Can't get myself out of the backseat

Were you on rented gear?

I have read that initiating turns with your poles helps keep your weight forward.

It works for me, but it's a bit confusing if you don't do it. Especially when you try to run the pole over with the ski. That was fun (not)

Going fast sometimes intimidates me on turning.
You feel out of control even though your not, but you panic anyways and will throw your hips to turn and slow down.

Turning sharp quickly takes practice, and I've not 100% figured it out myself. 
If I go to fast, I tend to just stop now and re-think my strategy. (Be sure to stop off to the side)

As for the boot thing. I think that is one of my problems, but I am no expert. 

If your in the back of your skis while turning, the tails will wash out. 

I'd check the mount to centerline as well, if they are your ski's and the bindings are set back behind the center line, that can make for some fun. (sarcasm again)

Quote:

Originally Posted by perpdartNY 

First day skiing for the season yesterday at Whiteface. I've skied several times before, but this was the closest I've got to a "real" mountain. My last time skiing was last year at Windham where I skied quite comfortably on the greens. Yesterday I decided to do a few runs on the blues at Whiteface which didn't end up too well. Hurt a few muscles from falling. Anyway, hopefully you guys can give me some tips for next time to avoid any injuries.

 

The blues at Whiteface were quite steep. I couldn't control my speed. A good amount of the time I initiated a turn, I found myself in the backseat. I don't know the size of my boots have anything to do with this or my posture, but I just couldn't get myself to feel the front of my boots. I think the boots fit snug enough, but I'm not sure. My feet aren't swimming around, but my toes aren't exactly touching the front of the boots. There were a few times where I tried to get on the edge more so I could stop myself, but the front of my skis ended up facing upwards of the mountain, therefore facing backwards. I also found it much harder to make a turn on steep runs. I forced the skis to turn and they weren't carving, more like skidding stops after I forced them to turn.  

there are a bunch of things that could be happening but 1st start with having your boot fit checked to see if they will even work for you. A good ski/boot shop should be able to

do this. 2nd get your skis tuned up, you are skiing on the ice coast better at least have some edges. Now if your gear is in good shape you have to change some things.I'll only mention 1 thing you can try, there can be many things to work on but better to stick with one thing at a time. A ski turns from the front part of it, the shovel, you have to engage the shovel/tip to get the ski to turn, well properly anyway. The back seat that you are describing can be coming from lack of fore/aft balance , that sends your weight on to the tails thereby not engaging the tip/shovel properly and you get that runaway freight train feeling on skis.

Here is a visual to try and see, keep you nose in front of your knees and your knees over your toes.

Here is a feeling part to it, feel pressure on the shin of your legs against the front of the boots, if you start feeling more pressure on your calves, guess what? chances are your in the back seat. As you press your shins into the front of the boots you start to engage the tip/ shovel of the ski, that gets the ski turning.

You might try staying on some greens for a while longer until you feel comfortable with this and can ski faster on the greens and control your speed and direction easily. then move up to blues. p.s. Whiteface is a pretty steep mountain

Quote:

Originally Posted by perpdartNY 

First day skiing for the season yesterday at Whiteface. I've skied several times before, but this was the closest I've got to a "real" mountain. My last time skiing was last year at Windham where I skied quite comfortably on the greens. Yesterday I decided to do a few runs on the blues at Whiteface which didn't end up too well. Hurt a few muscles from falling. Anyway, hopefully you guys can give me some tips for next time to avoid any injuries.

 

The blues at Whiteface were quite steep. I couldn't control my speed. A good amount of the time I initiated a turn, I found myself in the backseat. I don't know the size of my boots have anything to do with this or my posture, but I just couldn't get myself to feel the front of my boots. I think the boots fit snug enough, but I'm not sure. My feet aren't swimming around, but my toes aren't exactly touching the front of the boots. There were a few times where I tried to get on the edge more so I could stop myself, but the front of my skis ended up facing upwards of the mountain, therefore facing backwards. I also found it much harder to make a turn on steep runs. I forced the skis to turn and they weren't carving, more like skidding stops after I forced them to turn.  

holy loaded post! and its full of tons of useless info. answer my questions so we can have more useful info.

if your own the boots take the liner out, put your toes in the front of your boot, and see how much space there is between your heel and your shell.

can you feel the front of your boot on greens?

were the hills steep enough to make you nervous?

did you ever learn to wedge turn?

do you know how to extend into the new turn?

Quote:

Originally Posted by perpdartNY 

First day skiing for the season yesterday at Whiteface. I've skied several times before, but this was the closest I've got to a "real" mountain. My last time skiing was last year at Windham where I skied quite comfortably on the greens. Yesterday I decided to do a few runs on the blues at Whiteface which didn't end up too well. Hurt a few muscles from falling. Anyway, hopefully you guys can give me some tips for next time to avoid any injuries.

 

The blues at Whiteface were quite steep. I couldn't control my speed. A good amount of the time I initiated a turn, I found myself in the backseat. I don't know the size of my boots have anything to do with this or my posture, but I just couldn't get myself to feel the front of my boots. I think the boots fit snug enough, but I'm not sure. My feet aren't swimming around, but my toes aren't exactly touching the front of the boots. There were a few times where I tried to get on the edge more so I could stop myself, but the front of my skis ended up facing upwards of the mountain, therefore facing backwards. I also found it much harder to make a turn on steep runs. I forced the skis to turn and they weren't carving, more like skidding stops after I forced them to turn.  

I couldn't control my speed.  So what you said is you can't turn well, can't or don't know how to slow down and/or check your speed,don't know how to use the terrain to control your speed.  I found myself in the backseat.   Could be mechanical bad technique but probably is because you are skiing terrain that is over your ability, as you stated The blue were quite steep.

There was a few times....but the front of my skis ended up facing upwards of the mountain (facing backwards).   Most likely you were intimidated by the steepness and rotated your upper body into the hill (leaning into the hill with your upper body-sort of holding on to the mt.).  Rotating your upper body is a no no in skiing and becomes more important the steeper the terrain and or the faster you go.

You forced the skis and they didn't carve they skidded.  You are not in the CARVING period of your personal skiing.  That will come later.

Obviously, You need a Lesson to learn why the above is important and how to do them.  Can't for sure tell you on the web without seeing you ski but take a lesson or 2 or 3 and you will start advancing.  There are some basic skiing techniques that you need to learn before you can reasonably advance.  Sure your boots probably aren't perfect and your skis may not be either but it is probably the motor that needs tuning first.

Keep the inside ski back.   This keeps your body weight evenly over the skis.  

Stand in your room with both feet perfectly straight and together.  Notice how easy you are in a position to fall backwards?  If somebody gently pushed you in the chest you'd fall back very easily.

Now stand with both feet straight but one is a few inches behind the other.  Notice how your weight is distributed now?  You're in a much stronger position to remain upright if somebody were to push you in the chest.

The same principle works in skiing.  If both of your feet are perfectly next to each other it's easy to fall in the backseat. 

Keep the inside ski back.  This helps you maintain the fore/aft balance.  If both feet and skis are aligned perfectly, your skis can run out ahead of you and put you in the backseat.  Even parallel skiing does not mean both skis are perfectly lined up together.   If you're turning right, your right ski and leg are pulled back a little.  If you're turning left, your left ski and leg are pulled back a little.

(*I'm not a ski instructor, but this was taught to me and it has kept me out of the backseat.  So I offer this info to you to try out for your own experimentation.  But I would always advise taking a lesson.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by perpdartNY 

 

NYCJIM - Are you saying that the inside skis should be behind the outside skis; the outside skis be ahead of the inside skis a bit?  

Yes, exactly!

From your description I have very serious doubts that your boots fit you correctly.  Did you go to a boot fitter to get them or just go into a store and find some that felt "comfortable?"  If you picked them out in a store, I can guarantee they are at least one size and likely 2 sizes to big and too wide.  Properly fitting boots can make a huge difference in your skiing.  I know you're been told this before.

Yeah it's the boots, it's the equipments problem. That's where the blame should be placed. You need new and better equipment, that will make you an expert skier.

I'm not saying new equipment wouldn't be better. Odds are the boots don't fit. We're talking about back seat, while skiing blue groomed. A good skier can carve turns down a blue groomer on one ski, with the boots undone, confidently. An expert can do it this comfortable on double black terrain with variable snow.

Just Practice. Get out there and ski.

-Use chairlift time to think about what your doing wrong, and how you're going to make the adjustment. Then practice implementing the new technique.

-Observe good skiers, and try and identify what it is they are doing different then you.

-Pay particular attention to how your edges are weighted.

-Practice going fast, and practice control. Skiing slow is often harder than skiing fast.

-There are a million more things to try, just get out there.

"Just ski down there, and jump off something for crying out loud!" -Shane

Quote:

Originally Posted by perpdartNY 

I will take lessons next time. I skipped out because they are expensive, especially private ones. I don't think I could get that much out of a group lesson. Thank you everyone for the advice and would appreciate more input.

This is a main topic in another thread that we have.

"I don't think they would help me any"

Being a newer skier, they WILL help you.

Do some research on your instructors first, talk to them before taking a lesson, even if it's a group lesson.

The instructor will have the knowledge to get you where you need to be. With your skill level, and don't take this poorly, almost any instructor at the hill should be able to help you in some form or fashion. Initiating turns properly, not throwing your weight and more. All basics. 

No poles make you sound scary. Even if you drag them behind you, they are really useful.

One of the drills I've used is to hold them out in front of me to keep my weight forward.

It took a while for me to consciously learn to lean forward and not turn my body or throw my hips.
Sounds like thats what your doing.

If your having problems feeling your ski's, then your boots probably do not fit either. There shouldn't be much wiggle room in there when they are strapped down. 
Thats why I asked if you were running rental equipment. 

I ski'd for 2 years on not properly fit boots. While it is possible to ski in them, I recognized that it was holding me back greatly and causing me many control problems. Which was probably part of leading to my injury that I gained my first year skiing. 
Boots make more of a difference than ski's if you ask me. Really makes me want to be a boot fitter.

I learned to ski on an old wore out pair of p30's. I know ski's don't make that big of difference, but the ski's were still Tuned Properly. 

What you are describing is caused by skiing terrain that is too steep for your skills.   I second what Pete said.  Take lessons.  Group lessons will be just fine.  You need to develop skills on gentle terrain first.  I strongly disagree that your inside ski should be behind your outside ski.  Holding the inside ski back from advancing ahead of the outside ski is true, but not having it behind the outside ski.  Honestly keeping both skis back is a good thing, as it is the other side of the coin from keeping yourself out of the backseat.  If your skis get out ahead of you your weight moves to your heels, and thus you are in the backseat.

However, you can't learn to ski from these types of comments.  You need to work with a coach/instructor who can guide you through a progression of movements that will help you to be balanced on your skis, and to know how to use your turns to control your speed.  It's very hard to develop skills on terrain that is over your head.  Stick to the greens for the most part.

Once you get some good understanding of what to do you can start experimenting with steeper pitches.

Take lessons - really. I tried for years to learn to ski from books, videos, epic, etc.  I did learn a lot, but without the base core skills none of these "tips" will do it for you.  

Good luck and have fun!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talyn 

It took a while for me to consciously learn to lean forward ...

Talyn makes some good points - but DON'T "lean forward."  There is a lot of bad advice to be had (don't take this personally Talyn, you're not alone in using that term.)  That's the risk of trying to learn on the internet - and by no means am I suggesting that my advice is necessarily going to be always correct, or even BushwackerinPA's advice - and he's a much more advanced skier and instructor then I am.

Leaning forward actually puts you in the backseat because as your head and shoulders go forward your butt goes back.

Always pressuring the fronts of your boots isn't necessarily the right thing to do either.

Skiing centered in your boots, and using the fronts of them judiciously is more accurate.

Keeping your center of mass forward is more accurate then "leaning."  don't lean.  Stand up straight, bend your knees, yadda yadda yadda.

None of us can teach you to ski in writing.

Forget everything I just said - and everything everyone else said on this thread.

Work with a good teacher.  They can look at you, decide what you need right at that point in time and focus on it.  If they try to teach you too much, too many things at once, find another one.

But again - group lessons with a good instructor can be extremely useful.  Even a mediocre instructor is better then trying to learn from this thread!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz 

Talyn makes some good points - but DON'T "lean forward."  There is a lot of bad advice to be had (don't take this personally Talyn, you're not alone in using that term.)  That's the risk of trying to learn on the internet - and by no means am I suggesting that my advice is necessarily going to be always correct, or even BushwackerinPA's advice - and he's a much more advanced skier and instructor then I am.

 

Leaning forward actually puts you in the backseat because as your head and shoulders go forward your butt goes back.

 

Always pressuring the fronts of your boots isn't necessarily the right thing to do either.

 

Skiing centered in your boots, and using the fronts of them judiciously is more accurate.

 

Keeping your center of mass forward is more accurate then "leaning."  don't lean.  Stand up straight, bend your knees, yadda yadda yadda.

 

None of us can teach you to ski in writing.

 

Forget everything I just said - and everything everyone else said on this thread.

 

Work with a good teacher.  They can look at you, decide what you need right at that point in time and focus on it.  If they try to teach you too much, too many things at once, find another one.

 

But again - group lessons with a good instructor can be extremely useful.  Even a mediocre instructor is better then trying to learn from this thread!

Hey! Thanks for correcting me. I should personally know better than to say "lean forward."
I know thats not correct, though I did try and do it that way. I didn't have the butt back problem though.

When an instructor says to feel the front of your boots with your shins, he doesn't mean lean forward. 

After I feel a few times with the lean forward problem, he realized that it was the wrong instruction, but I already had the shin part in place, so he gave me different instruction that balanced me out perfectly. 

Jazz makes great points to follow on this.

While I used to be so anti on all the comments "go get an instructor." 

my comments and talk in another thread have lead me to believe that is the correct thing to say 80% of the time.

The other 20% is for special cases where the guys here can help anyone. 

And... well, your not in that 20%.

Cheers. =)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talyn 

It took a while for me to consciously learn to lean forward ...

Talyn makes some good points - but DON'T "lean forward."  There is a lot of bad advice to be had (don't take this personally Talyn, you're not alone in using that term.)  That's the risk of trying to learn on the internet - and by no means am I suggesting that my advice is necessarily going to be always correct, or even BushwackerinPA's advice - and he's a much more advanced skier and instructor then I am.

 

Leaning forward actually puts you in the backseat because as your head and shoulders go forward your butt goes back.

 

Always pressuring the fronts of your boots isn't necessarily the right thing to do either.

 

Skiing centered in your boots, and using the fronts of them judiciously is more accurate.

 

Keeping your center of mass forward is more accurate then "leaning."  don't lean.  Stand up straight, bend your knees, yadda yadda yadda.

 

None of us can teach you to ski in writing.

 

Forget everything I just said - and everything everyone else said on this thread.

 

Work with a good teacher.  They can look at you, decide what you need right at that point in time and focus on it.  If they try to teach you too much, too many things at once, find another one.

 

But again - group lessons with a good instructor can be extremely useful.  Even a mediocre instructor is better then trying to learn from this thread!

Well SMJ I see a few things from this thread that he can learn.

1) get proper fitted and tuned equipment.

2) Stay on easier terrain, no more blues for a while.

3) Focus on keeping up with the skis, develop fore/aft balance.

4) Take some lessons

Yes number 4 is important but getting that equipment fixed before going to even the 1st lesson would be the best thing he could do. Why? so he is not wasting instructor time i.e. his money trying to be taught with sub par equipment. Yes a good instructor should be able to help with equipment issues but if it is a group 1 hr lesson chances are he will lose a lot of lesson time shuttling back and forth from a rental shop while the instructor keeps working with other guest. They progress, he  falls behind while getting boots/skis fixed etc.

Now if he is smart he will get to a ski area, get proper fitted rentals including boots and take a lesson.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowbowler 

Well SMJ I see a few things from this thread that he can learn.

1) get proper fitted and tuned equipment.

2) Stay on easier terrain, no more blues for a while.

3) Focus on keeping up with the skis, develop fore/aft balance.

4) Take some lessons

Yes number 4 is important but getting that equipment fixed before going to even the 1st lesson would be the best thing he could do. Why? so he is not wasting instructor time i.e. his money trying to be taught with sub par equipment. Yes a good instructor should be able to help with equipment issues but if it is a group 1 hr lesson chances are he will lose a lot of lesson time shuttling back and forth from a rental shop while the instructor keeps working with other guest. They progress, he  falls behind while getting boots/skis fixed etc.

Now if he is smart he will get to a ski area, get proper fitted rentals including boots and take a lesson.

I second this statement.

Though, I'm sure SMJ was not saying he cannot learn anything from online.
He was speaking of his skiing technique. 

My tongue was somewhat in my cheek.  I think the OP is at a level that no one can explain how to ski to him (or her) in writing.  I think there's much to learn in reading at a higher level.

I agree that equipment is important.

The only time the equipment makes a difference on blue runs is when you are skiing on those barrel slats and ya need to lean wayyyy back so the corners on the front dont dig in!!!!

Take a lesson and learn how to commit to the hill, it will take you 1 lesson and you will be oh so happy!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYCJIM 

Keep the inside ski back.   This keeps your body weight evenly over the skis.  

 

Stand in your room with both feet perfectly straight and together.  Notice how easy you are in a position to fall backwards?  If somebody gently pushed you in the chest you'd fall back very easily.

 

Now stand with both feet straight but one is a few inches behind the other.  Notice how your weight is distributed now?  You're in a much stronger position to remain upright if somebody were to push you in the chest.

 

The same principle works in skiing.  If both of your feet are perfectly next to each other it's easy to fall in the backseat. 

 

Keep the inside ski back.  This helps you maintain the fore/aft balance.  If both feet and skis are aligned perfectly, your skis can run out ahead of you and put you in the backseat.  Even parallel skiing does not mean both skis are perfectly lined up together.   If you're turning right, your right ski and leg are pulled back a little.  If you're turning left, your left ski and leg are pulled back a little.

 

(*I'm not a ski instructor, but this was taught to me and it has kept me out of the backseat.  So I offer this info to you to try out for your own experimentation.  But I would always advise taking a lesson.)

you have taken a a drill given you to be an instructor and taken it to far. there should be some tip lead from the inside ski in most situations. There should never be outside ski tip lead in any situation unless your heels arent attaached to your skis.
 

I'm not understanding.  Look at this picture.  See how the inside ski is back from the outside ski?  This is what I'm talking about.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYCJIM 

I'm not understanding.  Look at this picture.  See how the inside ski is back from the outside ski?  This is what I'm talking about.  

 

I assure you its not. Its might be pretty close to even, but its not.

I know what your talking about and trying to say, but he's not turning like you think he is.

Bushwacker is correct, they are pretty even.

Poor guy trying so hard, looks like he's gonna drop a load. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYCJIM 

I'm not understanding.  Look at this picture.  See how the inside ski is back from the outside ski?  This is what I'm talking about.  

 

I don't see how in that picture you can determine the relative positions of the inside and outside skis, as there isn't much of a reference point regarding fore / aft positioning.  However, I do agree with BWPA, in that the inside ski is almost certainly not "back".

For your perusal:

Either that inside ski is forward of the outside one, or Daron's legs aren't attached to his hips in the traditional manner anymore.

All that said, I do agree that it is entirely possible to get your inside ski too far forward, in which case, yes, it does need to be pulled "back".  It is also possible to have your inside ski too far back.

Good advice Jim. Pulling back the inside ski is a drill. Once you have "found" where that ski should be in order to use it properly then the drill is no longer needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by perpdartNY 

Thank you everyone for the help. I will be hitting Whiteface again this weekend and hopefully more green runs will be open this time around. I will take on the lesson advice. But I remember the last time I was there, the group lessons were huge in size. Maybe the earlier I get there the smaller.

P.S.

What sucks is I will have have to pay for rental skis on top of that. Its $35 alone for skis without poles at Whiteface. I will have spent $70 renting skis two times in a row. I wish I would have just bought them along with my boots in the first place.

Thats why my first question was if you rented equipment. =)

I'm new and this is my first post, glad to be here though and hope to never leave.  Perpdart, I'm 30 years old and went skiing for the first time last year without lessons.  I've lived in Skiing Nirvana for 30 years (Utah) and started last year, what a damn shame I know.  I finally took the initiave this year and spent the money on ibe good lesson here at Beaver Mountain in Utah (first lesson of the season by the way).  Best money I could have spent.  I realize no one here knows your financial situation and certainly skiing is one of those "activities" that can be hard to get into simply because of cost.  You and I sound very similar in skill level and I want to pass onto you a few tips the instructor gave me for getting out of the back seat.

1) Do everything in my power to keep my belt buckle facing down slope when turning.  In other words, don't rotate hips, shoulders, etc. when turning, initiate turn with the feet.  This was my absolute worst habit.  After a bit of practice, focusing on the belt buckle helped me stay forward.  Strange how that happens, they seem completely unrelated to me but obviously, what do I know?

2) Stay away from the blues.  I go with friends who have skied since they were 6 months old (not really) but young none the less.  I always want to follow them where they go.  I have to constantly remind myself that someday I'll get there but today is not that day.  It's amazing the skill you can gain on a green run. 

3) Take plenty of breaks.  I'd imagine your legs fatigue quickly being new and working so hard to initiate turns.  I would generally do three runs at a time and then break for a drink for about 10 minutes.  That run after the break felt like it was the first of the day.  I felt light on the skiis. 

Needless to say, my trip one week ago was the best trip yet for me.  It's what I've been waiting for to gain confidence and get back out.  Hope you find these tips useful.  If any of you pro's out there want to correct me, you won't hurt my feelings.  Here's to hittin' the slopes!

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzaggie 

 It's amazing the skill you can gain on a green run. 

 

Take plenty of breaks.   

True!  When I was learning and feeling comfortable to do blues, I returned to the greens to focus on specific skills that were not working out very well on the blues.  Then I worked those skills and practiced them so much on the greens that I could take them with me to the double blacks.  You're going to find that skiing any slope is using the same skills.  

Yes, taking breaks is good.  I'd say to carry a granola bar or two and a very small bottle of a sport drink or water.  Staying hydrated and eating keeps you mentally and physically alert, rather than having you exhaust yourself in a few hours.  Also do stretching, a touching of the toes before and after.  I learned to do that before and after running and it's amazing how it prevents leg fatigue.

Also, the better you get at skiing the LESS effort skiing is.  

Wow, we have basically a new skier asking some basic questions and Bears post FIS racing pro pictures to illustrate a point. How cool and USELESS.

Good Advice.   Take a lesson or two or three, find a good instructor, ask around about the instructors.  Time on the snow.