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Can't get myself out of the backseat - Page 2

post #31 of 57

In order to boost skier days many mountains have packages that combine equipment rental with group lessons; the result is substantial savings.  Check to see if your mountain has this.  And as for lessons in general, I've been skiing for 40 years, (40+ days a year) and last year took a couple of lessons.  Can't wait to take a couple more this year.

post #32 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCJIM View Post




True!  When I was learning and feeling comfortable to do blues, I returned to the greens to focus on specific skills that were not working out very well on the blues.  Then I worked those skills and practiced them so much on the greens that I could take them with me to the double blacks.  You're going to find that skiing any slope is using the same skills.  

 

Yes, taking breaks is good.  I'd say to carry a granola bar or two and a very small bottle of a sport drink or water.  Staying hydrated and eating keeps you mentally and physically alert, rather than having you exhaust yourself in a few hours.  Also do stretching, a touching of the toes before and after.  I learned to do that before and after running and it's amazing how it prevents leg fatigue.

 

Also, the better you get at skiing the LESS effort skiing is.  


Stretching is something that really helped me ski better last year.

I look like a dof, cause I go up the lift and stretch at the top, but oh well. 

 

Make sure you move around before you stretch and get your muscles warm, Stretching cold muscles doesn't help you.

Do some jumping jacks if you have to. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete No. Idaho View Post

Wow, we have basically a new skier asking some basic questions and Bears post FIS racing pro pictures to illustrate a point. How cool and USELESS.

 

Good Advice.   Take a lesson or two or three, find a good instructor, ask around about the instructors.  Time on the snow. 



I can agree with this. 

post #33 of 57

Also, I found that reading books on skiing technique and watching instructional DVDs were extremely helpful.  If you read about how to do something and watch an instructor on a DVD you can then go and practice it on your own!  Yes, of course, every beginner skier needs an instructor (a human), but you'd be very, very surprised at what you can learn from reading a book, watching a DVD and taking that information to the greens and then practicing what you've read about.

 

Yes, it's better to have a ski instructor watching you and giving you pointers, but you can also tell you're doing it right when you're taking yourself to the black diamond trails and skiing them with confidence.  I didn't need a ski instructor to tell me I was able to make a very quick and sharp short turn.  I didn't need a ski instructor on the hill to tell me I am able to stop very quickly.

 

I would recommend to any beginner to get yourself a lesson or two or three.  But in addition and sometimes in lieu of that I'd read, read, read and take the skills with you to the hill.  And practice, practice, practice!

 

post #34 of 57

Sorry Jim....  You are incorrect and Bushwacker is right on about the tip lead. 

 

For the OP...  One good way of getting forward is to straighten your legs at the knee and close your ankle joint.  Many people like to think of lifting the toe inside the boot rather than pressing the shins forward.  The net effect is the same.  The CM moves forward and shin pressure increases.  This works in parallel and (gasp) wedge turns.  One commonly used visual is that you want to F**k your turns, not S**t them.  Bending the knees causes the latter in most people.  Also when people are told to "lean forward" they do this by bending forward at the waist.  This causes the butt to move back and.... You S**t your turn
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCJIM View Post

icon13.gif

post #35 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post
 One commonly used visual is that you want to F**k your turns, not S**t them. 

Absolutely love this metaphor, just now have to be very careful who I use it with!   I do at times feel like the former is happening, that pumping the hips forward and back.

post #36 of 57

Thinking about this this way. I'ma have to see an example again, but I'm pretty damn near guessing I do the latter.

post #37 of 57

Perp

 

First, do get your equipment checked.  Try this---

1--look at this article on correct boot sizing:

http://www.epicski.com/wiki/boot-fitting-which-boot-will-work-for-me

 

2--Post your findings from that fit test and, if you can, post a photo of a side shot of you skiing in your boots*, on the "Ask the Boot Guys" forum

http://www.epicski.com/forum/list/73

It is possible that even if your boots are the correct fit for you, they may have the wrong geometry for you.  The Boot Guys will know.

 

If the boots are OK, try this...buckle your boots with the foot buckles moderately tight so you don't have side-to-side movement.  Buckle the lower cuff buckle as loose as it'll stay on for more cuff flex, and buckle the top cuff buckle and pull the power strap tight so the boot cuff is firmly around your calf.  On comfortable slopes be sure you are always balanced on the balls of your feet.  At the beginning of each turn strongly pull both feet backwards.  The steeper the slope and the tighter the turn, the more strongly you need to pull your feet back.  Pull your inside foot back strongly throughout the entire turn.  You will see others discount this movement, but try it and let us know how well it works for you.  Hold your hands in the natural balancing position you'd have them in walking across an icy surface...slightly forward and slightly out to the sides, nothing contrived (hand position can't make things go right but can sure make things go wrong).  Every time you get back on your heels, stop.  Recenter yourself back to the balls of your feet, and ski away.  The two-foot pullback is the strongest recentering movement you can have while moving.

 

On steep slopes you must get the fronts of your skis engaged in the snow and pulling you around in an arc before your skis point down the fall line.  In order to accomplish this you gott'a get your weight on the fronts at the beginning of the turn.  The steeper the pitch, the stronger effort you need to get your body forward/feet back at the start.  If you feel like you're diving off a cliff head first, that is exactly right.  If you don't feel this way, you won't do well on steep stuff.  Lots more things can be wrong, such as twisting your body into the turn (you're doomed), heavy weight on the inside (uphill in the last half of the turn) foot (doomed again), leaning back toward the hill instead of leaning out into the abyss, etc.  Post a video.

 

*If your heels aren't behind your butt, you are back, regardless of how you think you're standing.

post #38 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete No. Idaho View Post

 

Good Advice.   Take a lesson or two or three, find a good instructor, ask around about the instructors.  Time on the snow. 


As someone who's on the learning path and a lot closer to beginner than expert I humbly yet heartily second all that!  ;-)

 

I would also like to add something you might find useful...

 

I recently picked up a used pair of 2008 Rossignol B74 skis with Axium demo bindings, the kind that allow the heel and toe pieces to be adjusted independently. I got them very cheap off eBay, (which can be a crap shoot), but was pleasantly surprised to find they were in very good shape. Took them into a local shop to have the bindings checked and also tuned (edges, minor ptex and wax). I have something fatter for powder(y) days, but am doing a lot of groomer skiing, working on turns, and will be getting into more bumps soon, and was hoping this would be my basic go-to ski for a while.

 

I got them out for a few runs yesterday afternoon and for the life of me could not make them turn worth a crap, and was constantly in the backseat. I tried a variety of tactics to get balanced, maybe stay a little forward, and nothing worked. Went home pretty disappointed, but I had the demo bindings to play with, so last night I moved the toe piece forward from the 315-327 setting to 328-340, and moved the heel piece the same amount. Checked to make sure forward pressure was good.

 

Today I got out late for a few runs, and what a difference! After one run I adjusted, and was able to ski tall and centered, relaxed, but also aggressively when I wanted to. I could feel the skis solidly under my feet, and boy were they responsive! It was like going from driving a garbage barge to a speedboat. That may sound like hyperbole, but it's not; they were that snappy!

 

So, there are without a doubt a lot of variables in the overall equation, but sometimes it *can* be the equipment.

post #39 of 57

 

 

Quote:
but I had the demo bindings to play with, so last night I moved the toe piece forward from the 315-327 setting to 328-340, and moved the heel piece the same amount.

 

Is that wise???????

 

I'm wondering on whose authority and/or expertise did you do this?  You say you're a beginner, right?

 

I've been skiing for 9 winters now and I don't think I'd ever play with the bindings.  As a matter of fact, I"m taking my skis with boots in tomorrow for a yearly check-up, tuning, waxing.  

 

Sorry if I sound combative, but it just seems reckless to mess around or experiment with the bindings.  

post #40 of 57



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by perpdartNY View Post

..............................., I found myself in the backseat. I don't know the size of my boots have anything to do with this or my posture, but I just couldn't get myself to feel the front of my boots. I think the boots fit snug enough, but I'm not sure. My feet aren't swimming around, but my toes aren't exactly touching the front of the boots. ......................


Chances are that you are in the backseat. Almost everyone is. Oddly enough though, you might be more likely to actually feel your toes hitting the front of a loose fitting pair of boots if you are . Someone suggested the possibility that you ended up with your skis facing uphill because you employed upper body rotation. This is a likely.explanation. Throwing your body around is a frequent response to an uncomfortable situation in which a skier finds himself intimidated by the steepness of the slope. The result is to engage the fronts of the skis which will bring you around in an unbalanced stance.

 

Taking a lesson would be very good advice. You will regain your comfort level and have a chance to have any functional stance and movement issues corrected. Having your boot fit corrected by a skilled fitter would also be excellent advice. Very few beginning level skiers are in a position to evaluate ski boot fit and their feedback is quite important to shop employees as well so it is not unlikely your boots may be too large.

 

I would take myself back to a gentler slope where the intimidation factor is not present and I could feel comfortable. I would practice turning my skis at relatively slow speeds, working on my fore and aft balance. Your knees should be slightly flexed and your ankles flexing as well. Experiment with flexing both simultaneously with a focus on getting your ankle to flex. Practice bouncing up and down in this way if it helps to loosen you up. A good rule of thumb is that if you are back then this can be corrected by moving your feet back beneath your body.  You will feel your ankles flex when you do this and some pressure from the boot tongues against your lower leg. The objective is to be in a balanced position and not to be balancing by leaning back against the boot spoilers. You should feel that your skis turn much more easily when you find a balanced position. Most of the time that will be a position in which you may feel your feet are slightly behind you.

 

A skier at your level should not be overly concerned with carving. There is much to develop with regard to basic skills and movements that will set you up for steady progress and satisfaction.

post #41 of 57


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCJIM View Post

 

 

Quote:
but I had the demo bindings to play with, so last night I moved the toe piece forward from the 315-327 setting to 328-340, and moved the heel piece the same amount.

 

Is that wise???????

 

I'm wondering on whose authority and/or expertise did you do this?  You say you're a beginner, right?

 

I've been skiing for 9 winters now and I don't think I'd ever play with the bindings.  As a matter of fact, I"m taking my skis with boots in tomorrow for a yearly check-up, tuning, waxing.  

 

Sorry if I sound combative, but it just seems reckless to mess around or experiment with the bindings.  

 

just because he is beginner skier doesnt mean he cant read a tech manual.
 

post #42 of 57

Yes, good point.  No argument on that.  But he didn't say he read a tech manual.  He just said he was playing with the settings and since he was a beginner it kind of worried me for his safety.  Those settings are no joke.  As you already know--but we don't yet fully know if he does. 

 

post #43 of 57

He said that he checked his forward pressure and verified that it was correct.  Everyone has the "authority" to adjust their own equipment.  I had thought about doing the same thing myself, but have been too busy/lazy to actually play around with it.  

post #44 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

He said that he checked his forward pressure and verified that it was correct.  Everyone has the "authority" to adjust their own equipment.  I had thought about doing the same thing myself, but have been too busy/lazy to actually play around with it.  

 

Yes he did.  He, who readily admits to being "someone who's on the learning path and a lot closer to beginner than expert ."    I don't know him.  Neither do you.  I do know many beginners know so little.   I'm not automatically going to assume that a beginner knows enough so he's capable of playing around with binding settings.  

 

Bindings settings are serious business.  Those settings are based on many factors; I'd be surprised that a beginner would know them.  He hasn't skied enough to know.

 

Too tight and a beginner skier can break his legs in a fall, as the bindings won't release.  Too loose and a beginner skier will fly out of his binders hitting a tiny bump.

 

Maybe the individual somehow knows enough about bindings even if he's a beginner.  But it's dangerous to put info like that online where beginners are reading.  I wonder how many will feel free to go home and "play" with their binding settings.  eek.gif

 

post #45 of 57


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCJIM View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

He said that he checked his forward pressure and verified that it was correct.  Everyone has the "authority" to adjust their own equipment.  I had thought about doing the same thing myself, but have been too busy/lazy to actually play around with it.  

 

Yes he did.  He, who readily admits to being "someone who's on the learning path and a lot closer to beginner than expert ."    I don't know him.  Neither do you.  I do know many beginners know so little.   I'm not automatically going to assume that a beginner knows enough so he's capable of playing around with binding settings.  

 

Bindings settings are serious business.  Those settings are based on many factors; I'd be surprised that a beginner would know them.  He hasn't skied enough to know.

 

Too tight and a beginner skier can break his legs in a fall, as the bindings won't release.  Too loose and a beginner skier will fly out of his binders hitting a tiny bump.

 

Maybe the individual somehow knows enough about bindings even if he's a beginner.  But it's dangerous to put info like that online where beginners are reading.  I wonder how many will feel free to go home and "play" with their binding settings.  eek.gif

 


 

their are certified binding techs in the country who have never skied a day in their life. Who would play with their binding setting if they didnt have clue? this guys sounded like he was changing his fore and aft position on his skis by sliding the demo plate. It realy isnt rocket science and all the info to set your din at chart level with the right forward pressure is available online.

 

 

post #46 of 57

You may be 100% correct.  What you say sounds okay to me.  And to you.  But as another topic on these boards brought out, many beginners don't even have the sense how to dress for winter.  I'm not sure it's in their best interests to think playing with binding settings is easy or the answer to their lack of skill.   Do you really have to ask: "Who would play with their binding setting if they didnt have clue?"  We're dealing with the general public, who can't even dress for the cold.

 

On the other hand, this is the internet.  Caveat Emptor.  Have you ever seen Yahoo Answers when looking something up on a Google search?  90% of the time the "answer" is what some idiot in cyberspace decided to write.  It's so bad that I refuse now to even look at Yahoo answers. 

 

So I guess my point is, I'm making way too much out of this.   People have to use common sense and if they don't, well, that's their problem.  

post #47 of 57

Moving bindings forward is something that will make it easier to bring pressure to bear on the front edges.  Binding position is a topic that has been debated on this and other forums quite frequently.  Look up campbell balancer

 

Is it a good idea?  That depends.  I'm usually happy with the factory point, but a little (say up to about an inch) forward is ok in my book.  Moving them a lot forward to compensate for poor technique, not so good.

 

As to a beginning skiers ability to adjust bindings, I see no problem with that, so long as they are not a mechanical klutz.  Most people know if they are mechanically inept, and wouldn't try adjusting bindings if they were.  Adjusting DIN is pretty straight forward.  Adjusting forward pressure also easy if you have the required info for your particular binding (screw flush with housing, indicator within range, etc.). Adjusting toe wings, not too hard.  The few bindings I've played with adjusting position on tracks are a tiny bit more complicated, but not brain surgery; the danger is the position might require some tab be fully locked into a slot in a ladder track and it be possible for binding to be not locked in place, but appear to be.

 

post #48 of 57

jc-ski.  Good for you.  Sounds like you are going to be one helluva a skier sometime not too far in the future.  Recognize and appreciate your brain power and the fact that you have ignored a few doom sayers here that think your life is coming to an end if you change from the norm.  I have done exactly the same thing and that was about 5 years ago on my Afterburners and I am still alive.  Go figure.    

post #49 of 57

Sure, have fun and experiment with all different binding settings.  It's fun to wipe out and not get released from your bindings.  biggrin.gif

 

All part of the fun of skiing.    You might want to tie your legs together and soar down a double black.  Try it blindfolded.  Now that makes for a fun time!

 

Enjoy.  Let me know when you take up skydiving.  We can experiment with your rip cord.  Good times!

post #50 of 57

Regarding the binding adjustment - I tend to err on the side of caution, which is why I took the bindings in to a shop to be checked, mainly for mount integrity and proper release, which I am not set up to do. DIN and forward pressure can be set if you have the right info - which is generally available on the Internet (manufacturer settings documents, usually in PDF format).

 

Yes, my skiing is the main thing that needs to improve, but I know from working with a well respected boot fitter that the combination of my build and current boots leave me right on the threshold of being too upright, even after he did what he could to align things optimally. So after struggling with back seat issues a little experiment changing the effective mount point of the bindings seemed in order, and the initial results seem to indicate it was a good move. (More data needed, will be noted over time.) It was not a huge move - ~13mm - about 1/2 inch.

 

Pete et al., thanks for the support.

 

Now it's time to ... shut up and ski!  ;-)

post #51 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post

Regarding the binding adjustment - I tend to err on the side of caution, which is why I took the bindings in to a shop to be checked,

 

Pete et al., thanks for the support.

 

Now it's time to ... shut up and ski!  ;-)



 

 

Excellent.   "Shut up and ski".   Think I've said that once or twice over the years.   Have a great winter jc.

post #52 of 57
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post

Perp

 

First, do get your equipment checked.  Try this---

1--look at this article on correct boot sizing:

http://www.epicski.com/wiki/boot-fitting-which-boot-will-work-for-me

 

2--Post your findings from that fit test and, if you can, post a photo of a side shot of you skiing in your boots*, on the "Ask the Boot Guys" forum

http://www.epicski.com/forum/list/73

It is possible that even if your boots are the correct fit for you, they may have the wrong geometry for you.  The Boot Guys will know.

 

If the boots are OK, try this...buckle your boots with the foot buckles moderately tight so you don't have side-to-side movement.  Buckle the lower cuff buckle as loose as it'll stay on for more cuff flex, and buckle the top cuff buckle and pull the power strap tight so the boot cuff is firmly around your calf.  On comfortable slopes be sure you are always balanced on the balls of your feet.  At the beginning of each turn strongly pull both feet backwards.  The steeper the slope and the tighter the turn, the more strongly you need to pull your feet back.  Pull your inside foot back strongly throughout the entire turn.  You will see others discount this movement, but try it and let us know how well it works for you.  Hold your hands in the natural balancing position you'd have them in walking across an icy surface...slightly forward and slightly out to the sides, nothing contrived (hand position can't make things go right but can sure make things go wrong).  Every time you get back on your heels, stop.  Recenter yourself back to the balls of your feet, and ski away.  The two-foot pullback is the strongest recentering movement you can have while moving.

 

On steep slopes you must get the fronts of your skis engaged in the snow and pulling you around in an arc before your skis point down the fall line.  In order to accomplish this you gott'a get your weight on the fronts at the beginning of the turn.  The steeper the pitch, the stronger effort you need to get your body forward/feet back at the start.  If you feel like you're diving off a cliff head first, that is exactly right.  If you don't feel this way, you won't do well on steep stuff.  Lots more things can be wrong, such as twisting your body into the turn (you're doomed), heavy weight on the inside (uphill in the last half of the turn) foot (doomed again), leaning back toward the hill instead of leaning out into the abyss, etc.  Post a video.

 

*If your heels aren't behind your butt, you are back, regardless of how you think you're standing.


Thank you for all the advice everyone! I will be going skiing twice this week. :D I'm going to take all the advice learned from this thread and bring them with me to the mountain - and that includes getting a group lesson :)

 

SoftSnowGuy- I'm kind of confused by what you're trying to say. By being balanced at the ball of your feet do you mean your ankle joint? By balancing do you mean flex it so my toes are sort of facing up, or keep my feet flat? And what do you mean by comfortable slopes? Does that apply for steeper slopes as well? Lastly, what do you mean by pulling my feet back? As someone said earlier, putting the skis back? Or my feet inside the boots? Sorry for my stupid questions. Your help is appreciated.

post #53 of 57
Thread Starter 

Ended with a great day yesterday! Stayed on green runs. I felt skis pulling me in when I initiated a turn which made me feel like I was in control, especially on the bunny slope.. So once I felt myself being pulled in I applied pressure, stood up and got ready to be pulled in to the next turn, and repeat. :D Didn't perfect it, but will work on it. Is that how it's supposed to be?

 

A problem was that I couldn't focus on keeping the inside skis from advancing from the outside skis. I've tried it, but it felt weird. Or sometimes I just couldn't tell which was my inside skis and outside skis. For the most part though I think my skis were almost not too far away from each other, didn't pay much attention to that. Also, I try to focus on looking down on my skis, and sometimes I can get them to be a few inches away from each other, but other times they are quite far away apart, or I feel they are uneven. Any help with this?


I appreciate all the advice. They really helped! 

post #54 of 57

Your inside ski is your right ski when turning right and your left ski when turning left. please don't be looking down at your skis look what you are coming upon while skiing, people, trees, lift towers etc you will be much safer for it. If you feel your skis knocking together than you know they are too close. hip width apart is a pretty good distance to work towards, feel what it is like to have the skis at that distance while going straight on very gentle / flat terrain. take that feeling and work it into turns, feel your shins engaged in the front area of your boots more than the calf area and that will tighten up your stance and keep your skis in a better/ stronger orientation for you. I like your analogy of the skis pulling you in.    

 

 

                 " So once I felt myself being pulled in I applied pressure, stood up and got ready to be pulled in to the next turn"  instead of standing up try changing your edges say from 2 lefts in a left turn to 2 rights to go right, you will extend somewhat but more to go from 1 set of edges (lefts) to another set (right) some call this move a diagonal cross over. When you have started laying down clean crisp tracks on the bunny slope then progress to a little steeper green slope and try it there.

post #55 of 57

One more data point...

 

I have a pair of Line Prophet 100's on which I had Railflex demo (RFD 14) bindings mounted on the center line. Mostly I've been skiing them in mixed/soft conditions. They've generally felt pretty snappy, and have been good to me when I've run into several inches of fresh or cut up snow. (Stable and good float.) The only downside has been I've often felt it hard to find that solid, centered feeling on the ski, and often during turns feel myself getting into the back seat.

 

So, today I used the Railflex capability to move the bindings forward 1.5cm. Loosened a screw, slid bindings on rail, tightened screw. Got out for a few runs late afternoon, and again had a very positive experience. Skis felt much more solid, more under me, right under my boots, and I felt like I was able to initiate and control turns much better. The whole thing just felt much tighter and connected (to me, the skier), more balanced.

 

It amazes me .6" can make that much of a difference! I'm curious now if I leave the bindings there how things will feel next time I hit some deeper (>=8") stuff.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete No. Idaho View Post

"Shut up and ski".   Think I've said that once or twice over the years.


Pete, in the interest of full disclosure I got that ("shut up and ski", which apparently is a common Mt. Bachelor saying) and "sometimes you can blame it on the gear" from Mark Elling's "The All Mountain Skier". I've almost worn my copy out over the last year. I read through it constantly, and find it to be a fantastic resource!

post #56 of 57
Thread Starter 

the last time i went, i asked one of the workers at the rental shop to adjust my binding settings a little forward so i could feel my front edges. that may have done the trick for me. :)

 

ordered yourskicoach first two DVDs, and will be skiing tomorrow. unfortunately they aren't coming in time :(

post #57 of 57

Can you elaborate on "extend into the turn"?

 

Len

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