You carry no weight, and posting off sponsor links is Trolling. It's not proper forum etiquette. 
Terry and other sponsors spend a lot of money so we can visit this site. Terry I know spends lots of time with customers and people on this site. I think I sent 15 emails with him before making a purchase. 
 
Somebody with a highly respected opinion on the sight who's been here a long time posting an off sponsor link is not going to be treated the same as a new guy. It's just how forum etiquette works.
 
Your just asking for a bashing on a tight knit sight like this by posting a competitors link, specially when this thread has nothing to do with buying wax, but wax durability and longevity.
post #33 of 42
I'm confused.

The link provided further up the thread is for Swix LF4,
500

which is extremely durable in its own right, but LF4 is a completely different product (and is much, much more durable, and also much more difficult to work with) than just plain F4?

500


The distinction is (IMO _very_) important.
post #34 of 42

Also, blindly 'apply every 2 days' recommendation does not imply durability nor value without quantifying snow abrasiveness and other variables.

post #35 of 42

true but it will get you to use an aweful lot of it! :)

post #36 of 42

I think the natrat was talking about F4, (which is the same stuff you can paste on). I used that and LF4 as well swix univesal for years. For midatlantic abrasive manmade  F4 liquid would last like 1/2 day (or less), the LF4 would last for a weekend, and the universal cold would last like 1 day.  

 

In UT it all lasts about twice as long.

post #37 of 42


-First of all Terry I don't sell the exact F4 product in question, I sell a cork-in version (but I am considering the larger bars). 

-Second, I have had plenty of people call me looking for that wax product and telling me its their favorite, and it looks like a good product, so I don't mind saying that it is worth considering, and that was my intent. 

-Third, I have recommended you to plenty of forum people and even non-forum people if I didn't sell the product they were asking for and/or thought you could help them with a technical question.  I did it yesterday actually to a forum person that called me.  My father had a small business and there was another small business of his type in town.  He always sent customers there rather than some bigger stores if he couldn't help them.  I guess I learned from my Dad that he respected the guy even though they competed, and I try to act the same way.

 

I give you lots of credit for your very informative and lengthy posts.  No way I could do what you do.  Mine tend to be short, but I think I have contributed more than "buy my stuff here".  Have I done that?  Sure, but if I do I also try to add something of value when appropriate, and pointing out sale specials is still a benefit to the forum members. 

 

Last, I presume that I, as a sponsor, pay the same price tag as you for being here, and while I'd be stupid not to point out the things I sell, I have always tried to be fair.  We share the forum support and sell different brands for the most part, so I don't see the point in going after each other.  Like I said, I want business, but if I can't get it, I have pushed people your way.

 

Finndog makes the best point.  But it doesn't bother me if other sites are cited.  Everybody knows how to price compare online and usually the bigger outfits don't have the better price consistently, and even if they are the same, we offer a forum discount.  So most people will buy from the forum sponsors anyway based on price alone.  If they don't it's their loss monetarily as well as from the standpoint of losing out on the personal relationship the forum sponsors offer.  Frankly, I don't want the customers that don't value what the sponsors offer; I want the kind of customer that values this community, and that's why I support it.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post


Regarding the F4, Marc sells Swix, thus his post and providing his link. This is also getting old where I spend the time providing info and Marc comes along with a 'buy my stuff here' note and that's it. I don't blame him and am considering the same thing since I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. I could spend my time in many other places (including being on skis) than eating shit and talking about THE CHEAPEST PART OF SKIING!

post #38 of 42

Getting back to the topic -- I would advise against the low cost universals in one particular scenario.  If you ski on any manmade snow, which is a big factor in my area, I found that they just cannot hold up.  I ended up waxing all the time when using something like a Toko or Swix universal.  I gradually transitioned to Maplus Race-Bace Medium (purple stuff) and couldn't be happier.  Not only does it seem to perform well across a good temperature range, but it holds up against manmade snow extremely well.  Whatever the cost difference, it's definitely being offset by a long shot when you consider I am waxing less (time) and using less wax (material).  

 

I should note that the choice of brands in my discussion is incidental -- don't mean to rail against Toko or Swix, for instance.  In fact, each of those brands has higher quality waxes that are better choices than the low cost universals.  So the bottom line advice is to spend your $$ wisely and buy a good wax from whatever favorite brand/vendor you like.  I happen to like buying from Terry since he has always been forthcoming and enthusiastic with advice, we have developed a good relationship over the years, prices are more than fair with the supporter discount, and he somehow seems to defy the laws of physics in shipping packages from CO to VA quickly.

post #39 of 42

Marc,

My comment out of building frustration (and over protectiveness) was not inaccurate, FWIW. I do also recommend you before others if we do not have what they are looking for. And like you, we look to provide the best overall value for a customer's needs and price point. Check out Marc's tuning tips for good info, BTW.

 

What 'universal' type wax(es) that you make would be a good, durable option and under which conditions you've tried?

 

Since (who really knows) less than 5% of the ski and snowboard market actually takes care of their gear. Most are not racers and don't need race wax, but quality supplies and tools to...and knowledge/confidence.....to easily and conveniently take care of their expensive gear. Many (whose rationale escapes me) simply don't understand maintenance and will simply spend more money on gear they don't need because they did not care for their gear or maximize their gear's performance. Purely wasteful on so many levels, it's mind boggling. There's huge growth potential versus sniping for small pieces of pie. Turning 5% to 6% is substantial growth for everyone's benefit. A lot out of intimidation and paralysis, our focus has been to show others that it is really pretty easy and not up there with fine craftsmanship like others tend to make it.

 

If we all focus on increasing the knowledge base and giving potential customers confidence to start somewhere, pick up a tool and learn over time is a win for all. Petty sniping is a fail. But for the participants, lurkers and leeches, there is a lot of time and financial investment on the line.....and real passion.

 

Back to topic, in summary:

 

CHEAP = MORE TIME = MORE EFFORT = MORE MATERIAL = MORE PURCHASES = MORE COST OVER TIME

 

It also leaves more wax on the slopes and environment. Marc can speak to inert versus not and affects. Less maintenance equals more skis at ski swaps or in the land fills and far larger gear expense than the cost of tools and supplies.

 

The fact that a huge number of people don't get this is why Walmart and others keep growing and small businesses fold. People simply look at short term dollar savings versus the value of where they got the information and understanding the longer view and end game.

 

Quote:
Frankly, I don't want the customers that don't value what the sponsors offer; I want the kind of customer that values this community, and that's why I support it.

 

Same here and if it is only about perceived price and not real overall value and quality, please, someone clue me in. I have many other things that I could and should be doing than providing 'free advise' for the 'entitled' based on lots of experience and extensive and varied skill set. I've connected with a ton of great folks here and hope to maintain the mojo to connect with more via keyboard and on snow.


Edited by Alpinord - 12/13/10 at 6:28pm
post #40 of 42

Though I make and sell one, IMO there is no true "universal" wax.  There are some that do well over a broad range and perform adequately outside of that range.  The best performance comes from matching wax with a narrow range to the conditions.  But not everyone wants or needs that, so "universal" is perfect for them.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post

Marc,

 

What 'universal' type wax(es) that you make would be a good, durable option and under which conditions you've tried?

 

post #41 of 42
Dr.D, some time ago I tried a small block of your universal (white) low-fluoro using methods (crayon & cork) and in conditions (early season crust in Tahoe, late May on Hood) that I did not think did that wax justice, which is why I did not post a review.

Have you changed your formulation for this product since January 2008
(i.e since the WNA Super Storm, which is when I skied it ?
Edited by comprex - 12/11/10 at 10:25am
post #42 of 42

Very informative thread! You guys just saved me a bunch of time and $$ as I was going to order whatever overpriced wax REI had on the shelves.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by natrat View Post

i thought it was a free speech zone sorry,,

LOLZ.
 

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