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Bending the Skis -- Active or Passive?

Poll Results: How do you go about bending your skis?

 
  • 12% (2)
    actively
  • 12% (2)
    passively
  • 50% (8)
    both; it depends
  • 25% (4)
    a simple answer just won't do
16 Total Votes  
post #1 of 37
Thread Starter 

Discussions abound on the issue of active or passive weight transfer.  

But what about bending the skis?

 

ACTIVE:  

Do you actively bend your skis?

Do you deliberately control how much your skis bend?

Do you pay close attention to the bend, feeling its intensity and duration, and modulate those as you are skiing?

Is there a way of bending them deliberately that works well, and are there other ways that are problematic?

 

PASSIVE:  

Do you deliberately focus on other things, and allow the bending to take care of itself?

How does this work?

Is there a technical advantage in allowing the skis to bend, rather than making them bend?

 

WHEN & WHERE:

Do speed, terrain, and conditions influence this process for you?

--hard snow, ice, gates?

--soft snow, trees, chutes?

--groomers, bumps?

post #2 of 37

LF,

 

I never think about bending my ski. The ski bends in response to pressure placed on it. On a hard snow surface the degree of bend is determined by the amount of sidecut and the angle of the ski in relation to the snow surface. I am often involved it trying to tip the skis more or less or guide the ski to where I want it to go but I don't think I have ever had the thought that I should try to bend the ski more or less.

 

Now that sounds like I would vote for passive but I actually voted for no simple answer because I skiing (and here at Epic) there is never a simple answer.

 

fom

post #3 of 37

Totally agree with fatoldman. Just one thing to add - I guess you can bend different parts of the ski, i.e. by getting inverted and ahead of your feet at the start of the turn you can put more pressure (and therefore more bend - if the surface is not "infinitely hard") on the front of the ski.

I suppose I would have voted "passive" but I don't find that a very helpful word to use in connection with good skiing. ("If a skier is not being active, what is he/she doing on the snow?" - to paraphrase Bill Shankly.)

Perhaps "direct" or "indirect" would be better...

post #4 of 37
LF, Those are all the right questions to be asking! I voted 'Both' for a number of reasons.

For starters, we'll acknowledge that a ski bends based purely on mechanical coercion and therefore such bending is always 'active' when considered in that isolated context. Only when considering deliberate input to changes in the speed or degree of bending do we open the doorway for evaluating bending patterns as either passive or active.

That said, I often intentionally manage the degree to which each ski bends.
Depending on the needs of a specific moment I may deliberately ...
- 'pull' a foot back to force that ski's tip to bend further (or perhaps sooner).
- slide a foot forward to permit that ski's tip to unbend a bit.
- 'pull' both feet back (via dorsiflexion / hip action / knee action - even waist action) to get both tips to bend a bit more.
- slide both feet forward (see previous list) to relieve a bit of bend.
- drive one or both skis laterally with a heel-push to quickly 'crush' the skis into a bend.
- use ILS to apply added torque to one or both skis already on edge (forces tip's edge deeper, bending it more).

Do I ever just let the skis bend passively (unmanaged - just letting the skis bend based strictly on ski-snow interaction)? Sure.
Many turns work out perfectly with no adjustment effort required. As I tip the ski, ski-snow interaction does its thing and the ski bends on its own with no added management effort on my part. I think most turns on easy terrain fall into this category - at least at initiation.

Thinking back to classic stiff ski designs the only way to get high performance was to actively bend the ski into its curvature. This required something extra at turn entry to make it work. Perhaps a firm heel-push would do it. Or active up & down motion (bounding or unweighting/weighting). Maybe even a deliberate effort to lever forward onto the tips. (Heck, maybe all three!)


** "Is there a technical advantage in allowing the skis to bend, rather than making them bend?" **

From a purely mechanical standpoint, yep. "Efficiency" (meaning conservation of energy/effort required) is often considered a technical advantage so any time we're imparting an extra 'something' to make things happen were expending more energy than if we'd simply allowed them to happen on their own. Unfortunately, that measurement is often misapplied by measuring the energy expended in a single portion of a single turn without regard to follow-on consequences. In reality, it's not very "efficient" to let our skis slowly bend on their own - and end up going off a cliff because it took too long... smile.gif


"WHEN & WHERE? --hard snow, ice, gates? --soft snow, trees, chutes? --groomers, bumps?"

I'd say we're much more active managing the bend in our skis (beyond mere control of the tipping angle) any time turn radius needs close management.

We're always 'active' about it when tipping alone can't solve a directional problem fast enough (like when someone cuts you off). Here an intermediate skier will resort to a quick and simple heel-push while an advanced skier might either lever the tips more (a F/A adjustment) or use some extra torque via ILS along with some rapidly-added tipping.

I think skiing in soft snow on stiff skis requires a much more active approach. Typically, our skis will simply trench themselves into a long radius turn while our body takes the short radius turn path (redface.gif)... that is, unless we use an active method to bend our skis right at turn entry.


For a Simple Answer: Any time our forward progress through the snow isn't sufficient to bend our skis (to the degree necessary for our intent) we're stuck implementing an active means to get the skis bent enough for our intent. Otherwise, we can save a little energy by letting typical ski-snow interaction take care of it for us.


.ma
Edited by michaelA - 11/19/10 at 4:05pm
post #5 of 37

 

I actively do things (getting forward, flexing at transition, & tilting the skis to higher edge angles) which will indirectly induce a bent ski, but I never apply direct pressure to bend it or take other active measures to directly bend it.  I consider this passive, but it may be active by your definition.  In my mind, I'm tightening the turn.  The fact that a ski bends to accomplish this is outside of my mental focus.

post #6 of 37

Good for you LF...putting the "Both - it depends" into it = fits me 100%.   Love to arc em', but intended passitivity has its place....as in some feathering with pitch or gliding through a meadow section off in the BC...

$.01

post #7 of 37
Thread Starter 

How about rebound?  Do you deliberately work your skis to produce rebound as they decamber?  

If so, on what terrain and in what conditions?  To what purpose?  

 

How about more subtle effects of bending the skis deliberately?  

post #8 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

How about rebound?  Do you deliberately work your skis to produce rebound as they decamber?  

If so, on what terrain and in what conditions?  To what purpose?  

 

How about more subtle effects of bending the skis deliberately?  


The "rebound" effect you ask about is not produced by the cambering and decambering of the skis per se. To appreciate this, grab a ski and bend it with your hands - doesn't require much force, right? Rebound is produced by release of the edges and subsequent redirection of momentum.
 

post #9 of 37

These are the kind of questions you ask when you dont have a clue..... icon13.gif

post #10 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

These are the kind of questions you ask when you dont have a clue..... icon13.gif


sorry about that.  

post #11 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

These are the kind of questions you ask when you dont have a clue..... icon13.gif

 

Your teaching method is interesting, TDK. What are you giving the clueless student with this advice?

post #12 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

These are the kind of questions you ask when you dont have a clue..... icon13.gif


Nov 20, 2010

 

Hi tdk6:

 

There is no call for rudeness and snobberyicon13.gif.  Many people on this site have cut you slack for your use of improper English and have not made cutting remarks.  The "I'm a foreginer" excuse doesn't hack it on a website which is situated and targeted to a predominantly English (American dialect) speaking audience.

 

Think snow,

 

CP
 

post #13 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

These are the kind of questions you ask when you dont have a clue..... icon13.gif



Not the type of comment you would expect from a professional instructor. nonono2.gif

post #14 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

These are the kind of questions you ask when you dont have a clue..... icon13.gif


OK -- who are you! ... and what did you do to our usually tolerant and polite Tdk6? (Bad day?)

Lots of questions here are directed at collecting opinions, perspectives and ideas rather than seeking introductory information.

.ma
post #15 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post

 

Your teaching method is interesting, TDK. What are you giving the clueless student with this advice?



Sorry, I did not know we were simulating a teaching lesson. I thaught I was a question directed at the reader. BTW, I did not want to screw the poll up so I did not vote. Also, OP is not cluless.

post #16 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

How about rebound?  Do you deliberately work your skis to produce rebound as they decamber?  

If so, on what terrain and in what conditions?  To what purpose?  

 

How about more subtle effects of bending the skis deliberately?  


As mentioned by HardDaysNight, rebound isn't based on the bend in the ski so much as it's based on the curving path of the ski vs. the path of the upper-body when supported by a firm stance.

With that in mind consider the skier who deliberately levers forward and adds a bit of extra ILS (to pin the ski-tips against the surface) while they "release" their upper-body to cross over the skis. Here, they've created the ideal situation to produce the effect perceived as rebound. The more tension held in their legs, the more 'vault' (rebound) they get from the differing paths of feet and upper-body.
.
(I'd normally say "CM instead of "upper-body" - but in this scenario the whole of the upper-body matters as an independent segment in itself. This independent segment has its own internal CM that would work better for calculations. This is because the lower components {gear, feet, legs} are going one direction while the upper components are going a very different direction - and it's this directional difference and relative speeds that produce 'rebound'.)
.
As to when I might want to create rebound ... I think there are only two uses for rebound:
.
1) To vault the upper-body into a direction away from the surface
(which may be "up" - and/or "out" depending on the slope's angle)
2) To impart a rotational momentum change to the overall skier.

#1 is typically used to unweight the skis for easier redirection prior to re-engagement of edges.

#2 is complicated to describe mechanically, but lets the skier rapidly reposition their whole body (both F/A and Laterally) during the transition between turns. Watch a Slalom run through a series of tight gates.

This one is a good example starting at :20 seconds and again at :35 seconds.

At :47 seconds the skier starts another good example - but at :52 seconds rebound puts the skier in the back seat because their timing was off and allowed 'rebound' to direct the upper-body backward as much as laterally. (Shown by the ski tips going into the air) This error isn't so much a function of edge-angle as it is F/A pressure on the skis AND timing of passive flexion (or active retraction) to release the upper-body's path from being further influenced by the path of the skis.

I'm always amazed by the very fastest WC slalom skiers through a tight series of gates. They look like they're being tossed from trampolines on the left to trampolines on the right with most of the 'Pop' being directed laterally and very little going upward.

.ma
post #17 of 37

TDK, Wow! Perhaps LQ has a very specific reason for pointing out we don't talk much about outcomes like bending the skis.

 

Perhaps being the driver of a car verses being a passenger would communicate how I look at the question. Even going straight in the car requires the driver to hold the steering wheel in place and press down on the gas pedal. The driver's actions are what defines the outcome. I wouldn't call that passive participation, even if all they are doing is going straight.  If I'm a passenger I am a passive participant being taken for a ride. On skis are we ever that passive? Nope, even standing up requires us to do something to create that outcome.  

post #18 of 37

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post

This one is a good example starting at :20 seconds and again at :35 seconds.

At :47 seconds the skier starts another good example - but at :52 seconds rebound puts the skier in the back seat because their timing was off and allowed 'rebound' to direct the upper-body backward as much as laterally. (Shown by the ski tips going into the air) This error isn't so much a function of edge-angle as it is F/A pressure on the skis AND timing of passive flexion (or active retraction) to release the upper-body's path from being further influenced by the path of the skis.

I'm always amazed by the very fastest WC slalom skiers through a tight series of gates. They look like they're being tossed from trampolines on the left to trampolines on the right with most of the 'Pop' being directed laterally and very little going upward.

.ma


WC skiers are living on the edge. I took the liberty to make some frame captures of Felix at 0:52 seconds that MichaelA is refering to in his above posting.

Felix.jpg

 

Note that all three frames fit well within one second. IMO we are not viewing an error here but modern SL technique. Sure the ski tips came off the snow but lets look at the big pickture. As you can clearly see from the first frame the skier is in the back seat. This is not an error. This is part of the big pickture. In order to stay low and keep the CoM flowing as smoothly in the vertical plane as possible and keeping the moving mass as little as possible, like the suspension on a car limiting vertical movement to the weels, he needs to retract his leggs up. You often see people claim that WC skiers pull their feet back through out the transition. I hope you are now convinced this is not so. The skier is doing the complete opposite. Since the skis are in the air there is also nothing to pull against. Only thing he can do is flex his ancle. I hope you understand its not possible to flex a race boot very much by only lifting up your toes. No. Felix in the frame captures retracts his leggs up only to twist himself quickly sideways in frame 2 and extend his left to become outside leg completely. Note that he is totally extended. Like a flag pole. This is also part of the big pickture. By doing this he has in an instance changed a back seat position going one way to a recentered position going 45-90deg in annother. In frame 3 we are back to what we think is normal skiing and the way we pickture ourselves as we carve down double black diamonds. Nice outside ski pressure, angulation, hips 10cm off the snow, insdide leg flexed, outside leg exended, skis carving, shoulders levelled etc. When Byggmark started winning WC races back a few years everybody said he was in the back seat. The answere would be Yes and No. When there was pressure under his skis he was standing centered over his skis. When he was in the air through out the transition he was in the back seat. Skiing like this is skiing in and out of the back seat. Its constant recentering. Recovering from a back seat position. Its constant flexing and extending of the leggs. It takes muscles. Ski racers are very fit.

 

So what has this to do with actively vs passively bending the skis? Its a bit more than a bit fuzzy. When I say that carving is letting the skis turn you and not you turning the skis the general responce here is that its park and ride. We are so far off agreeing on what is active and what is passive that asking if we actively bend the skis or not that answering the question becomes impossible.

post #19 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

TDK, Wow! Perhaps LQ has a very specific reason for pointing out we don't talk much about outcomes like bending the skis.

 

Perhaps being the driver of a car verses being a passenger would communicate how I look at the question. Even going straight in the car requires the driver to hold the steering wheel in place and press down on the gas pedal. The driver's actions are what defines the outcome. I wouldn't call that passive participation, even if all they are doing is going straight.  If I'm a passenger I am a passive participant being taken for a ride. On skis are we ever that passive? Nope, even standing up requires us to do something to create that outcome.  


Exactly what I think. Except that on skis there are no passangers. There is only one skier and he is doing the steering. Even if its just tipping and balancing. 

post #20 of 37

Charlie, thanks for all the slack thats been cut in my favour over the years by you and others. Much appreciated. BillA, yes unprofessional. MichaelA, yes a bad day  smile.gif

post #21 of 37


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post

This one is a good example starting at :20 seconds and again at :35 seconds.

At :47 seconds the skier starts another good example - but at :52 seconds rebound puts the skier in the back seat because their timing was off and allowed 'rebound' to direct the upper-body backward as much as laterally. (Shown by the ski tips going into the air) This error isn't so much a function of edge-angle as it is F/A pressure on the skis AND timing of passive flexion (or active retraction) to release the upper-body's path from being further influenced by the path of the skis.

I'm always amazed by the very fastest WC slalom skiers through a tight series of gates. They look like they're being tossed from trampolines on the left to trampolines on the right with most of the 'Pop' being directed laterally and very little going upward.

.ma


WC skiers are living on the edge. I took the liberty to make some frame captures of Felix at 0:52 seconds that MichaelA is refering to in his above posting.

Felix.jpg

 

Note that all three frames fit well within one second. IMO we are not viewing an error here but modern SL technique. Sure the ski tips came off the snow but lets look at the big pickture. As you can clearly see from the first frame the skier is in the back seat. This is not an error. This is part of the big pickture. In order to stay low and keep the CoM flowing as smoothly in the vertical plane as possible and keeping the moving mass as little as possible, like the suspension on a car limiting vertical movement to the weels, he needs to retract his leggs up. You often see people claim that WC skiers pull their feet back through out the transition. I hope you are now convinced this is not so. The skier is doing the complete opposite. Since the skis are in the air there is also nothing to pull against. Only thing he can do is flex his ancle. I hope you understand its not possible to flex a race boot very much by only lifting up your toes. No. Felix in the frame captures retracts his leggs up only to twist himself quickly sideways in frame 2 and extend his left to become outside leg completely. Note that he is totally extended. Like a flag pole. This is also part of the big pickture. By doing this he has in an instance changed a back seat position going one way to a recentered position going 45-90deg in annother. In frame 3 we are back to what we think is normal skiing and the way we pickture ourselves as we carve down double black diamonds. Nice outside ski pressure, angulation, hips 10cm off the snow, insdide leg flexed, outside leg exended, skis carving, shoulders levelled etc. When Byggmark started winning WC races back a few years everybody said he was in the back seat. The answere would be Yes and No. When there was pressure under his skis he was standing centered over his skis. When he was in the air through out the transition he was in the back seat. Skiing like this is skiing in and out of the back seat. Its constant recentering. Recovering from a back seat position. Its constant flexing and extending of the leggs. It takes muscles. Ski racers are very fit.

 

So what has this to do with actively vs passively bending the skis? Its a bit more than a bit fuzzy. When I say that carving is letting the skis turn you and not you turning the skis the general responce here is that its park and ride. We are so far off agreeing on what is active and what is passive that asking if we actively bend the skis or not that answering the question becomes impossible.


A bit off topic maybe, but a good explanation here by BB of how the upper body "catches up" with the feet (the above frames are perhaps an extreme example):
http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/90579/where-do-we-want-our-hips-over-our-feet-why-do-we-want-to-move-our-hips-forward#post_1177391

post #22 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post



This one is a good example starting at :20 seconds and again at :35 seconds.

At :47 seconds the skier starts another good example - but at :52 seconds rebound puts the skier in the back seat because their timing was off and allowed 'rebound' to direct the upper-body backward as much as laterally. (Shown by the ski tips going into the air) This error isn't so much a function of edge-angle as it is F/A pressure on the skis AND timing of passive flexion (or active retraction) to release the upper-body's path from being further influenced by the path of the skis.

I'm always amazed by the very fastest WC slalom skiers through a tight series of gates. They look like they're being tossed from trampolines on the left to trampolines on the right with most of the 'Pop' being directed laterally and very little going upward.

.ma



Timing was off?  Dont think so.  Watch again, it is clear this is simple and deliberate antcipation of the forces he is about to generate when he redirects the skis.  In a blink he is back on form, not too far forward, not too far back.  Perfect.

 

If he was more in a forward in that first frame TDK posted, then he would be over the handle bars, or more likely the tips would "mush" out...kinda like "understeer" in a car.

post #23 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Perhaps LQ has a very specific reason for pointing out we don't talk much about outcomes like bending the skis.

 

Exactly.  When I'm reading in the summer about skiing, I come up against writers talking about bending the skis.  My peers on the mountain talk about it.  

 

There is clearly something important about being able to bend your skis in a controlled manner, and to know when you're doing it, and to what degree.  And why.  But there is little talk here on Epic about bending skis as far as I've been able to discern.  Perhaps I've missed it.

 

In their general publications, PSIA talks about balance, edging, rotation, and pressure, plus other things, but I remember little in the publications I've read that directly addresses bending the skis.

 

However, sites focusing on racing and mogul skiing focus a good deal of attention on bending the skis.   

 

So I just wondered what people thought here on Epic.  Thanks for all for your responses.    

post #24 of 37

LQ, Bend the ski is talking about an outcome but doesn't tell you much about how to accomplish that goal. 

post #25 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

LQ, Bend the ski is talking about an outcome but doesn't tell you much about how to accomplish that goal. 


When a ski with sidecut is on edge and pressure (generated by the dynamics of the turn) is exerted upon it, it bends. The higher the edge angle and the more pressure, the greater the bend. You don't have to "do" anything else to accomplish this "goal". Having read many of your very specific and spot-on accurate posts, I know you know this. Why the odd jargon? Ski instruction isn't management consulting smile.gif
 

post #26 of 37
For those questioning my statement that the "skier made an error" based on the turn at :52 seconds ... How is it all their other turns didn't include the same ski-tips-popping-off-the-surface if that's a desired movement pattern and result? smile.gif

I'll suggest people examine the turns just prior to :52 seconds where we can see the skier's ski tips successfully remain on the snow and no extra recovery movements are necessary nor shown.

Comparatively speaking, in the cases where our skier had everything working perfectly (timing included) their ski tips stayed on (or very close to) the snow, their upper body moved laterally and/or forward (not backward) in relation to their feet - and no 'recovery' movement pattern was needed. In such turns I'd say there were no 'errors'. But when the ski tips come way up off the snow and our skier must make a quick recovery move - I call that a timing error - even though the skier has the ability to recover quickly and gracefully. tongue.gif

Showing frames from the 'moment of problem' onward shows a nice recovery - but it's the frames just prior to the tips going in the air that reflect the moments in which our skier's timing was a tiny bit off. It sure would be neat to have high speed video of such things - especially from overhead - that we might analyze things from a 3D perspective. (...Are you reading this Universal Sports?...)

.ma
post #27 of 37

Interesting and maybe...but I dont see it that way.

 

Ski racing is not consistant.  Courses are not perfect, nor uniform.  Further ruts etc add further variability.

 

To me, this was a great example of athletic skiing.  He used what he had to to  make a big (big as in substantial direciton change) turn smoothly and efficeintly.

 

Now why was that big turn needed?  Hard to say for sure*...and not really important for us in this conversation, but what you call an error to me was deliberate, and sweet skiing.  I would use it as an example of what is possible at the top end of the sport...not an example of what to avoid.

 

It is common for courses to have a tight turn here or there, or to have a need to get back on line if you are getting late....not every turn is like that...but some are....this to me is an excellant example of how to deal with those situations with no loss in speed.

 

 

*  Cause I know you will ask....to me this big turn is needed to get set up for the next red....if you look at the video it is clear he actually leaves the gate at 52 above the rut line, and is also able to ski the next red inside of the rut line also...puts him in a sweet line for the next gates.....hence the tough gate is the 52blue to the next red, he does the power move to get set up for it....

post #28 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by HardDaysNight View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

LQ, Bend the ski is talking about an outcome but doesn't tell you much about how to accomplish that goal. 


When a ski with sidecut is on edge and pressure (generated by the dynamics of the turn) is exerted upon it, it bends. The higher the edge angle and the more pressure, the greater the bend. You don't have to "do" anything else to accomplish this "goal". Having read many of your very specific and spot-on accurate posts, I know you know this. Why the odd jargon? Ski instruction isn't management consulting smile.gif
 



icon14.gif

post #29 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post


Timing was off?  Dont think so.  Watch again, it is clear this is simple and deliberate antcipation of the forces he is about to generate when he redirects the skis.  In a blink he is back on form, not too far forward, not too far back.  Perfect.

 

If he was more in a forward in that first frame TDK posted, then he would be over the handle bars, or more likely the tips would "mush" out...kinda like "understeer" in a car.



Right on. Not all gates are set the same on a course. There might be one or two that are set so that the guys have to push them selves over the limit. Thats where the race often is won or lost. Ski racing is risk taking. And the aft balance is a gamble. They start the turns on the ball of their foot and end it on the heels. The relese is part of creating momentum and making more speed. Like in nordic skiing scating disipline.

post #30 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

Interesting and maybe...but I dont see it that way.

 

Ski racing is not consistant.  Courses are not perfect, nor uniform.  Further ruts etc add further variability.

 

To me, this was a great example of athletic skiing.  He used what he had to to  make a big (big as in substantial direciton change) turn smoothly and efficeintly.

 

Now why was that big turn needed?  Hard to say for sure*...and not really important for us in this conversation, but what you call an error to me was deliberate, and sweet skiing.  I would use it as an example of what is possible at the top end of the sport...not an example of what to avoid.

 

It is common for courses to have a tight turn here or there, or to have a need to get back on line if you are getting late....not every turn is like that...but some are....this to me is an excellant example of how to deal with those situations with no loss in speed.

 

 

*  Cause I know you will ask....to me this big turn is needed to get set up for the next red....if you look at the video it is clear he actually leaves the gate at 52 above the rut line, and is also able to ski the next red inside of the rut line also...puts him in a sweet line for the next gates.....hence the tough gate is the 52blue to the next red, he does the power move to get set up for it....


Well believe it or not, I actually agree with (nearly) all of what you say here. We're just disagreeing about our guesses over intent or accident.

We're both aware that a single turn in a video can't possibly be analyzed perfectly and it's certainly possible every aspect of what we see was intentionally done. I'm just looking for the root-cause in the case where a skier gets momentarily 'back' and I'm using the evidence that this skier didn't maintain the earlier pattern of skis remaining firmly in control against the snow for each turn.

I also took the time to review more than a dozen additional WC Slalom videos before this post and find a great deal of similarity - where a skier performs many turns in perfect control ... and suddenly a slight (or large) "wheelie" occurs with ski-tips popping up in the air followed by an out-of-character athletic movement to recover. Yes, these are very capable and athletic skiers making ideal recovery moves to stay on line - but why was that recovery move even necessary? What caused the glitch? I think it's cause primarily by release-timing being just a bit late and 'rebound' being allowed to do more than was desired.

I think many people here may have experienced the same effect while making very lively short turns (especially in gates). It's complicated to explain precisely because various body segments are moving in different directions, have different amounts of linear and angular momentum and are experiencing different rates of change for same. But if you're a moment late managing the effect we call rebound - the outcome materializes the substance of an explanation.


When LiquidFeet asks about the 'nuances' of managing the bend in our skis - I think this qualifies.

In particular, the careful management of pressure on the tip/forebody of our skis late in a rebound event. It takes precise management of pressure in the final microseconds of the short turn to properly manage the direction our upper-body is going so that we remain close to the ideal state of Lateral and F/A Balance required to properly control entry into our next turn. A fraction of a second off and we must resort to Plan-B to make that next gate.

.ma
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