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Teaching Intermediates to Parallel - Page 4

post #91 of 182
Thread Starter 

 

tdk6,

 

Hasn't Bud given a basic step by step progression in his previous post? That's how I read it:

Quote:
Given the student is matching before the fall line and does not need any remedial work I will sometimes:
1. have them stand with skis across the fall line in a good traverse position with their head downhill of their feet and consequently their hips uphill of their feet.  
2. Then have them slowly but with intent, move the hips in line with their feet and head, without allowing the head to move.  This slowly releases the edges until the platform gives way and the tips begin to slip down hill (patience, timing, commitment).  
3. This can evolve into a linked pivot slips
4. or we can add some forward momentum, being careful to maintain the good body position which allows the release to work, and add shape to the turn.  
5. With more forward momentum we can increase tipping and reduce pivoting to add more shape and grippieness to the turns.    
6.  A certain amount of counter to stretch the muscles aids the tips diving down the slope and
7. a pole plant helps even more to optimize the anticipation release.
post #92 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post

Quote:
Given the student is matching before the fall line and does not need any remedial work I will sometimes:
1. have them stand with skis across the fall line in a good traverse position with their head downhill of their feet and consequently their hips uphill of their feet.  
2. Then have them slowly but with intent, move the hips in line with their feet and head, without allowing the head to move.  This slowly releases the edges until the platform gives way and the tips begin to slip down hill (patience, timing, commitment).  
3. This can evolve into a linked pivot slips
4. or we can add some forward momentum, being careful to maintain the good body position which allows the release to work, and add shape to the turn.  
5. With more forward momentum we can increase tipping and reduce pivoting to add more shape and grippieness to the turns.    
6.  A certain amount of counter to stretch the muscles aids the tips diving down the slope and
7. a pole plant helps even more to optimize the anticipation release.



Nolo, thanks. Let me do some speculating. You talk about pivot slips. That gives me a hunch you are fueling your turn by pivotting your skis. You are also saying that counter and pole plant helps. So as you start moving your hips out over your skis to release them from their uphill edges. As your skis come flat and your hips are over your skis you rotate your femures downhill to square up with your upper body. At the same time you are using a blocking pole plant as an outrigger to lever against. These movements produce a nice and even brushed turn. Is this correct?

post #93 of 182



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

The great thing here is understanding the focus of releasing edges as the important element to parallel turning then backing up in the progression to wedge turns and instilling this movement from the very beginning.  If we can avoid teaching wedge turns and use the wedge to teach parallel turn mechanics we will increase the success of our students!

 

It seems we are all on the same page here which is great!  Would love to hear a couple others chime in here who have different opinions of good turn mechanics.



Ill chime in for your enlightment. Please tell me exactly step by step how you make a parallel turn. So that I can see what mechanics you use. And maybe learn something.


http://www.expertskier.com/members/index.html
 

post #94 of 182

TDK6,

 

I recognize at slow speeds with very little forward momentum, carving is out of the question.  Consequently turn initiations must involve some pivoting or brushing if you prefer.  Realistically beginning parallel skiers are probably not going to start out carving their parallel initiations.  Although once they can experience the release and the ease with which the skis turn, adding speed and edge angle is the next easy step in the progression.

 

I also recognize their is a whole spectrum of skill blending along the pivot to edging continuum and as speed increases we can use less pivoting and more edging moving toward TDK6's favorite end of carving.  Discovering how the tips will release down the fall line from a static position or very slow speeds gives the students the confidence to commit more and more to this movement as their speed increases.

 

I and others here recognize for the skis to change edges simultaneously the focus needs to be on releasing the downhill ski's edge (platform) as the first movement to begin a new turn.  I believe the disciples of the other system also agree to this fact but use different terminology to describe it.

 

If you take a moment to digest what we are saying here, you may see how backing up this movement into a beginning wedge turn will develop this movement and intent in beginner skiers.  Perhaps I will try to get Phil to shoot some video today if he has his camera with him and post here for discussion.


Edited by bud heishman - 12/29/10 at 9:07pm
post #95 of 182
post #96 of 182
Tdk6,

Most of your interpretation is correct - except for the following minor deviations...
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 
As your skis come flat and your hips are over your skis you rotate your femures downhill to square up with your upper body. At the same time you are using a blocking pole plant as an outrigger to lever against.

First, the legs DO pivot in the hip sockets and assist turning of the skis into the new turn's direction but there is no direct intention to 'square up' with anything. The geometric occurrence of skis and upper-body squaring up is simply an outcome of the skis turning more than the upper-body rather than any intentional alignment effort.

Second, the Pole Plant (touch) is not a Blocking Pole Plant nor is it an 'outrigger to lever against' -- in fact, the ski poles are not even necessary as using the other elements described above work just fine by themselves. No external rotary impulse is necessary to initiate nor continue a parallel turn when (properly) using the patterns described.

.ma

 

 

post #97 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

TDK6,

 

I recognize at slow speeds, very little forward momentum, carving is out of the question.  Consequently turn initiations must involve some pivoting or brushing if you prefer.  Realistically beginning parallel skiers are probably not going to start out carving their parallel initiations.  Although once they can experience the release and the ease with which the skis turn, adding speed and edge angle is the next easy step in the progression.

 

I also recognize their is a whole spectrum of skill blending along the pivot to edging continuum and as speed increases we can use less pivoting and more edging moving toward TDK6's favorite end of carving.  Discovering how the tips will release down the fall line from a static position or very slow speeds gives the students the confidence to commit more and more to this movement as their speed increases.

 

I and others here recognize for the skis to change edges simultaneously the focus needs to be on releasing the downhill ski's edge (platform) as the first movement to begin a new turn.  I believe the disciples of the other system also agree to this fact but use different terminology to describe it.

 

If you take a moment to digest what we are saying here, you may see how backing up this movement into a beginning wedge turn will develop this movement and intent in beginner skiers.  Perhaps I will try to get Phil to shoot some video today if he has his camera with him and post here for discussion.



I have been reading a PSIA manual all evening. Interesting. They give you 3 teaching pathwahys: wedge path, DTP path and a hybrid path. I would deffinetly be using the wedge pathway but the hybrid one does not sound so bad since you can use elements from the wedge pahtway when needed. Very good reading BTW. Dont remember who pointed me there tonight but thanks if you are reading.

 

What I found out was that all turns build on inside ski tipping. However, I still dont believe in the proposed wedging technique where you out of a traverse position tip your downhill ski by inverting it in the direction of its LTE by external rotation of your inside femure in order to flatten your inside ski and bring your hip into the turn. What that does IMO is release the ski from its edge, shifts your weight onto that ski and makes you slide down the hill. Since your uphill ski is on its BTE it holds and starts to run along its turn shape edge and you drift into a wider wedge. But no turning. What I am missing here is pressure skills and rotation skills. There needs to be established outside ski pressure and active rotation of the outside ski. The exact same applies to parallel turns with the tiny exception that your outside ski edge is not engaged in a brush. You need to do that first.

 

Im deffinetly not a 100% carving type of guy. Im a true spokesman for non carved turns as well. I like to ski bumps, back country and offpist where there is a need for a dynamic blend of edging, rotary and pressure.

post #98 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post

Tdk6,

Most of your interpretation is correct - except for the following minor deviations...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 

As your skis come flat and your hips are over your skis you rotate your femures downhill to square up with your upper body. At the same time you are using a blocking pole plant as an outrigger to lever against.



First, the legs DO pivot in the hip sockets and assist turning of the skis into the new turn's direction but there is no direct intention to 'square up' with anything. The geometric occurrence of skis and upper-body squaring up is simply an outcome of the skis turning more than the upper-body rather than any intentional alignment effort.

Second, the Pole Plant (touch) is not a Blocking Pole Plant nor is it an 'outrigger to lever against' -- in fact, the ski poles are not even necessary as using the other elements described above work just fine by themselves. No external rotary impulse is necessary to initiate nor continue a parallel turn when (properly) using the patterns described.

.ma

 

 

 

Square up

I was only using that word to describe how the skis are being pivotted arround to neutral. From there on it would be upper body counter towards the outside of the turn or active femure rotation of the legs into the turn. First the legs unwind and square up and then you actively rotate them.

 

 

Pole Plant
Well this is not what the PSIA manual says about Bullfighting Turns. Here:

Begin standing with the skis across the slope, the poles are placed directly

downhill from the boots. A firm pole placement creates support.  

 

It will not work if you dont use your pole(s). Ive tried. Many times. And I have never seen a video of it so I must make the conclusion that it is impossible.

post #99 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 
Well this is not what the PSIA manual says about Bullfighting Turns. Here:

Begin standing with the skis across the slope, the poles are placed directly

downhill from the boots. A firm pole placement creates support.  

 

It will not work if you dont use your pole(s). Ive tried. Many times. And I have never seen a video of it so I must make the conclusion that it is impossible.


Heh, heh, heh - nice try tdk6! biggrin.gif

Nope, a "Bullfighting Turn" is a very specific type of STATIC (in-place) turn that has nothing whatsoever to do with normal in-motion skiing (no more than a "Kick Turn" does).

A Bullfighting Turn is merely an exercise for going from facing across the hill one way, to facing across the hill the other way. It's executed from a Static location (meaning they are NOT sliding anywhere - which is what this turn is designed to prevent).

The idea behind the Bullfighter Turn is to hold the skier in place (using both ski poles planted downhill) while they systematically "step" around the firmly planted pole tips. The firmly planted poles block the skier from sliding forward (downhill) while they migrate from facing one way across the hill to facing the other way across the hill.


Now, aside from your clever (yes, even humorous wink.gif ) attempt to introduce an unrelated drill as evidence that a pole plant is required for normal parallel turns.... I think I've just realized what is going wrong with your own experiments (and perception) based on your written descriptions just above.

I've no time to respond tonight but will try to put a drawing together that might help tomorrow. In the meantime, consider a skier sliding straight forward on a totally "flat" snow surface in a typical 20-degree Wedge formation (10-degrees toes-in for each ski).

Let's assume our skier's CM is balanced directly over the middle of their feet and that each ski is tipped onto its BTE exactly 10-degrees from 'flat'.
Now, visualize the direction and magnitude of friction forces under each ski. Everything should be even at this point.

Now what if the tipping-angle of the LEFT ski is reduced to only 5-degrees (still engaged, but now at 5-degrees of edge-angle instead of 10-degrees)? For the sake of this Thought Experiment let's leave the CM exactly where it started (directly between the feet) and imagine our skier simply tilted the left foot/boot to reduce the angle of that ski.

1) Consider exactly where on each ski the skier's Center of Mass is directed (tips are longer than tails).
2) Consider the 'drag' across the longer forebody of the ski (in front of the CM) as compared to the 'drag' across the shorter tail (behind the CM).
3) Now add in the effect of each ski's sidecut as each ski skids forward at a 'steering angle' of 10 degrees with the left ski tipped only 5-degrees.

Does that help?

.ma
post #100 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Quote:

What I found out was that all turns build on inside ski tipping. However, I still dont believe in the proposed wedging technique where you out of a traverse position tip your downhill ski by inverting it in the direction of its LTE by external rotation of your inside femure in order to flatten your inside ski and bring your hip into the turn. What that does IMO is release the ski from its edge, shifts your weight onto that ski and makes you slide down the hill. Since your uphill ski is on its BTE it holds and starts to run along its turn shape edge and you drift into a wider wedge. But no turning. What I am missing here is pressure skills and rotation skills. There needs to be established outside ski pressure and active rotation of the outside ski. The exact same applies to parallel turns with the tiny exception that your outside ski edge is not engaged in a brush. You need to do that first.


Herein lies the answer to yours and Rick's dilemma with release movement in a wedge.  If you use a gliding wedge, a very narrow wedge, not what you demonstrate in any of your wedge turn videos, and you have some forward momentum, and you release the edge without moving your weight onto it but rather treat the release almost like taking a step or gait, you will turn quite nicely.  However if you are in a wider larger angle snowplow and you flatten the ski keeping your weight over it, the outcome you describe will prevail.  The funny thing is I have never had a student experience your outcome?  I wonder why?

 

 

Oh, and my "drill" above where I cited using a pole plant to enhance the anticipation release, was just that, a drill rather than a way to ski.  A pole plant is not necessary to initiate parallel turns but it can help in subplaning conditions (to use a windsurfing term) where there is not enough forward momentum to just tip and carve (ie: planing conditions) a good pole plant can aid in pulling the tips into the fall line as the edge grip is released.  I know you are a windsurfer and I believe you understand to turn a board in subplaning conditions we step on the outside rail to turn and in planing conditions we step on the inside rail to turn.  This is a similar movement in skiing don't you think?  In planing conditions or carving conditions the pole plant becomes simply an aid to balance as the edge change occurs rather than an anchor to stabilize the upper body as in subcarving conditions.

 

To the blue bolded quote: Again realize the weight shift to the outside turning ski occurs simultaneously with the release of the inside ski edge.  It is coincidental with the edge release and therefore passive yet it does occur.  You seem to resist the fact that weight can and does shift to the outside ski immediately upon edge release unless you do something else to counter this happening like deliberately shifting your weight over the released ski.  Another way to think about it is that as soon as you release the deflection from the downhill ski the steering angle of the uphill ski becomes dominant and deflects the skier toward the fall line.


Edited by bud heishman - 12/28/10 at 10:37pm
post #101 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud Heishman 
To the blue bolded quote: Again realize the weight shift to the [new] outside turning ski occurs simultaneously with the release of the inside ski edge. It is coincidental with the edge release and therefore passive yet it does occur. You seem to resist the fact that weight can and does shift to the outside ski immediately upon edge release unless you do something else to counter this happening like deliberately shifting your weight over the released ski. Another way to think about it is that as soon as you release the deflection from the downhill ski the steering angle of the uphill ski becomes dominant and deflects the skier toward the fall line.

I'd like to rephrase this idea in another context.

In a straight run on very flat terrain using a Wedge formation, pressure is essentially equal against both skis since both skis are at the same edge-angle and rotated across the direction of travel to the same degree.

When the edge-angle of the old outside-ski is reduced, pressure against that ski is also reduced. There is no active weight shift executed by the skier moving any body parts one way or another... Instead, the skier simply feels more pressure develop against the new outside-ski because the new outside-ski becomes dominant at 'pushing' the skier into the new turn's direction.

We humans perceive this as a weight shift to the outside-foot even though we didn't move a single body part toward that side.

An accurate analogy would be if you were standing balanced in a bus facing straight ahead (forward) and you felt equal 'weight' on both feet. Should the bus start turning to the left, some extra weight would shift over onto your right foot with no deliberate weight migration action on your part (a passive weight transfer).

.ma

 

 

post #102 of 182

Michael, I think that the active/passive weight transfer consept is clear to all of us. Its clear that with increasing speed the passive weight transfer is enhansed. And that a more narrow wedge makes the impact of weight transfer more sensitive. Both these mentioned conditions are critical for the passive weight transfer (PWT) consept. However, with the AWT consept speed and wedge size work the same way. If you are skiing faster less weight transfer is required in order for sufficient turn forces to start building for intended deflection of direction. Same applies to the wedge size. When you are using the AWT method at sufficient speeds, matching the speeds required for the PWT method, no upper body movement in the direction of the outside ski is needed. You simply relax your inside foot and press with your outside foot.

 

BTW, have you ever tried to make the buss turn by manipulating your weight distribution? Or better yet a train wink.gif.

 

A wedging drill that Ive learned back in the 70s is to release the old outside ski at the end of the turn by lifting the tip up in the air. The tail stays on the snow. If I wedge in a very narrow wedge I can easily establish enough outside ski pressure to start a turn very close to a parallel turn. But this is also an AWT method since I actively shift weight out over the outside ski by picing the inside ski up in the air. I dont like the sequential nature of this though since I aim for two footed skiing.

 

Bud, I love your windsurfing analogy. I actually rediscovered the non planing turn technique lately as I bought a phat board biggrin.gif. Acutally a wide board. And it floats like an old Mistral div. 1. Anyway, its exactly as you explain, step on the left edge to turn right and vice versa. Kind of like wedging duck.gif

 

Boyz, dont be mad at me for being such an idiot.

post #103 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post

An accurate analogy would be if you were standing balanced in a bus facing straight ahead (forward) and you felt equal 'weight' on both feet. Should the bus start turning to the left, some extra weight would shift over onto your right foot with no deliberate weight migration action on your part (a passive weight transfer).

.ma

 

 


and if the bus is moving faster, you will move inside the turn to keep your balance.

post #104 of 182

A weight shift can be "passive" meaning it happened because of an unrelated movement, or "active" or intentional meaning it occurred with the intent to do so.  Either way a weight shift occurs!

 

I would also rather not rephrase the deflection to pressure in my description because deflection is a broader term encompassing pressure, edge grip, and/or steering angle.  Deflection is what wants to send us on a tangent.  I can shift more weight or pressure to one ski in a wedge yet overcome that pressure by increasing the edge angle on the opposite side to negate or overcome the dominant pressure side, resulting in more deflection on the edged side which will send me on a tangent opposite the more weighted side.

post #105 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Michael, I think that the active/passive weight transfer consept is clear to all of us. Its clear that with increasing speed the passive weight transfer is enhansed. And that a more narrow wedge makes the impact of weight transfer more sensitive. Both these mentioned conditions are critical for the passive weight transfer (PWT) consept. However, with the AWT consept speed and wedge size work the same way. If you are skiing faster less weight transfer is required in order for sufficient turn forces to start building for intended deflection of direction. Same applies to the wedge size. When you are using the AWT method at sufficient speeds, matching the speeds required for the PWT method, no upper body movement in the direction of the outside ski is needed. You simply relax your inside foot and press with your outside foot.

 

 


poppycock!

 

This is only accurate in your mind my friend, not mine!  PWT requires  much less effort than AWT! and does not need speed to work.  Slight forward movement does aid the deflection but no more or less true than a AWT.  This is evidenced in one of your wedge turn videos where you actually came to a stop while completing one of your turns and had to take a few baby steps to point your wedge more into the fall line.

 

I would be very interested to hear how you introduce parallel turning to a student of yours who has learned the AWT wedge turning method from you?

post #106 of 182



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Michael, I think that the active/passive weight transfer consept is clear to all of us. Its clear that with increasing speed the passive weight transfer is enhansed. And that a more narrow wedge makes the impact of weight transfer more sensitive. Both these mentioned conditions are critical for the passive weight transfer (PWT) consept. However, with the AWT consept speed and wedge size work the same way. If you are skiing faster less weight transfer is required in order for sufficient turn forces to start building for intended deflection of direction. Same applies to the wedge size. When you are using the AWT method at sufficient speeds, matching the speeds required for the PWT method, no upper body movement in the direction of the outside ski is needed. You simply relax your inside foot and press with your outside foot.

 

 


poppycock!

 

This is only accurate in your mind my friend, not mine!  PWT requires  much less effort than AWT! and does not need speed to work.  Slight forward movement does aid the deflection but no more or less true than a AWT.  This is evidenced in one of your wedge turn videos where you actually came to a stop while completing one of your turns and had to take a few baby steps to point your wedge more into the fall line.

 

I would be very interested to hear how you introduce parallel turning to a student of yours who has learned the AWT wedge turning method from you?


Bud, you lost me here. Could you please elaborate on how you can passively transfer weight without speed?
 

post #107 of 182

As I said, forward momentum is helpful, speed (as described by TDK6) is not necessary.  I wouldn't characterize one mile per hour as speed yet this offers sufficient forward momentum to aid turning.

 

Let's try to get back to the OP and teaching intermediates to parallel turn!smile.gif

post #108 of 182

Been out and about playing but I have a few minutes today and wanted to chime in about the teaching parallel turns. To be honest even through cert 2 we see slight edge release and re-engagement issues. Even at speed. So all this talk about recreational intermediates having a slight wedged turn entry seems very valid and is really an assumed in my book. I personally have watched many Cert 3 coaches still using a slightly sequential edge release. That's how pervasive the move is and why so many folks try to avoid teaching the wedge in the first place. Funny thing though, it's a naturally occuring outcome, especially at very slow speeds on shallow terrain. You're free to disagree but before you do consider ther following...

An internal training program in Aspen addressed this spontaneous wedge issue and it became part of the standard training they did in new hire training. I could go on about the whose who in that school and how the top pros there struggled with the exercise but suffice it to say with hundreds of examiner level pros and thirtysomething Demo team pros, and many top level racers from around the world they have a very, very talented staff. They all struggled with making parallel turns using passive and active weight transfers at such a slow speed.

The conclusion they reached is that weight plays a role in how easily a ski will pivot (yes in a beginning parallel class the ski is pivotting), and so does the anatomy of the leg. Abduction and lateral rotation of the leg incorporates the outside muscles of the leg and these muscles are inherently weaker than the muscle used to adduct and medially rotate the leg. The net result is turning the new outside ski is easier when the ski is not bearing as much weight and the muscles used to turn that ski inward are inherently stronger. So in the passive weight transfer mode a naturally occuring wedge is going to occur. Even in the active weight transfer the slight wedge seems to occur but for a different reason. It has more to do with the positions of the pelvis, torso and arms that naturally occur when a stepping and medial rotation of the new outside leg happens. In other words to maintain balance on the outside leg our body articulates to gain one footed balance before the new turn can even start. From there the leg can be medially rotated but without the additional contact point of the second foot, or a planted pole, the timing and parallelness of the skis is a very difficult task, even for world class skiers. So as Gravity draws us into the turn is that enough to turn the whole system without something like an abstem? Perhaps but again not very likely in a wedge to parallel class.

 

So here my point, If a parallel turn at such a slow speed is so hard for top pros, why in the world would we suggest it is more doable for the average lower intermediate skier like we see in a typical wedge to parallel class? I'm a little grumpy today but c'mon guys enough is enough, a wedge entry is normal below a certain speed and at that low speed it's almost impossible to eliminate from a skier's movements no matter how good they are.


Edited by justanotherskipro - 12/29/10 at 1:47pm
post #109 of 182

quite right ski pro. This also supports the lesson plan i made in the last two post on this thread about that female skier clip.

post #110 of 182

JASP,

 

I don't think anyone here would disagree with your observations?  

 

I am not as critical of skiers who show a slight sequential movement at edge change as I am for the ones that lack a fluid transition and/or show braking movements.  This has been and is where I focus my attention in lessons.  As I said in a very early post, I don't really "introduce parallel turns" rather improve various skills that will improve transitions.

post #111 of 182

I consider myself an intermediate skier (you may disagree after seeing my video) and find this thread and all of the comments here to be so helpful. 

 

I read this thread with great interest because it addresses a problem I know I have with my skiing.  I've never thought of it as a wedge turn as I wasn't taught to ski using the wedge.  I skied 4 days in college 17 years ago and was taught matching, skidded parallel turns from the get go.  When I started back skiing in 2008 and had a few lessons with fellow bear Ron White, he basically just took me from where I was and began teaching me edging techniques.  The video posted below was after skiing with Weems in private lessons for 3 days last year at Snowmass (don't blame Weems for my poor skiing, fortunately for me, he takes all levels of skiers).  

 

Before I studied the video in detail, I thought of my problem as just having my skis too wide and not close enough together.  I know that with carving turns, the skis should not be pegged together, but rather shoulder width or so.  But I could feel and see while skiing that my skis were separating much too much.  When I studied the video, I could easily tell that my problem was that I was not releasing the old outside ski before engaging the new outside ski.  To do this, my skis had to come apart as my movements created convergence of the skis which required me to make room for all of this. 

 

I post my video for two reasons - one to get everyone's advice on a gameplan this season for personal improvement, but also because I think it may be the classic example of the issue this thread is addressing (If I'm off on this, I invite nolo and the other mods to move my post to a separate movement analysis thread).  First a word about the quality - my wife shot it and true to form, it is terribly shaky.  Sorry about that.  The only way to get anything useful out of it is to watch it literally hitting the play/pause button every second to watch it in frame by frame fashion.  All of that said, here goes: 

 

At the 0:14 mark, there is a clear wedge or converging skis that emerge.  And it is not because I am trying to create a wedge or even scrub speed in my mind, but it because I am not comfortable releasing the old outside edge, letting go of the control, and falling into the new turn.  I am engaging the edge of my new outside ski before letting go of the old one.  A second or two later at the 0:15/0:16 mark (and actually earlier in the 0:14 mark) in the middle part of the "C," I'm in position that looks reasonably good to my untrained eyes - both skis edged, parallel, some flexion/extension happening, maybe even a little angulation.  Then it all goes to crap at the transition.

 

From what I can see in the video and from reading here and elsewhere, here's my starting checklist to work on:

+Allow a time for transition in my turns where both skis are flat and neither are edged (realizing this will be a very short period of time)

+Initiate the new turn with the LTE of the new inside (old outside) ski (I worry about the problem described by others here of catching an edge and falling.  Seems like when I've tried to think about this before, I've almost fallen.  Weems had me pointing my inside knee to initiate the new turn which I obviously wasn't doing in the clip above.)

+Generally I need to be more patient, allowing the old turn to finish followed by a smooth transition rather than cranking the BTE into the new turn

 

Please correct/modify/add to the above checklist.  Again, I apologize to nolo if this is a highjack of his thread.  Hopefully this is the "practicum" or application portionsmile.gif of the thread.  I was going to be skiing with Weems again this year, but since he is out for the season he is lining up someone else (hopefully Squatty) for my wife and me to ski with.

 

Thanks,

Cliff

post #112 of 182
Thread Starter 

Cliff, I think your post is perfect for this thread. I am very impressed with the accuracy of the movement analysis. You really have a good grasp on what you need to be doing. I'm a great believer in sticking to the one thing, and I think you're right on: the width of your stance is seriously limiting your movement options, particularly releasing the old outside ski.

 

(You're gonna love Squatty. He's a very special treat.)

post #113 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post

Cliff, I think your post is perfect for this thread. I am very impressed with the accuracy of the movement analysis. You really have a good grasp on what you need to be doing. I'm a great believer in sticking to the one thing, and I think you're right on: the width of your stance is seriously limiting your movement options, particularly releasing the old outside ski.

 

(You're gonna love Squatty. He's a very special treat.)
 

Glad you approve!smile.gif  And thanks for the help.  Let me ask you this - a chicken and the egg kind of question.  Is my wide stance causing the edge change problems or are my edge change problems causing the wide stance?  I had kind of concluded that it was the former since my too wide stance seems to mainly show up at the transition/edge change.  From your post, maybe you are thinking the opposite is true?  Is my stance too wide throughout or mainly just in the transition time?

 

(I hope Weems is able to work it out so we can ski with Squatty.  He was checking his schedule for us.  I will say this, it is going to be really hard if not impossible to top the 3 days we skied with Weems last year.  By far, the best 3 days I've ever had on snow.)

post #114 of 182
Thread Starter 

I think your wide stance is making it hard for you to tip to the LTE and release the old turn. Stand up and put your feet together. Now step your feet apart by increments until you feel like your feet are tipping to the inside edges. Notice how your legs form the two uprights of an A? Now, try to tip one of your feet to its outside edge. Did you have to move your (upper) body to do so?

 

Now, walk your feet back until you feel like your feet are flat on the floor. Now tip one foot to the outside. Easy? No upper body involvement necessary? That's where your stance should be (feet/skis flat against the snow) to move each leg independently of the upper body.

 

The difference between the two stances is where the hips are relative to the feet--if the hips are inside the feet, you will have to move unibody; if the hips are over the feet, you can move the legs independently of each other and the upper body.

 

Also, you are carrying enough weight on the inside ski to indicate that you aren't yet able to balance on the outside ski. I see the ability to stand on one foot as the chief prerequisite to advancing to parallel turns. 

 

Aspen has many great instructors. Weems and Squatty are 1 and 2 in my book.  


Edited by nolo - 12/30/10 at 8:05am
post #115 of 182

Getting comfortable with allowing your upper body to tip across your skis is a psychological hurdle many struggle with when transitioning from a wide stance or a sequential edge change. Your wide stance effectively bypasses this movement so that your center of mass is always inside your base of support.  You must take the plunge to get to a more parallel transition, meaning your feet remain parallel and closer together as described by nolo and you move your body from the inside of one turn, over your feet to the inside of the new turn without moving your feet.  Begin on comfortable terrain and snow conditions and keep your turns closer to the fall line so the transitions require less movement to get from one side to the other.

 

tip: relaxation is the key! I have found after a nice glass of wine or two at lunch, taking the psychological risk of allowing your feet to move out from under your hips becomes easier!

disclaimer:  you never heard this from me! I am just sayin!  relax and trust that your skis will come back to you as the turn develops.

 

You must get comfortable at edge change with your ski tips heading off at a slight tangent to the direction the rest of your mass is heading and you will discover parallel transitions and a new found joy of balancing on your edges!

 

Good luck and come to ESA Aspen!  I will bet in the four days you will have it down! 

post #116 of 182

Great coaching here guys!  I just hope my neighbors couldn't see in as I was following nolo's instructions. smile.gif 

 

What y'all are saying makes total sense.  After I watched the video last year at Snowmass, I tried to work on keeping my skis closer together and allowing my feet to work away from my center of mass.  So, I've felt a little bit of the feeling Bud is describing - though I still have a long way to go.

 

I will definitely follow Bud's instructions!  Are there any drills y'all can think of that would promote and encourage a narrower stance and working my feet out from my hips?

 

I looked at coming to ESA Aspen this year, but I have a board meeting at work that I must attend that falls smack dab in the middle of this year's ESA Aspen.  Instead, I'm taking a quick 3 ski day guys' trip to Steamboat the first week of February.  Do y'all know any good instructors there?  I'm also going to need some boot work done there if y'all know any good boot fitters there.

 

Squatty was booked so Weems set us up with Schanzy (Jim Schanzenbaker) - gotta love ski instructor nick names!  I'm sure he will be great.

 

Thanks again for the help here.  I'm excited about the gameplan for improvement I'm developing for this season.  That is really what I think I love most about skiing - the aspect of improving and the sense of accomplishment that comes with it. 

post #117 of 182

Cliff, when you worked with Weems, did he focus on turn shape with you at all?  Specifically, being more patient getting from the start of your turn to the falline?  If he did, return to that when you're out training.  That alone could help clean up your transitions tremendously.  That alone could set you on the road to shedding that stem transition you have.  You can't stem, and have a patient initiation, and long radius top of the turn, all at the same time.  The stem automatically shortens the top of the turn.  To make the top of your turn long and patient, you have to abandon the stem.  

 

Make sense?  

post #118 of 182


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

Cliff, when you worked with Weems, did he focus on turn shape with you at all?  Specifically, being more patient getting from the start of your turn to the falline?  If he did, return to that when you're out training.  That alone could help clean up your transitions tremendously.  That alone could set you on the road to shedding that stem transition you have.  You can't stem, and have a patient initiation, and long radius top of the turn, all at the same time.  The stem automatically shortens the top of the turn.  To make the top of your turn long and patient, you have to abandon the stem.  

 

Make sense?  

Makes perfect sense.  Weems absolutely did work with me on that.  Obviously I wasn't the best student in that regard.   I went back and watched the video with what you said in mind, and boy can I see how not round my turns are at the top of the C.  I've got half a C (the lower part), followed by an almost straight diagonal where the top of the next C should be.

 

Thanks, Rick, for another great way to think about adding patience and actually having a transition.  Turn shape - sounds simple enough.  Now if I can only execute it.

 

I can see where all of this advice goes together so nicely and hits on different aspects of what is required to perform the move properly - preparation and setup by having a good stance that is not too wide which will physically allow my body to make the needed movements, mental/psychological aspects because part of the movement feels like I'm letting go of control, the technical aspects of where my center of mass is relative to my skis, etc., and finally the big picture view of round turns.  That's hitting squarely on 3 corners of Weems' Sports Diamond - Power, Will, and Purpose.  

 

Thanks so much to everyone!  My excitement to get out there is growing!!

post #119 of 182
Thread Starter 

You are what we call a Dream Student, Cliff. Enjoy the ride!

post #120 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post

You are what we call a Dream Student, Cliff. Enjoy the ride!


You are too kind.  I'm sure Weems would tell you otherwise after skiing with me for 3 days.

 

I do enjoy learning about the technical aspects of skiing to try and have a better understanding of what I am trying to do out there.  My wife on the other hand doesn't want to be bothered by these type discussions and just wants to see it, feel it, and experience it.  Weems did a beautiful job of relating to her and teaching her pretty much 100% on the feel side of things.  Then Weems and I would have these technical discussions on the lift, and she would just look at the pretty mountains and enjoy the ride.

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