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# How many ways are there to start a turn? - Page 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt

Quote:

Interesting ideas...but no.

A key concept in skiing is that the skis turn the skier.

At the apex, as you say lots of "turning" is occouring...why do you beleive that the steering angle is zero?  In a purley carved turn, are you suggesting the ski ceases to be bent at apex?  Surely you can see the flaw in your logic.  Further in a more skidded turn, the ski being angled across your direction of travel is no different....again your statement seems baseless.  You seem to be confusing the idea of diverging and converging paths of our COM and BOS vs. steering angle.  Very different ideas.  Both valid thou.

Steering angle explains how our COM is turned by our skis.  It also demonstrates how turns have a turning component and a slowing component.  At the extremes you can have 100% slowing and 0% steering (ie hockey stop), the other end of the spectrum you have 100%turning and 0% slowing (ie pure carved turn).  Most turns we do fall in between these two extremes.

The diverging and converging of our BOS/COM is based on the assumption that the turn is happening, the idea then shows the relative paths of our BOS/COM but it does not explain what makes the turn happen.

Did not see you post before. I don't believe that the steering angle is zero at the apex, but with your definition it will be.

I am not the one confusing the COM and BOS paths. That was the whole reason for my post. To repeat, your defintion was "angle between the direction the ski is pointing and the direction of motion of the centre of mass". If you are carving the direction the ski is pointing and the BOS path is almost the same.

If you tie a nut in a string and swing it, what would be your steeering angle? What is your steering angle on ice-skates?

Do you see why none of the definitions discussed make sense?

Yes, if you are carving, the angle your ski tip is pointing and the path of your of COM is the closet aligned you can get.  As written earlier in the pure carving sense the steering angle is 100% steering no slowling, so it is effecient of a turn as a possible.   You actually seem to get this....so I am confused by your writing it makes no sense.

Nut on a string.  Interesting...honestly I dont know the answer to that one.  But a nut on a string is not skiing, or really like anything else we do as people except maybe swing on a rope.  Very different to skiing, so not sure your analogy is apt.  The simple answer I suppose is the difference between the tanget to the arc and the arc itself, but the string really just makes this all come down to finite elements.  Not really skiing, and definaltey not the type of detail we would go to when using the simple steering angle concept.

Ice skates:   Well good question.  I had to look this up.  http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikijunior:How_Things_Work/Ice_Skates

But according to this, skates are not flat, they have a curve build in...

According to this, they work just like skis, or on a bike

Good question thou,...but ultimatley, if you read all of the above and beleive it...or not....somthing is making those skates turn....what do you think it is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost

steering angle = angle between the direction the ski is pointing and the direction of motion of the centre of mass, mass being the sum of all the mass that is travelling including skier, skis, bindings, poles, goggles, touque, etc.

I find the local steering angle a useful concept for considering what is happening at the ski/snow interface.  You can average it (surface integral) over the ski to get the global steering angle of a carving ski.  Defining the angle using the ski only is also useful in considering what is happening at the ski snow interface, but then I have to include concurrent skier-ski interaction separately.

Ghost, Skidude, IMO this definition does not make sense. By this definition you would have quite a significant steering angle when the COM trajectory crosses the BOS trajectory. The steering angle would vary substantially throughout the turn and somewhere close to the apex it would be zero, which does not make sense since this is where you have close to maximum turning.

To give a mathematically correct term would be quite difficult, and it would involve integrals etc as Ghost mentioned.

Ghosts first definition "the angle between the direction the ski is pointing and the direction of travel of the ski." is better, but it does not accurately depict what the steering angle is in a carved turn. To use something involving the tip angle is not good either, becase then the steering angle would vary with the ski length.

I don't have a suggestion for a good definition, but I think that in layman terms the relative magnitude of the steering angle can be seen from the widths of the tracks.

Interesting ideas...but no.

A key concept in skiing is that the skis turn the skier.

At the apex, as you say lots of "turning" is occouring...why do you beleive that the steering angle is zero?  In a purley carved turn, are you suggesting the ski ceases to be bent at apex?  Surely you can see the flaw in your logic.  Further in a more skidded turn, the ski being angled across your direction of travel is no different....again your statement seems baseless.  You seem to be confusing the idea of diverging and converging paths of our COM and BOS vs. steering angle.  Very different ideas.  Both valid thou.

Steering angle explains how our COM is turned by our skis.  It also demonstrates how turns have a turning component and a slowing component.  At the extremes you can have 100% slowing and 0% steering (ie hockey stop), the other end of the spectrum you have 100%turning and 0% slowing (ie pure carved turn).  Most turns we do fall in between these two extremes.

The diverging and converging of our BOS/COM is based on the assumption that the turn is happening, the idea then shows the relative paths of our BOS/COM but it does not explain what makes the turn happen.

wait a minute so the ski turn me? they just turn me and I have no control of it what so ever.

How about the skier make a movement to present a direction change, and the skier's pressure management skills let/make the skis turns. With no pressure there is no turn.

Yes the skis turn you...from a physics point of view anyway.  What makes the car turn?  You or the front wheels?  Sure you "control" the front wheels via the steering wheel...but I assure you....it is the front wheels that make the car turn....not you.  Interestingly, as the car turns, if you are driving agressive enough, you might feel yourslef getting pushed into the side of the seat, or car door as you go around the corner...that is actually the car pushing you....or  put another way, that is the car turning you.

Having said all that, for clarity, just becuase the skis turn the skier....does not mean the skier has no contorl over where the skis push him...

Which 2 sentences did y'all finally agree upon?  Your consensus definition should go in the wiki.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6

Lets check out what wiki has to say about steering:

Wiki

Steering the term applied to the collection of components, linkages, etc. which will allow a vessel (ship, boat) or vehicle (car, motorcycle, bicycle) to follow the desired course. An exception is the case of rail transport by which rail tracks combined together with railroad switches (and also known as 'points' in British English) provide the steering function.

Steering the term applied to the collection of components, linkages, etc. which will allow the skier to follow the desird course. An exception is the case of carving by which ski side cut combined together with body movements provide the steering function.

Conclusion is that the steering angle and the skidding angle are two completely different things. Steering angle is the angle between the direction of the CoM and the direction the ski tip points. The skid angle or better yet the "side slip angle" is the ski angle relative to the snow flow. Carving would be steering. Steering angle cero. If the tails brake lose the skis would be over-steering. Now steering angle would be greater than cero.

If we look at aeronautical vehicles for a reference they normally turn so called "coordintaed" turns. If we have any pilots here please correct me if Im wrong. A coordinated turn is when you roll the airoplane sideways. Annother way of turning would be skid-to-turn where the plane is placed at a sideslip angle relative to the airflow. Check this out:

Wiki

Skid-to-turn is an aeronautical vehicle reference for how such a vehicle may be turned. It applies to vehicles such as aircraft and missiles. In skid-to-turn, the vehicle does not roll to a preferred angle. Instead commands to the control surfaces are mixed to produce the maneuver in the desired direction. This is distinct from the coordinated turn used by aircraft pilots. For instance, a vehicle flying horizontally may be turned in the horizontal plane by the application of rudder controls to place the body at a sideslip angle relative to the airflow. This sideslip flow then produces a force in the horizontal plane to turn the vehicle's velocity vector. The benefit of the skid-to-turn maneuver is that it can be performed much quicker than a coordinated turn. This is useful when trying to correct for small errors. The disadvantage occurs if the vehicle has greater maneuverability in one body plane than another. In that case the turns are less efficient and either consume greater thrust or cause a greater loss of aircraft specific energy than coordinated turns.

I think that parallels to skiing can be drawn big time. Coordinated turns would be so called carved turns. Mabye we could replace the word carivng with the world coordintated alltogether. Skidded turns could be eather skidded or side slipped. If we look at the wiki here above we can read a very cool description of skidded (non carved (coordinated)) turns: in skid-to-turn, the skies are not rolled to a preferred angle. Insted commands to the control surfaces are mixed to produce the maneuver in the desired direction.

I am so happy you acknowledged the bolded red bits that I wont even comment on your use of an obscure reference like wiki when online dictionaries are availble.  But anyway.

I assume you know that when you ski a carved turn your ski is bent into a curve.  So the ski tip does not point in the same direction of the ski underfoot or your COM....so based on your definition of steering angle...why is it zero in a carved turn?

Sorry my fault. Offcourse there is a steering angle when carving. My bad, wrote it at work.... Anyway, glad you liked the rest of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bell

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6

Hmmmm... not too sure about that swiss thing.... could have happened......  BTW, that would have been initiation via rotation, not inclination. Like teachers using an imaginary steering weel.. Initiation via inclination would have been the airplane drill done the wrong way arround, the right way. Which is wrong .

Like it or not, many Swiss instructors are currently teaching turn initiation via inclination - and rotation.
I think we need to be careful about using terms like "wrong", just because it doesn't agree with the system that we personally are accustomed to.
There are many different ways to ski well, and many different ways to teach.

You must have got me wrong. Nothing wrong with initiating a turn with inclination. But with rotation its a complete different ball game.... turning a steering weel or handle bars into the turn is the same as rotating into the turn. Also, inclination should not be from the waist up. It should be the whole skier. You roll your skis on ede and the rest follows....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72
Yes the skis turn you...from a physics point of view anyway.  What makes the car turn?  You or the front wheels?  Sure you "control" the front wheels via the steering wheel...but I assure you....it is the front wheels that make the car turn....not you.  Interestingly, as the car turns, if you are driving agressive enough, you might feel yourslef getting pushed into the side of the seat, or car door as you go around the corner...that is actually the car pushing you....or  put another way, that is the car turning you.

Having said all that, for clarity, just becuase the skis turn the skier....does not mean the skier has no contorl over where the skis push him...

Offcourse its the weels turning the car and the skis turning the skier. This is correct.

Edited by tdk6 - 11/12/10 at 3:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo

Quote:

No one has mentioned "soft weight shift" yet.

That's my preferred way to initiate a turn - simply collapse the outside, "stance" leg and everything else follows.

This response actually addresses the OP's question! Congratulations, Walt.

The OP didn't ask for the "one right way" to start a turn, or "how skis turn," but how many ways can we get it started. We're not supposed to be converging on one right answer, but discovering how many answers we can come up with.

So how many answeres did you come up with

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72

Yes, if you are carving, the angle your ski tip is pointing and the path of your of COM is the closet aligned you can get.  As written earlier in the pure carving sense the steering angle is 100% steering no slowling, so it is effecient of a turn as a possible.   You actually seem to get this....so I am confused by your writing it makes no sense.

Nut on a string.  Interesting...honestly I dont know the answer to that one.  But a nut on a string is not skiing, or really like anything else we do as people except maybe swing on a rope.  Very different to skiing, so not sure your analogy is apt.  The simple answer I suppose is the difference between the tanget to the arc and the arc itself, but the string really just makes this all come down to finite elements.  Not really skiing, and definaltey not the type of detail we would go to when using the simple steering angle concept.

Ice skates:   Well good question.  I had to look this up.  http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikijunior:How_Things_Work/Ice_Skates

But according to this, skates are not flat, they have a curve build in...

According to this, they work just like skis, or on a bike

Good question thou,...but ultimatley, if you read all of the above and beleive it...or not....somthing is making those skates turn....what do you think it is?

Oh I know what makes skates turn, I was just pointing it out to make clear that one of the defintions used for steering angle does not make sense. The string exemplified a ski with length 0. There is no angle between the arc and the tangent so no steering angle by the first definition and yet the nut turns.

I am not arguing about you not needing a steering angle, I am just puzzled by the definitions

Let me make an example why the defintion "angle between the direction the ski is pointing and the direction of motion of the centre of mass" does not make sense

If you go straight down and start to push yourself to the left in a carving turn the COM will have have a direction to the left, Since the COM is to the left of the skis in the early turn the angle will be to the right.

This is a weird defintion to have an angle pointing to the right when the skis are turning left.

I think it makes much more sense to talk about the turn radius when carving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt

Quote:

Interesting ideas...but no.

A key concept in skiing is that the skis turn the skier.

At the apex, as you say lots of "turning" is occouring...why do you beleive that the steering angle is zero?  In a purley carved turn, are you suggesting the ski ceases to be bent at apex?  Surely you can see the flaw in your logic.  Further in a more skidded turn, the ski being angled across your direction of travel is no different....again your statement seems baseless.  You seem to be confusing the idea of diverging and converging paths of our COM and BOS vs. steering angle.  Very different ideas.  Both valid thou.

Steering angle explains how our COM is turned by our skis.  It also demonstrates how turns have a turning component and a slowing component.  At the extremes you can have 100% slowing and 0% steering (ie hockey stop), the other end of the spectrum you have 100%turning and 0% slowing (ie pure carved turn).  Most turns we do fall in between these two extremes.

The diverging and converging of our BOS/COM is based on the assumption that the turn is happening, the idea then shows the relative paths of our BOS/COM but it does not explain what makes the turn happen.

Did not see you post before. I don't believe that the steering angle is zero at the apex, but with your definition it will be.

I am not the one confusing the COM and BOS paths. That was the whole reason for my post. To repeat, your defintion was "angle between the direction the ski is pointing and the direction of motion of the centre of mass". If you are carving the direction the ski is pointing and the BOS path is almost the same.

If you tie a nut in a string and swing it, what would be your steeering angle? What is your steering angle on ice-skates?

Do you see why none of the definitions discussed make sense?

Yes, if you are carving, the angle your ski tip is pointing and the path of your of COM is the closet aligned you can get.  As written earlier in the pure carving sense the steering angle is 100% steering no slowling, so it is effecient of a turn as a possible.   You actually seem to get this....so I am confused by your writing it makes no sense.

Nut on a string.  Interesting...honestly I dont know the answer to that one.  But a nut on a string is not skiing, or really like anything else we do as people except maybe swing on a rope.  Very different to skiing, so not sure your analogy is apt.  The simple answer I suppose is the difference between the tanget to the arc and the arc itself, but the string really just makes this all come down to finite elements.  Not really skiing, and definaltey not the type of detail we would go to when using the simple steering angle concept.

Ice skates:   Well good question.  I had to look this up.  http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikijunior:How_Things_Work/Ice_Skates

But according to this, skates are not flat, they have a curve build in...

According to this, they work just like skis, or on a bike

Good question thou,...but ultimatley, if you read all of the above and beleive it...or not....somthing is making those skates turn....what do you think it is?

Im not understanding the slowling part..... and IMO skiing is as little about a steering angle as it is about a nut on a rope. I dont understand where the term could be used to make much sence. BTW the steering angle is not cero when the ski tips hit apex because when the COM hits apex the ski tips allredy point some what across the hill. Maybe the steering angle should be measured from under the boots? Not a very parctical term IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt

Oh I know what makes skates turn, I was just pointing it out to make clear that one of the defintions used for steering angle does not make sense. The string exemplified a ski with length 0. There is no angle between the arc and the tangent so no steering angle by the first definition and yet the nut turns.

I am not arguing about you not needing a steering angle, I am just puzzled by the definitions

Let me make an example why the defintion "angle between the direction the ski is pointing and the direction of motion of the centre of mass" does not make sense

If you go straight down and start to push yourself to the left in a carving turn the COM will have have a direction to the left, Since the COM is to the left of the skis in the early turn the angle will be to the right.

This is a weird defintion to have an angle pointing to the right when the skis are turning left.

I think it makes much more sense to talk about the turn radius when carving.

Im also not finding much use for the term but if its used then it should be used correctly. If you go straight down and make a pivot slip the steering angle will be cero deg at first and then when the skis point across the hill the steering angle would be 90 deg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA

wait a minute so the ski turn me? they just turn me and I have no control of it what so ever.

How about the skier make a movement to present a direction change, and the skier's pressure management skills let/make the skis turns. With no pressure there is no turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6

You must have got me wrong. Nothing wrong with initiating a turn with inclination. But with rotation its a complete different ball game.... turning a steering weel or handle bars into the turn is the same as rotating into the turn. Also, inclination should not be from the waist up. It should be the whole skier. You roll your skis on ede and the rest follows....

Sorry. I am not a big fan of giving kids these "handlebars" either.
Enjoy the racing this weekend!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72

Yes, if you are carving, the angle your ski tip is pointing and the path of your of COM is the closet aligned you can get.  As written earlier in the pure carving sense the steering angle is 100% steering no slowling, so it is effecient of a turn as a possible.   You actually seem to get this....so I am confused by your writing it makes no sense.

Nut on a string.  Interesting...honestly I dont know the answer to that one.  But a nut on a string is not skiing, or really like anything else we do as people except maybe swing on a rope.  Very different to skiing, so not sure your analogy is apt.  The simple answer I suppose is the difference between the tanget to the arc and the arc itself, but the string really just makes this all come down to finite elements.  Not really skiing, and definaltey not the type of detail we would go to when using the simple steering angle concept.

Ice skates:   Well good question.  I had to look this up.  http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikijunior:How_Things_Work/Ice_Skates

But according to this, skates are not flat, they have a curve build in...

According to this, they work just like skis, or on a bike

Good question thou,...but ultimatley, if you read all of the above and beleive it...or not....somthing is making those skates turn....what do you think it is?

Oh I know what makes skates turn, I was just pointing it out to make clear that one of the defintions used for steering angle does not make sense. The string exemplified a ski with length 0. There is no angle between the arc and the tangent so no steering angle by the first definition and yet the nut turns.

I am not arguing about you not needing a steering angle, I am just puzzled by the definitions

Let me make an example why the defintion "angle between the direction the ski is pointing and the direction of motion of the centre of mass" does not make sense

If you go straight down and start to push yourself to the left in a carving turn the COM will have have a direction to the left, Since the COM is to the left of the skis in the early turn the angle will be to the right.

This is a weird defintion to have an angle pointing to the right when the skis are turning left.

I think it makes much more sense to talk about the turn radius when carving.

I think you are trying to read far too much into "steering angle".

Steering angle is provided,usually in the first few pages of skiing texts...because it is one of the most basic skiing concepts...it simply explains what makes a turn happen.

For a car to turn the front wheels are turned at some angle across the direction of the cars direction, as a result a turn happens

For a bike same thing

For skiing, we simply turn the skis across our direciton of travel and that makes us turn...

That is all steering angle is about...nothign more, nothing less.

Steeirng angle is not meant to be used as a desriptor, a technque, or anythign like that...it is simply the base concept about what we need to turn....

Some people ask, if that is true, how do you explain a carved turn?  Well I explained that above.....you need to view the ski, like a car, when a car turns, the front wheels dont point in the same direction as the back wheels, a ski bent into reverse camber is the same, the ski tip does not point in the same direction as the ski underfoot....

If you look for somthing more then what I wrote above, or try to read more into it then that, you are barking up the wrong tree.

^^^ What he said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72

Yes, if you are carving, the angle your ski tip is pointing and the path of your of COM is the closet aligned you can get.  As written earlier in the pure carving sense the steering angle is 100% steering no slowling, so it is effecient of a turn as a possible.   You actually seem to get this....so I am confused by your writing it makes no sense.

Nut on a string.  Interesting...honestly I dont know the answer to that one.  But a nut on a string is not skiing, or really like anything else we do as people except maybe swing on a rope.  Very different to skiing, so not sure your analogy is apt.  The simple answer I suppose is the difference between the tanget to the arc and the arc itself, but the string really just makes this all come down to finite elements.  Not really skiing, and definaltey not the type of detail we would go to when using the simple steering angle concept.

Ice skates:   Well good question.  I had to look this up.  http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikijunior:How_Things_Work/Ice_Skates

But according to this, skates are not flat, they have a curve build in...

According to this, they work just like skis, or on a bike

Good question thou,...but ultimatley, if you read all of the above and beleive it...or not....somthing is making those skates turn....what do you think it is?

Oh I know what makes skates turn, I was just pointing it out to make clear that one of the defintions used for steering angle does not make sense. The string exemplified a ski with length 0. There is no angle between the arc and the tangent so no steering angle by the first definition and yet the nut turns.

I am not arguing about you not needing a steering angle, I am just puzzled by the definitions

Let me make an example why the defintion "angle between the direction the ski is pointing and the direction of motion of the centre of mass" does not make sense

If you go straight down and start to push yourself to the left in a carving turn the COM will have have a direction to the left, Since the COM is to the left of the skis in the early turn the angle will be to the right.

This is a weird defintion to have an angle pointing to the right when the skis are turning left.

I think it makes much more sense to talk about the turn radius when carving.

I think you are trying to read far too much into "steering angle".

Steering angle is provided,usually in the first few pages of skiing texts...because it is one of the most basic skiing concepts...it simply explains what makes a turn happen.

For a car to turn the front wheels are turned at some angle across the direction of the cars direction, as a result a turn happens

For a bike same thing

For skiing, we simply turn the skis across our direciton of travel and that makes us turn...

That is all steering angle is about...nothign more, nothing less.

Steeirng angle is not meant to be used as a desriptor, a technque, or anythign like that...it is simply the base concept about what we need to turn....

Some people ask, if that is true, how do you explain a carved turn?  Well I explained that above.....you need to view the ski, like a car, when a car turns, the front wheels dont point in the same direction as the back wheels, a ski bent into reverse camber is the same, the ski tip does not point in the same direction as the ski underfoot....

If you look for somthing more then what I wrote above, or try to read more into it then that, you are barking up the wrong tree.

The traditional definition of steering angle was never meant to do more than explain how a ski at an angle to your direction of travel would impart forces that accelerated you sideways and backwards.

If you want to have it explain how a turn happens using a steering angle concept, you can certainly make up your own definitions, like I have, but that will only confuse people who are familiar with the traditional definition.  If you think about the apex of a carved turn, and define steering angle as direction of force acting on the ski and skier's mass, and define skid angle as angle between direction of travel  and direction tangent to bent ski pointing back to front then it is clear that at the apex we have maximum steering angle and minimum skid angle, but you would get further calling them angle A and angle B.

Originally posted by Jamt

"If you go straight down and start to push yourself to the left in a carving turn the COM will have have a direction to the left, Since the COM is to the left of the skis in the early turn the angle will be to the right."

Direction of travel, direction of acceleration, position, velocity, acceleration are all different.

Not quite clear what you mean by that, but if are at the apex of a left turn while going straight down the hill at that instant, like going around a gate in a slalom course, your COM will have a direction of travel straight down the hill, and forces will be pushing it to the left and it will be accelerating to the left, while moving straight down.  An instant ago the COM was traveling almost straight downhill, but slightly to viewers left and, now it is travelling straight at the viewer, and in an instant it will be travelling slightly  to viewer's right of straight downhill.

So now we have agreed on what steering and steering angle is. Lets go back to the topic of listing different ways of starting a turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6

So now we have agreed on what steering and steering angle is. Lets go back to the topic of listing different ways of starting a turn.

So you agree with post #6?

SD, yes I do. Here is the quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72

Only 1 way...you must establish a steering angle....

Now there are 2 primary ways of establing a steering angle...pivot the ski, or bend the ski.

Now there are really unlimited ways of doing that....but some are inherently more effective then others.

I agree that in order to turn you need to establish a steering angle. And there are two ways of doing that:

1 Pivot the ski

2 Bend the ski

But we are not halfway yet because I dont believe that there is an unlimited way of initiating a turn. At least I dont think its a good excuse for not attemting to do a listing. I think that the ways of initiating a turn are are quite limited. Now we have two main groupings: skidded turns and carved turns. Now lets start listing all the ways we know and try to avoide too much overlapping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost

Direction of travel, direction of acceleration, position, velocity, acceleration are all different.

Exactly, and with the defintion above what is measured is an angle between a force vector, which is the same as an acceleration component in this context, and the velocity vector.

Lets drop this, it's not getting anywhere.

Lets just agree that in order to turn you need to establish a steering angle. How it is measured is a different topic.

If you were teaching a class, would you teach them that they need to establish a steering angle to make a turn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo

If you were teaching a class, would you teach them that they need to establish a steering angle to make a turn?

For carving no, for steered turns maybe, but not for beginners.

No

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt

For carving no, for steered turns maybe, but not for beginners.

All turns are steered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt

For carving no, for steered turns maybe, but not for beginners.

All turns are steered.

Oh no, not this discussion again :)  I think you know what I mean.

In another thread you concluded that steering=skidding. So does that mean that in your definition all carved turns are skidded ;)

I guess what I was after with the original post was how people think about turning (when they are thinking about it at all).

So, when you are out skiing, do you always start your turns the same way?  Or do you sometimes find yourself thinking:  Given this terrain and these conditions, I better use a different tactic?

Another way to get at my original question (for instructors) would be to answer just what nolo was getting at a few posts back:  do you always instruct all you students, beginners, intermediates, advanced skiers alike, on all terrain, in all conditions, to start their turns the same way?  Or do you focus them sometimes on doing different things at the start of their turns because of the context?

I suspect that the people who say it's all done one way, and the people who say it's done different ways, may employ exactly the same tactics as each other, but conceive of them differently.  Or not.  I'm wondering.  That's why I started this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo

If you were teaching a class, would you teach them that they need to establish a steering angle to make a turn?

I teach them that their old turn has to end. They need to release their skis and make an edge change. That's it. Given that we are a few pages in and still don't seem to be clear on what steering angle is, the last thing I'd wan to do is ask that they establish a steering angle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo

If you were teaching a class, would you teach them that they need to establish a steering angle to make a turn?

No.

Release, tip and/or twist, yes.

I remember being in a great clinic with a great clinician playing around with this very topic. We were watching the USST running GS at Mammoth with one of their PSIA/USST coaches, Shawn Smith. How many ways do racers initiate turns in a GS course? It's like LiquidFeet said, so much depends on context (I'd add purpose and power, in the Weemsian sense, to that caveat too).

Quote:
I teach them that their old turn has to end. They need to release their skis and make an edge change. That's it.

That's so simple and accessible, a student at any level could understand the direction. Thanks, epic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet

I guess what I was after with the original post was how people think about turning (when they are thinking about it at all).

So, when you are out skiing, do you always start your turns the same way?  Or do you sometimes find yourself thinking:  Given this terrain and these conditions, I better use a different tactic?

Another way to get at my original question (for instructors) would be to answer just what nolo was getting at a few posts back:  do you always instruct all you students, beginners, intermediates, advanced skiers alike, on all terrain, in all conditions, to start their turns the same way?  Or do you focus them sometimes on doing different things at the start of their turns because of the context?

I suspect that the people who say it's all done one way, and the people who say it's done different ways, may employ exactly the same tactics as each other, but conceive of them differently.  Or not.  I'm wondering.  That's why I started this post.

When I ski I usually always think of it as a drill for something so I pay close attention to what I do. Usually one thing at a time. One favorite thing I do is ski every turn with a different technique in a rotating manner. Its a good way to finding out what works when and where. IMO its good to know different techniques. I dont ski or teach my student to turn always the same way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet

I guess what I was after with the original post was how people think about turning (when they are thinking about it at all).

So, when you are out skiing, do you always start your turns the same way?  Or do you sometimes find yourself thinking:  Given this terrain and these conditions, I better use a different tactic?

Another way to get at my original question (for instructors) would be to answer just what nolo was getting at a few posts back:  do you always instruct all you students, beginners, intermediates, advanced skiers alike, on all terrain, in all conditions, to start their turns the same way?  Or do you focus them sometimes on doing different things at the start of their turns because of the context?

I suspect that the people who say it's all done one way, and the people who say it's done different ways, may employ exactly the same tactics as each other, but conceive of them differently.  Or not.  I'm wondering.  That's why I started this post.

Usually to me from chair to lift corral is one big snaky "octopus" pure-arced railroad track type turn with me just constantly tipping my skis, adjusting the tipping angle and balancing along them.  That's usually all I think about. Transitions happen when the tipping angle goes through zero.

Sometimes though I will be in a hard turn and deliberatly "release" myself from the turn and go snapping across my skis.  Sometimes while doing this I manipulate the tipping angle and adjust when the skis switch edges and how far past where I let go they keep their turn going and how tight their turn is.  It's just something fun to do on the groomed runs.  Still edge-locked carving.

When I'm skiing moguls now a days I don't edge-lock carve my turns, I deliberately allow them to brush against the snow.  Not sure how I do that, but it is similar to drifting a car around a corner.

Sometimes I just pivot my skis and set a tipping angle in the air and land in a carve.  Don't do this very often.

I also do a braking turn where I basically combine a hockey stop with a turn and adjust the amount of turning braking through edge angle manipulation and fore aft balancing.  I do this whenever I come into the lift line or need to slow down to make a turn.

Rarely (last happened about six years ago skiing moguls on my 208 SGs) I realize that I do not have enough mass/strength to turn both my skis in time to set the edges where they need to be and just set the outside ski down where it can turn me, while keeping the inside ski up and clear for a half second.  That's when I will complain about how much I suck at mogul skiing and having to stem one of my turns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo

If you were teaching a class, would you teach them that they need to establish a steering angle to make a turn?

This is kind of a loaded question:

It would be similiar to asking:  "When you go to a poor village in some third world country do you teach them to intersect the peizometric surface of the groundwater table to get clean drinking water?"

Well the answer would be "No, you just teach them to build a well....but by telling them where to put the well, and how deep to go, you ineffect did infact teach them to intersect the pezometric surface of the groundwater table".  So the answer then becomes "yes"....kind of.

Bottom line is to make a turn you dont need to know what a steering angle is, or have even heard the term...but to teach skiing the more you know about the science behind it, the better.  Hence steering angle is a good concept for an instructor to know...even thou he may never ever mention it to a student.

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