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Notes on Intervals - Page 2

post #31 of 39



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by evaino View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by gramboh View Post

evaino, are you familiar with Dan John's work? Popular S&C coach who also favours front squats over back squats, especially for teaching large groups of people. He says the front squat is "self correcting", as you can't get away with ugly lumbar flexion good mornings.

 

Personally, I think back squats are fine with good form, which is the real challenge of that exercise. Front squats are good, but many people have trouble going heavy on them because they don't like the bar against their throat. I hate front squatting more than 3 heavy reps for that reason. Also much less posterior chain activation in the front squat, which is a problem for desk jockeys.


 

Yes I am, and I'm a fan of his. Smart guy. 

 

I haven't seen the EMG results on the difference in posterior chain recruitment for front vs back squats, but you may be right that there is more for the back squat. But as long as your front squat is done properly, you're still getting glute and hamstring contribution. I think it's important to remember that a squat is a knee-dominant exercise. I don't program squats to hit the posterior chain. That's what deadlift variations are for - they are the hip-dominant exercises, which is where you get the real posterior chain effect.

 

Actuallyl I just found an interesting article by John Berardi that reviews an EMG study comparing the two squats. If you know of Dan John, I'm guessing you probably also know of Berardi. He's more known for nutrition, but he does have a phd in exercise physiology! http://www.precisionnutrition.com/research-review-front-or-back-squats. One conclusion: "front squatting less weight results in the same activation as back squatting more weight". But it did note slightly less hamstring activity in the front vs back squat.

 

I find bar position can get troublesome for both front and back squats. I'm not really sure which is worse. I developed some neck problems a few years ago that I think is related to bar position on the back squat. 

 

While I like heavy lifting, I think that there is a point at which we're not really getting much more transferable strength benefit when we go heavier, but we significantly increase the injury risk. This is a theory that I've been contemplating for several years. Basically: what is the increased performance transfer of squatting 500# over 400#? I picked those numbers out of a hat, but my point is that I think there's a threshold at which we are building more pure strength by lifting heavier, but it is not really helping us in any way. I think the location of this threshold will depend largely on what activities each person does. So for a football lineman, that threshold is probably going to be pretty high. Ditto for a strongman. But for a skier? Are we ever going to notice the difference? 

 

At this point, I don't know where that threshold should lie, but I think it exists. Just a thought though. And I should clarify that I'm not advocating using tiny little weights! I think people should lift heavy metal. Just not sure they should be lifting more than 200-300 lbs is really what I'm getting at. 

 

Elsbeth



Thanks for the link, I'm familiar with Berardi but have not seen this study before. With back squats, I personally have success results wise with a more hip dominant movement. Not a complete powerlifter style, but definitely a low-bar position sit-back type of squat. My best back squat is 1.4x my best front squat, so I'd argue it's possible for the back squat to have advantages over the front, but as you point it, it depends on the goals of training, lifter's experience, risk tollerance to want to lift to max etc. I think if you do both front squats and hip dominant back squats you get the best of both worlds. It's minutia really, squatting of any type is better than not squatting.

 

Also a good point on diminishing returns. For skiing, there is probably no benefit to going much over 2X BW in a back squat, at that point most people are going to have to specialize their training to the point where recovering is going to impact ski performance, and also the risk of injury is there, especially so for racers or other competitive athletes. There was a Dan John interview with Mark Rippetoe (on startingstrength.com) where they discuss this very issue, how strong is strong enough for athletes who are not in strength sports. I do think that people should be able to squat at least their bodyweight, and that shouldn't require years of training to get there.

 

I'm a recreational skier, but it is my primary athletic passion. I also really enjoy training. I enjoy strength training more than endurance and conditioning work, but realize that further strength is not going to help me the way condition & endurance gains will, so I'm happy to work on those areas now. I still would like to actually back squat 2X BW, getting close, maybe I'll just lose weight instead :).

 

Bottom line, for folks looking to improve general fitness for skiing and life, increasing mobility to be able to get their body into a full squat position (without weight) without falling over is going to put them leaps and bounds above the general North American public. Go on from there and you are laughing.


Edited by gramboh - 11/16/10 at 4:58pm
post #32 of 39
Thread Starter 

Today I attempted the intervals again. 45 seconds @ 163 bpm. Took upwards to 4 minutes to bring myself down to 126 bpm. Managed to get 5 reps out of myself before reaching exaustion.

post #33 of 39

Here's some heavy lifting.  Some might thing too heavy.  This is typical for our gym.  Not quite that stressed for me.

 

http://www.kyte.tv/ch/albany-crossfit/p=ls&c=336249

 

And a fellow with chicken legs - me aka Buzz.  at 215#

 

 

http://www.kyte.tv/ch/albany-crossfit/buzz/p=ls&c=336249&s=1036122&l=2035

post #34 of 39
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post

 

And a fellow with chicken legs - me aka Buzz.  at 215#

 

 

http://www.kyte.tv/ch/albany-crossfit/buzz/p=ls&c=336249&s=1036122&l=2035


Impressive, and good form - until the end that is.  Your pelvis tucks under. That's not good for someone with degenerating discs and mild arthritis. You're playing with fire.

 

Sorry to be so blunt, but I would be remiss not to say something.

 

Elsbeth 

post #35 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by evaino View Post

Sorry to be so blunt, but I would be remiss not to say something.

 

Elsbeth 



Blunt's fine.  Are you saying "butt wink"?

 

How about the lady.  She is lifting a lot - too much??  She is in great shape and is a fire breather!

post #36 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post

Blunt's fine.  Are you saying "butt wink"?

 

How about the lady.  She is lifting a lot - too much??  She is in great shape and is a fire breather!


I've never thought of it as a "butt wink". just watch and the end - you go into a posterior pelvic tilt. For a body weight squat, it's not a big deal. For a heavy squat, it's not good.  It's down at the end, so you could probably undo it with some mobility work, and in the meantime, squat to a box that is placed at a height just above where it starts to tuck. Although I'm not sure you should be doing heavy squats at all with your back. There are a lot of great exercises out there. And the reality is that an exercise that is really good for one person, may not be good for another. I would argue that heavy bilateral squats are not good for you. 

 

That's a strong woman, no question, but again - personally I wouldn't let someone lift heavy with that form. She sets up in perfect position. But the first thing she does is flex her spine. There is controversy about whether repeated unweighted back flexion is bad (I'm of the opinion that it's bad), but to my knowledge, there's no controversy about whether loaded flexion is bad: it just is. For each rep she flexes her lumbar spine as she starts to lift. Very, very dangerous for the back. The interesting thing is that it's only a minor technique flaw - or possibly a mobility problem, but it's putting her in dangerous territory. I wonder if she needs additional glute work. Even at the end you can see that she is pulling with her back, vs driving with her hips.

 

Don't get me wrong - 245 is impressive. But to me the risk of 245 with rounded back is high, and I'm not sure the performance benefit is any higher than it would be if she was "only" doing 200. But at 200, she'd probably have better form.  

 

Elsbeth

post #37 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by evaino View Post




... personally I wouldn't let someone lift heavy with that form. She sets up in perfect position. But the first thing she does is flex her spine. T



I figured that you would see it that way.  In theory she is lifting too much.  The lumbar curve must be maintained or risk injury.  We lift heavy so we see a lot of that, but hopefully not from me.  When ever you do higher reps the form seems to fall off.  Gotta watch out for that.

 

For me on the back squat, I am keeping the weight low.  I get a big bang for the buck on this lift.  I like the front squat and it yields benefit, but that's one lift where poor form can lead to trouble for me.

post #38 of 39

I am a certified trainer, ex-soccer player, ex-mt.bike racer, ex-water skier, and a couple more exs in there, all for the sake of skiing.

Paul Jones is spot-on when he says" most peeps go with what works for them". This has been my matra for years, I'm 55. While I have one bad rotator and bone spurs in the other shoulder from another ski crash, the knees have for most part held up....rt. knee has some bone-to-bone in my lock and load ski stance. So my workouts in the off-season are low impact and maintenance only.

 

May I recommend a good mt. bike, low joint impact when used properly.

I do interval running, 1-minute on, 1-minute off, this can be adjusted to achieve your desired results.

BOX JUMPING!!! This is a total body workout. It can be modified to just jumping back and forth over a broomstick handle for folks with disc issues. Simulates skiing like a skiers edge machine, whcih a had for years, but is really just a bit too static like most workout equipment.

Single leg squats, wall 'chairs', vertical squat jumping with a ball, is a little less intense.

Jumping is one of the few excercises that actually simulates leg retraction, the amount of retraction can be varied to your fitness level.

My Klein is the only machine I use in my workout, I have no routine, I mix it up. Bikes are great for maintaining as well. You can't beat your bod all the time it needs some kind of rest periods.

 

Buddah, skiing for 3-4 hrs and taking a break isn't a bad thing, just don't stop so long that your muscles think it's over. Drink your water, eat your pizza, take your IBUs and take what energy tabs you prefer and get back out there.

 

I've been using Lance Armstrong's FRS products for natural energy for three years now, plus recovery drinks immediatley after skiing and before apres-ski. Not to mention hot tubs after and before skiing. Yep, hot tubs aren't just for apres-ski, it's a great wake-up call before I suit up. Helps with my rt. knee's bone-on-bone problem having the muscles ready to go.

 

Last tidbit for everyone. If you have ever seen racers before a race, they are doing leg swings to loosen up their hip flexers and lower abdominal muscles, which are attached to your back in the pelvic area.

 

Ski like Seth, be strong and Njoy!!!MyPicturesfromOLDComputer007.jpg

 

post #39 of 39

Article about "butt wink" in squatting: http://www.70sbig.com/?p=2978

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