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Snowboard Turn Mechanics - How Do They Do It?

post #1 of 7
Thread Starter 

How does a snow boarder release the turn? Or initiate one? How do they tip? No ILE or OLF is possible! Can we learn something from snowboarding? Which BTW is much cooler than skiing duck.gif. At least these guys look way cooler than the supercarver in the skiing thread....

 

post #2 of 7

there's no inside leg or outside leg in their case, but they still have knees and hips.  It should be the same concept.  A "virtual bump" in the transition.  Like a double leg retraction followed by double leg extension.  DLR-DLE.  =)

 

...and noone looks cooler than the supercarver.

post #3 of 7
Golly ... I wasn't aware that the Human Nose could be used as an Outrigger!


When evaluating proposed movement patterns I generally imagine that pattern applied by a one-legged skier and consider the inputs and outcomes in that scenario. Only after that analysis do I consider the implications of two-footed scenarios. This helps me evaluate that pattern's direct effect on ski/snow interaction in isolation of Tip-Lead, Foot-to-Foot weighing/balance issues and of course all the timing variations possible with multi-legged action.

Snowboarding provides for a more isolated examination of board/snow interaction though the rider's orientation is quite different (which affects the movement patterns available to them vs. skiers).


While many of the 'carves' in that video are interesting - the transitions into and out-of those deep carves leave much to be desired. As most skiers know, the transition is everything. It's pretty darned easy to demonstrate the Perfect Carve from 15% after the turn began until it's 90% complete - it's a whole lot harder to demonstrate good technique in the transitional 25%.

Out of curiosity, why is this called 'Super Carving'? I don't see the snowboard carving any differently than in a regular 'carve'. Is it because the rider is also Body-Surfing to accommodate the fact that they've leaned over too far to maintain lateral balance and have fallen onto the surface? biggrin.gif

.ma
post #4 of 7

If you want to know the mechanics for turn transitions on a snowboard, why not post on the snowboarding forum?

 

Anyways, you can cross under or cross over just like you would do if you were skiing on one foot.  One advantage of snowboarding (vs skiing on one ski) is that you can flex the board torsionally (commonly referred to as "gas pedaling"), so you can engage the downhill edge while releasing the uphill edge.

 

I only watched a small segment, but that's not what I would want to emulate on a board.  I agree with MichaelA.

post #5 of 7
Thread Starter 

I think its called super carving becuase of the tight arc. Snowboarders that incline half or what these guys do also turn much wider. Also, its quite radical. That much projection into the turn. I for one think its awsome.

 

I also dont think its all about the transition. Sure its important but I think its more like all about the actual turn. Keep it tight and edge locked. Hold the line. Project yourself into the turn and be able to get out of there.

 

But what Im really after here is how do they release the turn? They cannot extend the inside leg or flex the outside. Maybe there is something we can learn from this. Maybe the release as we have been describing it is bunk?

post #6 of 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundown View Post

One advantage of snowboarding (vs skiing on one ski) is that you can flex the board torsionally (commonly referred to as "gas pedaling"), so you can engage the downhill edge while releasing the uphill edge.


Wow - do snowboards really twist (longitudinally) that much? How close to 'flat' against the surface does the midpoint need to be such that opposite edges at tip and tail can be engaged?

Also (as I recall) snowboarders can artificially control the amount of bend in the board (lengthwise) by going knock-kneed or bow-legging... right? This too is unavailable to skiers. Sure would be nice to artificially pre-bend the skis right at turn entry (and only at turn entry - 'Rocker' is perpetual).

.ma
post #7 of 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

But what Im really after here is how do they release the turn? They cannot extend the inside leg or flex the outside. Maybe there is something we can learn from this. Maybe the release as we have been describing it is bunk?


How does a skier release a turn when skiing on only one ski? Isn't that (essentially) the same mechanical problem?

For me, the release movement pattern I use for two-ski skiing is the same as for one-ski skiing. I don't rely on "pushing" myself out of the old turn by extending the old inside-leg (though it's an option at any given moment). I also don't rely on 'dropping' out of the old turn by relaxing/retracting the old outside-leg (again, I keep the option available). Instead of either, I rely primarily on managing the directional effect that centrifugal force is having on my body.

The built-in 3D geometry/mechanics of a typical turn provides a constantly available mechanism to migrate our CM from inside one turn, across the skis, and to the inside of a turn going the other direction. No "jettison impulse" by the skier is required to cause this crossover to begin - but such a move will be needed if a skier blocks this natural migration for too long.

Many skiers hold onto a turn until they're going nearly across the slope (for speed control). Because a natural crossover was not permitted to start sooner, an artificial mechanism is now required to quickly jettison the current lateral position (CM still uphill of the skis) and force a fast migration across the skis into a new 'safe position' planted firmly inside the new set of edges. This is why Active Weight Transfer becomes necessary for such skiers rather than just being an option. If the skier had permitted a more natural (though managed) migration of the CM across the skis then no AWT is needed and PWT becomes a practical and efficient option.

Inside-Leg Extension [ILE] is a mechanism that accelerates the process of crossover. A continued ILE effort is required to keep it going properly if the skier was parked inside the old turn too long. Outside-leg Retraction [OLR] effectively does the same thing but from a different perspective (eg. collapsing the left leg instead of extending the right leg - both topple the CM to the left, with OLR being faster).

Counter-steering of a single ski late in the old turn will also accelerate crossover - demonstrating again that we don't need two legs/skis to release old turns nor initiate and link new turns.

---
Intermediate skiers wanting to improve their skiing can do so by exploring transition methods which don't rely on pushing (or dropping) the CM out of the old turn.

Start by relaxing tension in the overall body and try to 'feel' the migration of the body from old turn, across the skis and into the new turn. Let the migration start happening earlier (like right after Apex) and thereby avoid having to drive the migration process later with deliberate ILE or OLR patterns to 'catch up' with where the body needs to be in terms of lateral motion/balance to accomplish crossover.

Done properly, the skier can feel most of their weight remain on the old outside-foot right into the start of the new turn, then be 'pulled' by centrifugal force from that (now inside) foot onto the new outside-foot with no effort by the skier (passive). Flexing of the old outside-leg with extension of the old inside-leg takes place - but now it's *only* to accommodate the Virtual Bump rather than to try and 'pull' or 'push' the CM across the skis.

.ma
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