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I Believe It's True But Want To Check

post #1 of 12
Thread Starter 

In Oct '09 had my boots fitted.  They said the boot was perfect for me, did custom insoles set the cuff angle and forward lean, and heel lifts for limited dorsiflexion and said I was good to go - i.e. nuetral.

 

March of '10 did the L1 Clinic and the Examiner said he thought I was over canted.  Added duct tape to the outside edge of both bindings (1 deg worth) and it felt much better (could have been a placebo effect).  I did get an "exceed" on skills so I'm thinking it was correct.

 

In Oct '10 got the base of my boots planed true and I told the boot fitters what the examiner noticed and along with planing & plates, they also put some shims here and there under my foot beds.  Left foot got (what looks like) a 1 mil sheet under the entire foot bed and the right foot got a slightly thicker posting under the inboard bof.

 

Skied Saturday for the first time and along with being rusty, things seem odd; pivot slips were harder rotating right than left (skis would diverge) and going right was always easier for me.

 

Also noticed that when doing the drill where you lift the inside ski in a turn, I had a harder time lifting my right leg than my left.  My right leg is stronger but this wasn't an issue last season and since then, they've always done the same workout.  It didn't feel like a strenght issue but off balance.

 

I realize I'm giving a sample of one and I'm more than willing to keep at it to see if it was summer rust or is an issue; but is it possible, that I had been compensating for being over canted and now my boots are correct and I have to make adjustments in my skiing to account for this?

 

I'm also thinking it my be the plates on the boots.  They are snug but if I press here or there on the plates, it will go it.  Not a lot but it isn't solid.

 

Is there one think or another I should look at first in troubleshooting this down?

 

Thanks,
Ken


Edited by L&AirC - 12/6/10 at 1:28pm
post #2 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

In Oct '09 had my boots fitted.  They said the boot was perfect for me, did custom insoles set the cuff angle and forward lean, and heel lifts for limited dorsiflexion and said I was good to go - i.e. nuetral.

 

So is it possible that "good to go - i.e. nuetral." is not good enough? 

 

 

March of '10 did the L1 Clinic and the Examiner said he thought I was over canted.  Added duct tape to the outside edge of both bindings (1 deg worth) and it felt much better (could have been a placebo effect).  I did get an "exceed" on skills so I'm thinking it was correct.

 

How hard was it for you to adjust to the canting adjustment you made in March of '10?  

 

 

In Oct '10 got the base of my boots planed true and I told the boot fitters what the examiner noticed and along with planing & plates, they also put some shims here and there under my foot beds.  Left foot got (what looks like) a 1 mil sheet under the entire foot bed and the right foot got a slightly thicker posting under the inboard bof.

 

Were the boots just "planed true" or did the "boot fitters" grind in the 1deg. into the boots before placing the plates on? Why did they put some shims here and there under the footbeds? What is bof? Where these the same "boot fitters" that did the boot work in Oct. '09?

  

Skied Saturday for the first time and along with being rusty, things seem odd; pivot slips were harder rotating right than left (skis would diverge) and going right was always easier for me.

 

Also noticed that when doing the drill where you lift the inside ski in a turn, I had a harder time lifting my right leg than my left.  My right leg is stronger but this wasn't an issue last season and since then, they've always done the same workout.  It didn't feel like a strenght issue but off balance.

 

I realize I'm giving a sample of one and I'm more than willing to keep at it to see if it was summer rust or is an issue; but is it possible, that I had been compensating for being over canted and now my boots are correct and I have to make adjustments in my skiing to account for this?

 

Doubtful that is the case. It is more likely that the difference in the boot setup between March '10 and Oct '10 is the problem 

 

I'm also thinking it my be the plates on the boots.  They are snug but if I press here or there on the plates, it will go it.  Not a lot but it isn't solid.

 

Is there one think or another I should look at first in troubleshooting this down?

 

Thanks,
Ken


Edited by RayCantu - 12/6/10 at 9:27pm
post #3 of 12
Thread Starter 

Ray,

 

Thanks for the responce.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayCantu View Post

How hard was it for you to adjust to the canting adjustment you made in March of '10
 

It wasn't.  Felt better immediately.  I skied that way the rest of the season and I felt good.  I'm not dismissing the Hathorne Effect but I did note that the soles of my boots had rounded and when on a flat surface would rock side to side.

 

Quote:
 

Were the boots just "planed true" or did the "boot fitters" grind in the 1deg. into the boots before placing the plates on? Why did they put some shims here and there under the footbeds? What is bof? Where these the same "boot fitters" that did the boot work in Oct. '09?

 

The boots were planed "true".  BOF is Ball of Foot.  When I told the boot fitters what the examiner said, they check me for lateral balance; after planing they had me stand on the half round things and put some sort of level on the toe of my boot.  I forget the exact measurements but they said the changes they did under the footbed was to get my knees slightly inside of over my toes.  I think when they started I was knee over toe or slightly outside.  I'm not positive what they said but I know they said I was close.  I'm now something like 1/2 or 3/4 degree inside.

 

It wasn't the same boot fitters but it is a well respected shop.  They are MFU Master Bootfitters and belong to ABB.  They cater to many of the local racers and clubs. The previous shop has the same rating but is two more hours of a drive.  I didn't know about the second shop until the snow sports director recommended them to the instructors last season and I had already gone to the first shop prior to that.

 

Quote:
 

Doubtful that is the case. It is more likely that the difference in the boot setup between March '10 and Oct '10 is the problem 

I'm going to give them another day on snow before I do anything.  We have Instructor training this weekend so I'll ask one of the trainers to give me feedback on it.  I'm really starting to think its the plates and not the boots themselves. I believe there is too much give between the plate and boot sole.  I mioght take the plates off and then put a shim on top of the toe and heel (the part that sticks in the binding) to bring them back to DIN.

 

I'm also not dismissing summer rust on my abilities yet either.

 

Thanks,

Ken

 

post #4 of 12

call me crazy, but using my mathematical formulation, your skiing issues started right about Oct '10.

 

read this quote from your post below, and look at the changes ( ? ) that were made under your foot. full foot posting, and forefoot posting are dangerous weapons in the hands of boot fitters that do not have carnal knowledge of how and why the foot works the way it does.(all feet do not react the same based on the individuals unique combo of the bones, muscles, tendons, and ligaments.) the foot will either react to the added ground force of the posting material, or the foot will compensate in some other direction from the posting material. even within the pedorthic community, there are hundreds of theory's about how to manipulate the foot structure for optimum performance.

 

"In Oct '10 got the base of my boots planed true and I told the boot fitters what the examiner noticed and along with planing & plates, they also put some shims here and there under my foot beds.  Left foot got (what looks like) a 1 mil sheet under the entire foot bed and the right foot got a slightly thicker posting under the inboard bof.

 

Skied Saturday for the first time and along with being rusty, things seem odd; pivot slips were harder rotating right than left (skis would diverge) and going right was always easier for me."

 

there may be some change based on the truing, and adding plates to the sole that are having some effect as well, although you being in NH, and me being in Tahoe makes it hard knowing, not seeing what you had pre Oct '10 vs post Oct '10.

 

i am not intending to knock your boot fitter, however something changed from spring to fall, and you described the work that was done by your boot fitter. for me the smoking gun lies somewhere between added posting under the footbed, and or a rounded sole that got trued, or a rounded sole that had the angles changed with repair????????

 

i would start by going out and skiing again in different conditions, i would check the set up of your skis ( prepped? ), and after that, I would reverse the stuff under your footbed (back to March "10), and after that take some duct tape up on the hill and see the effects of increasing or decreasing the sole cant.

 

best of luck,

 

jim

post #5 of 12
Thread Starter 

Jim,

Thanks.  I wasn't even thinking of the postings as being the issue.  I'll move this up in thr priority of things to try AFTER another day of skiing and having the trainers watch me ski.

 

In the bootfitters defense (who I think is very good), he made the changes non permament (other than the planing) and said if it doesn't work, come back and we'll try something else or you can take it out.  He said that my boots were good and any changes to them should be based on how I ski and made the changes he did based on the examiners input.

 

The skis are good.  In fact the first pair I used are my favorite skis (Atomic LT11) and I put them away and grabbed another pair because of the issue.  I thought the tune might be off but when I changed skis, I kept the issues.  That narrows it down to the boots or me.  I would like to think it's the boots but it wouldn't be the first time I blamed gear for poor technique.  The trainers all know me and my skiing from last year and will be able to tell whats different.

 

Thanks,

Ken

post #6 of 12
Thread Starter 

First, I had a couple things backwards; the full foot posting is on the right foot and the bof posting is on the left foot (didn't have the boots infront of me at the time).  The other thing that was different was I changed the liners.  They are molded Intuition tongue liner - FX model.  Standing still they feel identical to the Gold ID that was in there but skiing they are different. The flex is softer and the tongue and wrap, I'm guessing perform differently.  Apologize for leaving these details out and getting some backwards.

 

I did ski this past weekend and with no changes to the boots, it was much better.  I'm leaning towards summer rust and liner differences for at least part of the problem.  I believe those two are behing me now since skiing this past weekend felt pretty good.  Pivot slips and the like weren't an issue anymore.

 

I did however notice when I would first start out, my skis tended to get on edge before I was expecting them too.  Once I was skiing, everything was fine.  Maybe this is from the postings to get my knees slightly inside my toe center.

 

There was still some gaps between the plates and the boots and it's caused by the screws that mount the plates to the boots.  I think the best bet to get the plates solid against the boot is to use contact cement (temp range is -40F to 180F) to keep the plates on.  I could probably follow this up with the screws but I would just assume not use them.  Do any of you have any thoughts or experience with using contact cement to hold the plates on the boots? 

 

I didn't get anyone to check my alignment because they were so busy with training.  None of the trainers brought anything up to me about my aligment during training so I'm guessing nothing significant is happening. 

 

Thanks,
Ken

post #7 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

I did however notice when I would first start out, my skis tended to get on edge before I was expecting them too.  Once I was skiing, everything was fine.  Maybe this is from the postings to get my knees slightly inside my toe center.

 

Just wondering about the meaning of "postings to get my knees slightly inside my toe center "? Posting is usully done to a footbed is that what you are refering to? Also which "toe center" are you refering to?

 

There was still some gaps between the plates and the boots and it's caused by the screws that mount the plates to the boots.  I think the best bet to get the plates solid against the boot is to use contact cement (temp range is -40F to 180F) to keep the plates on.  I could probably follow this up with the screws but I would just assume not use them.  Do any of you have any thoughts or experience with using contact cement to hold the plates on the boots? 

 

Where are the gaps? Are they where the the bottom of the boot sole contacts the binding? Not sure about the contact cement might want to use something more substantial and still use the screws.

 

post #8 of 12
Thread Starter 

Ray,

 

Thanks.  See below.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayCantu View Post

Just wondering about the meaning of "postings to get my knees slightly inside my toe center "? Posting is usully done to a footbed is that what you are refering to? Also which "toe center" are you refering to?
The bootfitter said the center of my knee was pretty close to directly over the toe center (I might be using the wrong term here.  Maybe he said boot center).  If I remember right, he was trying to get my knee center over my big toe instead of my middle toe.  The examiner said I looked over canted.  I tended to have a wide stance.  That is no longer the case.
 
 
Where are the gaps? Are they where the the bottom of the boot sole contacts the binding? Not sure about the contact cement might want to use something more substantial and still use the screws.

The gaps are here and there between the plates and the boot's sole to include where the sole would come in contact with the binding.
post #9 of 12
Quote:
Just wondering about the meaning of "postings to get my knees slightly inside my toe center "? Posting is usully done to a footbed is that what you are refering to? Also which "toe center" are you refering to?
The bootfitter said the center of my knee was pretty close to directly over the toe center (I might be using the wrong term here.  Maybe he said boot center).  If I remember right, he was trying to get my knee center over my big toe instead of my middle toe.  The examiner said I looked over canted.  I tended to have a wide stance.  That is no longer the case.
 
 
 How was the bootfitter making this adjustment? Canting the boot sole or posting the footbed?
 



 

post #10 of 12
Thread Starter 

Quote:Originally Posted by RayCantu View Post
 

 

Quote:
How was the bootfitter making this adjustment? Canting the boot sole or posting the footbed?

 

Posting the foot bed.  The boot sole was planed flat because the edges were rounded.

post #11 of 12



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

Quote:Originally Posted by RayCantu View Post
 

 

Quote:
How was the bootfitter making this adjustment? Canting the boot sole or posting the footbed?

 

Posting the foot bed.  The boot sole was planed flat because the edges were rounded.



Do you think that the bootfitter understood/understands that posting the footbed to change knee position is not the same as changing the angle of the boot sole?

 

Last season when the examiner told you that you were 'over-edged' (my term for overcanted) the correction was putting tape on the bindings.

 

It worked well, the result was immediate and required no adjustment period (the tape does the same thing as changing the boot sole but is not the same as changing the footbed).

 

Like comparing apples and oranges... they are different. Chapter 10 here http://tinyurl.com/2859fpb has some information on the differences. 


 

post #12 of 12
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayCantu View Post

Do you think that the bootfitter understood/understands that posting the footbed to change knee position is not the same as changing the angle of the boot sole?  Yes.

 

Last season when the examiner told you that you were 'over-edged' (my term for overcanted) the correction was putting tape on the bindings.  Yes however the tape also took out the slop of the rounded edges.

 

It worked well, the result was immediate and required no adjustment period (the tape does the same thing as changing the boot sole but is not the same as changing the footbed).

 

Like comparing apples and oranges... they are different. Chapter 10 here http://tinyurl.com/2859fpb has some information on the differences. 


 


 

In two different shops, both with Master Fit U alumni and ABB cert, I've been told I don't need boot sole planing.  My legs are straight.  I'm told to do different things and they measure different things and I'm told I'm right where I should be.

 

With regards to the foot bed posting, this past weekend one of the L3's said to me "Nice turns out there."  I've never been told that.  I don't know that what I was given for postings was right but my skiing is better; different but better.

 

With regards to the plates; I used contact cement to hold them in place then screwed them in.  I still need to find a more durable epoxy to fill the gaps at the toe and heel.  The plates stayed flat when I screwed them down this time.

 

The plates more than anything are the biggest pain in the butt.  If I ever need to do this again, I'll have the soles planed true and have shims added to the top of the heel and toe lug.

 

Thanks for all the help and guidance on this.  Has lead me through a trial and error approach and I believe the biggest issue was summer rust and me getting used to the new set up.

 

Ken


 


Edited by L&AirC - 12/21/10 at 4:13pm
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