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Intuition Plug Liner (version2) - second look - On The Snow

post #1 of 98
Thread Starter 

After striking up a conversation with the folks at Intuition about their new line of liners, they offered to send me a pair to test drive. And while the grass is still green outside my window here on the coast of Maine, I figured I'd give you all a look at them, and share some early thoughts.

 

Me: 54 years old - 45 years or so on snow, level 9 +/- depending on the day and terrain, recently 

transformed from Old School to New School technique (http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/84855/what-i-did-on-my-summer-vacation-or-where-mainers-go-when-the-snow-goes), current boot - '09 Nordica Doberman Pro 130 (26.5 - street shoe 9.5 US), personal stuff - major chicken shins, small heel, skinny ankle and medium forefoot.

 

Perhaps I am an unlikely test subject for Intuition liners. I bought a pair two years ago and could not get them to work. They were Power Wraps which I used in a pair of Krypton Pro's. For well over a year I tried to get them to fit without success. The unresolvable problem was that they were too short. They were size 8 - the same as the shells. Nothing worked. I endured 4 or 5 fittings at the shop where I bought them. We tried every top cap they had. Nothing. So in February 2009, when I was at Vail, I took them into Greg Hoffman's shop and one of his guy's put the pneumatic "rack" to it. Still wicked toe crunch. He also took off the rear cuff thinking that might lengthen it for me. Nope.

Finally I gave up. I am sure the Power Wrap is a great product. People love it. But even the best liner, ski or boot is no good if it does not fit.

 

While I was not in the market for a new shell, I found a great season-end deal at the Ski Depot on the Doberman's. Instant love. One finger shell fit ( like my old Tecnica XT17's, may they rest in peace). Great 98mm in the fore foot. The stock liner was OK but nothing special. So I blew the dust off my 5 year old Doberman leather race liners - the kind that lace up and look like boxing boots. I skied all last year with this set up. And it was great. I got fitted with some Aline foot beds that took the "A frame away and put me in excellent balance.

 

As the season wore on, and it got colder, so did my feet. The only thing colder than a leather race liner, is a leather race liner that is packed out. Much as I hated to admit it, I had to retire these.

 

So I went back in the archives to see what people liked. Back to the biggest players - Intuition and Zipfit. General consensus (with acknowledged exceptions) was that Zipfits may have the edge on absolute performance, but Intuition had the edge on warmth. And some felt the plug liners from Intuition were virtually no compromise at all. Frankly, I was not crazy about investing in another pair of Intuitions, no matter the model, if their sizing was the same.

 

As it happened, a pair of Zipfit Grand Prix's came up on Ebay. They were "well-loved," but they were also a whole lot less than a new pair at $350. They came. I put them on. Heaven. There is just something about a leather liner that I love. And these things fit like a glove on my foot - and like an overstuffed burritto (as steepcreeper put it) in my shells. No way. Not even close. I would have to go up at least a size and a half to get those Zips in a shell. The Gara's or WC's might do it - but I just did not want to spend $350 for a liner that may be as cold as my beloved race liners.

 

So back on Promotive where Intuition offers a 40% deal to members (unsolicited plug for Epic membership). Some correspondence back and forth with the nice folks at Intuition, and now I have a pair of the new version of their plug liner. And here it is.

Liner4.tif

 

Does not look much like the Power Wrap

 

Liner8.tif

 

My old race liner is on the left.

I do not need to dwell on the obvious differences  between the v1 Power Wrap and v2 Plug Liner. Wrap vs tongue. Cut higher in back, lower in front. Spiderman motif (unintentional?). What is also immediately apparent is how much less liner volume there is in the same size.

 

Liner9.tif

That is quite apparent in the cuff profile and forefoot area. The "wrap"  adds even more volume.

Note the narrower heel pocket as well - much more like the race liner.

 

Liner7.tif

 

And these liners were clearly designed for 98mm lasts or less.

 

Liner6.tif

 

Here is how they look in the shell - I like it.

 

Liner1.tif

 

 

And again,

 

Liner2.tif

 

And again,

 

Liner3.tif

 

So, first question I had was how they would feel out of the shell. Would they compact my toes like their PW cousins. No problem. I wear Hot Chilis super thin socks, or the like. And with these, my big toe just touches. But unlike the PW's, these new plugs have an elasticized toe box -  just what my PW's needed. Out of the shell they do not feel special. I have come to like that blood pressure cuff feeling of the leather race liners. But that is no criticism of the Intuitions which have a different design

         

So would they even fit in my shells (unlike the PW's and Zipfits). Again, no problem. They slipped right in like they were a stock liner made for that shell. 

 

I buckled them up. They fit pretty well with the same settings as my leather liners, which means plenty of room to loosen and tight. Felt great. Even as I write this I am wearing the boots with the Intuition on one foot and the leather liner on the other. If I did not know it, I would say they were the same liner. Each has excellent heel hold, though the nod goes to the race liner. Not surprising since it has molded to my foot over years. And my foot and the Intuition are new acquaintances. As I am proofing this, I have had the boots on for about 25 minutes, and the fit with the Intuitions is getting more secure - heel is settling in and there is better hold in the forefoot.

 

Of course I neglected to mention one critical difference between the v1 and v2 liners. The new one requires no heat molding. And right out of the box it feels better than the PW's did after 4 or 5 cooks (lost count). I asked the folks at Intuition if there was any fancy ritual to go through to mold the new ones - nope. Just plug and play, so to say. Because they are foam, I would expect them to mold to the contours of the foot, and fit even better. That seems to be happening - and without the torture of the heat process.

 

A few final thoughts. The tongue on the new plug is considerably thinner than the one on my race liners. I would say that it has the same thickness as the inner wrap of the v1 PW. There is enough tongue showing on the front to put the Power Wrap around it and cinch - a good thing for those of us cursed with chicken shins. The foam in v2 is considerably more pliable than in the v1 PW. While the foam in the new one is "soft," it is not a cushy fit - not at all. It is a serious close to the shell plug fit. Whether this appeals to you - well, you know who you are. I, for one, love it.

 

All in all, this liner holds great promise for me. Two things I can will not know is how damp they feel (a frequent observation by PW users) and how warm they will be. They already feel pretty damn toasty compared to my leather race liners. Stay tuned for on-the-snow updates.

 

Thanks for reading,

Happy trails,

David


Edited by deliberate1 - 11/28/10 at 12:39pm
post #2 of 98

Great review and insight. I've used both the Power Wrap model and and earlier version of an Intuition liner with a tongue. Both had advantages but I prefer the model with a tongue too. I think the Power Wrap is a good upgraded liner that also adds stiffness to an old boot that you may have outgrown. The new models that do not require cooking should be well received.

post #3 of 98

Nice review and the liners look really good..

I just looked on the intuition site and couldn't find a liners like yours.. Which model are these exactly??? Thanks..

post #4 of 98
Thread Starter 



Andy, much obliged. The ones I got and you see here are samples, as I understand it. They have not been released. 

I am just a guy that was at the right place at the right time and Intuition sent a pair to me for a "man on the trail" review.

David

post #5 of 98

I've been curious about these new v2 liners as I'm going to need new liners very soon.  Did the folks you talk to at Intuition have any insight on whether they expect these to be able to achieve as good of a fit as the v1 liners?  I don't see how they could without the heating process.

post #6 of 98
I want to try those....
post #7 of 98
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaobrien6 View Post

I've been curious about these new v2 liners as I'm going to need new liners very soon.  Did the folks you talk to at Intuition have any insight on whether they expect these to be able to achieve as good of a fit as the v1 liners?  I don't see how they could without the heating process.


First off, I am no spokesperson for Intuition - just a guy who happened to be at the right place at the right time. So they have not shared with me their marketing strategy nor would I ask. But I would assume that this company, which has enjoyed no small amount of success in this area, would not release a product that was generally perceived as inferior in fit or performance. I never told them about my issues with the Power Wrap. But I probably am a good one to test drive the new product for that very reason. As for me, the "good" fit has come with the new generation - not the old one.

David

post #8 of 98

Hi David,

 

Great write-up. Thanks for making it happen and I'm looking ahead to your on-snow review.

 

Intuition impresses me with their continued product development. "No Cooking" is a real plus and your thoughts on conforming fit after a few days skiing will be of great interest to many. I'm a very happy user of the Intuition Power Wrap for fit, warmth and comfort it provides over the stock liner. I'm sure glad I had a real pro (Skiing in Jackson) as the chef who cooked them.  Like you, I was able to replace a standard liner and extend boot life in a shell I liked - a good thing!

 

If there is a new boot in the foreseeable future, it just may be the Dalbello Scorpion when the marriage of that boot and Intuition liner is fully developed.

 

Mike

post #9 of 98

That looks like a nice liner David! ...good play.  Much thinner than the Plug model I got a few years ago.   Able to locally heat(ie tongue) with hairdryer/heatgun for little more expansion?   Wondering how much longer till order-able, if my Luxury model on order... doesn't work well.  Per LP, will look forward to on-snow review.

Steve


Edited by HaveSkisWillClimb - 11/29/10 at 11:22am
post #10 of 98

David, thanks much for your review. I had posted a query on these new 2.0 liners several weeks ago but got few responses and many did not know they were coming out. I have traded emails with Intuition and these liners are due out in mid to late December with a retail price near $200 - had not been set yet and that is an estimate. You are in exactly the same boat I am regarding foot size and fit, especially in the toe area. I am very much looking forward to your "on snow" review as far as performance and comfort and go, including warmth. Please let us know when you ski them.

 

By the way do you use custom inserts and if so did you put them in with the new 2.0 Liners?

 

Mike

post #11 of 98

"So back on Promotive where Intuition offers a 40% deal to members (unsolicited plug for Epic membership). Some correspondence back and forth with the nice folks at Intuition, and now I have a pair of the new version of their plug liner."

 

Do I understand correctly that if you are an Epic "supporter", thru Promotive you get a 40% discount on any Intuition liner?

post #12 of 98

Look's like you had the PW heatform with the outside wrap in instead of inside wrap in tibia first , or is that a bootfitter trick's for low volume calf. 

Are Red PW  as stiff as the grey pw  on the squeeze test ?   

beercheer.gif


 


 

Liner8.tif

 

 

post #13 of 98
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBachelor View Post

"So back on Promotive where Intuition offers a 40% deal to members (unsolicited plug for Epic membership). Some correspondence back and forth with the nice folks at Intuition, and now I have a pair of the new version of their plug liner."

 

Do I understand correctly that if you are an Epic "supporter", thru Promotive you get a 40% discount on any Intuition liner?


The current deal from Intuition on Promotive is 40% off their current line (v1). The discount is about 1/3 more than the cost of Epic membership - which
may help with the ladies, Mr. TheBachelor....

And as indicated, I did have my Aline foot beds in the Intuitions - the ones I have use in the leather race lines. I did not have to trim or otherwise modify them.


Edited by deliberate1 - 11/30/10 at 8:12am
post #14 of 98

Wow-I have been battling my Dobermanns for several years meaning, I absolutely love the performance but not so much the numb toes.

Anyway, do you think the Intuition has any MORE volume than the race liner?

post #15 of 98

WOW, that looks like a huge improvement. 

 

When the V2 liner is in the boot, is it substantially higher at both the front and rear cuff areas? 

 

I have the older plug liner and it is far too short to get any leverage on the boot (150 flex WC Atomics).  In fact, the power strap is partially above the liner at the front and cuts into my shin (the stock liner, which is too uncomfortable to use, is about 1.5" higher than the power strap, as it should be).  The back isn't any better, and the liner barely clears the back of the shell.

 

Here are some pics of the V1 Intuition Plug liner vs. the stock liner.  Will the V2 liner be closer to the height of the stock liner? 

 

 

SDSCF5045.JPG

 

SDSCF5046.JPG

 

SDSCF5042.JPG

 

SDSCF5039.JPG

 

 

 

 

post #16 of 98

I disagree with the way Intuition is badging this liner.  This really shouldn't be "2.0" - it's an entirely different type of liner for them and this comparison of the V1 versus the V2 is not an apples-to-apples comparison.  They are two very different animals.  Comparing their tongued liner to a wrap liner is full of problems.

 


I'll reserve judgment on the new liners until I get a chance to try them myself, but I would expect to see Intuition come out with a V2 version of the Power Wrap liner also.

 

BTW - If your wrap liner was really baked with the flaps backwards then I know the shop you used was useless in your previous attempts to get happy with the Power Wraps.

post #17 of 98

exracer - my Power Wrap Plugs are significantly taller than yours (probably by about 2").  What year were yours purchased?

post #18 of 98
500

I think I see what you're talking about (the ^above is a 2008) but the Power Wrap != Plug?
post #19 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler View Post

exracer - my Power Wrap Plugs are significantly taller than yours (probably by about 2").  What year were yours purchased?


I think I got those ones towards the end of the 2007 season to go into a pair of Lange plug boots.  I re-cooked them last year for the Atomic plugs.

 

I wonder why mine are so damned short?  They should be the same as yours and comprex's.

post #20 of 98
I suspect mine are so damned tall because there were two 220+lb guys (read: built like sword board crew) yanking, tugging, pulling and hauling hot liner material up out of the shell while m'foot was in there.

This made the thickness of the material in the shell less than it would have been otherwise.


Reversing the sense of the flap from medial-in to lateral-in: doesn't that also change the edging feel?

Medial-in : more _direct_ pressure on inside edges (less leg motion) ?

Lateral-in was what we did with the old Raichle Thermoflexes, no?

Mnemonic: Medial Out - Old MO. Medial iN - New MO
Edited by comprex - 12/1/10 at 5:16am
post #21 of 98
double post
post #22 of 98
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler View Post

BTW - If your wrap liner was really baked with the flaps backwards then I know the shop you used was useless in your previous attempts to get happy with the Power Wraps.



Noodler and 64-97mm, the PW's you see in the pics were cooked with the correct flap postion. What you seen in the pics aboove are how they came out of my closet, not how they were fitted. 

David

post #23 of 98
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by patronsilver View Post

Wow-I have been battling my Dobermanns for several years meaning, I absolutely love the performance but not so much the numb toes.

Anyway, do you think the Intuition has any MORE volume than the race liner?



That is a hard one to answer. The leather liners I have are at least 5 years old and are packed out. And the guts are not foam like the Intuitions. So comparing a new lienr to an old one of a completely different type has limited value. What I can says is the the new Intuition fits a whole lot like my old leather ones with more hold in the forefoot. If you like the fit you got with your race liners, you probably will like the Intuition plug - and I suspect your toes will like it too. Hope this helps.

David

David 

post #24 of 98

The answer I was looing for!

According to Intuition-these liners will be availale in mid-December.

Now if it would only snow in Vermont!

post #25 of 98
Thread Starter 

Friends,

Got a note from Intuition as follows:

 

"The new '2.0' liners will arrive mid-December. There will be 3 thicknesses in the tongue model, and will be called 'Dream Liners.' We will also offer 2 thicknesses in the '2.0' Power Wrap models." So those who wondered about a new Power Wrap, that is your answer.

I asked about a the possiblity of a group buy offer for Epic. The response was that "Promotive discount is probably as good as it gets." That is a 40% discount. This suggests that the new liners will be on Promotive. If the liners are around $200, as suggested by TheBachelor, that would be an $80 savings which is about twice the cost of Epic membership. So all you guys that want that deal, pony up on the membership. Lots of other very sweet deals on Promitive - like BCA packs. And Tasers. I am thinking of Tasers all around for presents this year. It could be the next "must have "item for lift line management....

I hope to get out for the first turns of the season at the Loaf this weekend and will use the liners and report back. But it is supposed to rain for the next two days. We will have to see how it goes.

David  

post #26 of 98


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deliberate1 View Post

Friends,

Got a note from Intuition as follows:

 

"The new '2.0' liners will arrive mid-December. There will be 3 thicknesses in the tongue model, and will be called 'Dream Liners.' We will also offer 2 thicknesses in the '2.0' Power Wrap models." So those who wondered about a new Power Wrap, that is your answer.

I asked about a the possiblity of a group buy offer for Epic. The response was that "Promotive discount is probably as good as it gets." That is a 40% discount. This suggests that the new liners will be on Promotive. If the liners are around s suggested by TheBachelor, that would be an $80 savings which is about twice the cost of Epic membership. So all you guys that want that deal, pony up on the membership. Lots of other very sweet deals on Promitive - like BCA packs. And Tasers. I am thinking of Tasers all around for presents this year. It could be the next "must have "item for lift line management....

I hope to get out for the first turns of the season at the Loaf this weekend and will use the liners and report back. But it is supposed to rain for the next two days. We will have to see how it goes.

David  



Thanks for the info David. Am I correct that you have the "Dream" plug tongue liner in the thinnest offered?

post #27 of 98
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the info David. Am I correct that you have the "Dream" plug tongue liner in the thinnest offered?



I would assume so. I can not imagine why anyone would want or need one thinner than the one I got. And it is their "plug" version.

post #28 of 98
Question, it looks as though the plastic "spine" on the tongue of that liner is only on the upper half ?
post #29 of 98

I wouldn't call it plastic (or a spine).  It's just a stiffer reinforcement material to better distribute pressure points that can develop along the front of the tongue.  You wouldn't want it to go any lower as that would make instep comfort more problematic.

post #30 of 98
Figure ~40A durometer. Nowhere nearly as dense or stiff as an equal thickness of neoprene, frex.
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