EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › On the misconceptions of PRESSURE
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

On the misconceptions of PRESSURE - Page 3

post #61 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post





what happens when some keeps trying lean their body into the turn? 

 

happen very rarely in my never ever lessons. but every once in awhile I get someone who is throwing their upper body into turn, no amount of proper lower body rotation will ever correct that untill they stop doing that.

 

and yes I know the answer but when someone says its all ways intutative the way we teach, I question how often they run into a student who is trying to turn how they think it will work.



Well yes that is fairly common....but that is intuitive.  You "lean in" when making a turn on a bike, or running around a corner, or flying in an airplane, or what have you...and you effectivley lean in when turning on skis too....so beginners see that, and think that they need to lean in to make the skis turn as well...the only thing they dont understand, and this relates to the OP, you lean in to balance the forces created by the turn...the "lean" doesnt create the turn...or put another way, the pressure comes from the turn, it doensnt create it.

 

So it is not that the beginner is doing somthing wrong by leaning in...we do inclinate...it is just that typically the beginner does it too much, and too soon.

post #62 of 78

Like cycling or running or flying the amount of inclination is relative to our speed and forces created.  The beginner tends to want to lean way more than the speed dictates.  When we turn going very slowly on a bike or walk around a corner, or fly near stall speed, we don't lean much at all.  

 

The problem is we are asking beginners, who are generally pretty numb from the proprioception point of view, from the neck down, to make very subtle shifts in weight, edge angle, and rotary movements as well as blend these movements appropriately, when we are generally in a very gross motor movement phase of their learning cycle.  Consequently, we tend to see over inclination, pushing off rather than balancing on, and over edging movements in attempts to turn.

post #63 of 78



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

Like cycling or running or flying the amount of inclination is relative to our speed and forces created.  The beginner tends to want to lean way more than the speed dictates.  When we turn going very slowly on a bike or walk around a corner, or fly near stall speed, we don't lean much at all.  

 

The problem is we are asking beginners, who are generally pretty numb from the proprioception point of view, from the neck down, to make very subtle shifts in weight, edge angle, and rotary movements as well as blend these movements appropriately, when we are generally in a very gross motor movement phase of their learning cycle.  Consequently, we tend to see over inclination, pushing off rather than balancing on, and over edging movements in attempts to turn.


Bud,

I agree with your assessment of the problem we have with beginners and is why the "In-rigger drill" http://tinyurl.com/27hrca2 has been so useful even down to the beginner level. The student learns how to use the full range of edging skills to create "pressure" at very slow speeds without dealing with balance, while maintaining a long leg with angulation on the dominant turning side. This position also inhibits unnecessary rotary movements of the turning ski while providing the opportunity to assess canting issues by someone who understands and believes the importance of that.

post #64 of 78

Ray,  

 

Watched the inrigger video and not buying it for beginners, sorry.  Locking on edges does not instill comfort in a beginner's mind.  

 

I am lazy and want to be able to turn my skis with the absolute least amount of effort.  This not only means having my equipment balanced and tuned properly but finding the technique which taxes my muscles and psyche the least.

 

The inrigger drill ain't it!


Edited by bud heishman - 11/10/10 at 8:10pm
post #65 of 78
Thread Starter 

Ray, I describe your drill/progression as training wheels for big edge angle carving.  Letting people experience what these skis really can do, without having to blindly take the balance leap of faith.  Lets them feel the forces such turns create, and how those forces will keep them upright when they inclinate their CM.  Once they feel it, and believe it, they can more comfortably trust it, and thus take the leap.  

 

Pretty neat photo here.  Shows those forces in action, while employing the training wheel.  Notice how the forces have lifted me.  Inside ski completely off the snow.

 

Gorilla turn.png

 

post #66 of 78

Raycantu,

 

I'd be on the same page as Bud and Rick on that drill not being really for beginners - which brings up the question: who do you classify as 'beginners'? If you're calling "proficient Level 3/4 skiers" beginners, then I'd be OK with introducing a drill like that (used sparingly) to give them a taste of things to come. 

 

I've gotten (solid) Level 3/4 skiers to make the outside-ski carve cleanly on Green and mild-Blue slopes.  Pick up a little more speed and it's even more fun for them trying to figure out balance - which lets me start working with them on the specific lateral balance movements that such a technique forces on them - yet also apply to all other methods of skiing.   Of course, I'd want them someplace wide open and uncrowded... 

 

Your video puts forth a very intensive regimen perhaps worthwhile for level 6/7 skiers to work on, but I think only a brief introduction would work well below that level.  (You might accidentally program some soon-to-be unguided missiles on the Green slopes!)

 

.ma

 

PS: Hey Rick, that photo looks a lot like when my Wedge students do it - except that their skis are in a Wedge, their hands/arms are wildly flailing and that inside-ski continues to rise until it's over their head (and not in any sort of Royal Christie).

 

post #67 of 78

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post


That doesnt surprise me at all.  But to be clear, it is not that skiing is counterintuitive....it is your understanding of it that is.

 

For me, and most of the ski coaching/teaching world skiing is very intuitive...if i want to go left, I either turn my skis left, or tip them left, or some combination of the two...if i want to go right, I turn them right, or tip them right, or again, some combination of the two.  Easy, intuitive, correct.


Ive thaught thousands of lessons. Skiing is not intuitive at first to most first timers. The older and less athletic the student the less intuitive it is. There are lots of things that the student has to learn that is not natural to them. For example sliding forwards is not something that they are used to doing. They usually lift their feet off the ground and walk. So thats what they do when they try to ski. So they need to re-learn how to go forwards on skis. Same with turning. They try to step. It does not seem likely to be true to them when assessed using intuition. Same with pressuring the right ski to go left. Also, they try to lean left to keep from falling when they fall to the right but they should do the opposite. But its very common for skiers, very good skier, some instructors and coaches included, not to recognize this condition.  

post #68 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

I thought it was tip both skis right and you will feel more pressure on on the one farthest from the direction of the turn.  Just like when you ride a bike.  If I'm riding straight and then start turning in a circle going to the right, I will feel more pressure on my left (outside) foot than my right (inside) foot.  I didn't have to press on my left foot to go right.  My weight shifted inboard.

 



Interesting viewpoint. So how about countersteering? Is that toatlly intuitive to a person riding a bice for the first time?

post #69 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post

It's also informative to get a good understanding of the way another type of skier thinks.

 


Very very true  
 

post #70 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

Great! TDK6!  I can see where we agree for the most part and differ only in small details.

 

I totally concur with your description of AWT.  It is how we think of Passive Weight Transfer that gets a little fuzzy.

 

I prefer taking away resistance to turning rather than moving something to overcome resistance.  That said, in your second paragraph you said, "When I initiate a carved turn I flex my inside foot to "actively" shift the weight...".   Here is where it is perhaps a little fuzzy because I would classify this movement as a passive weight shift, because you are taking away the resistance or releasing the platform of your old turn, which instantly shifts weight to the new outside ski.

 

I hope you can see the difference between the movements you describe in your beginner turns vs. your carved turns?  In your description of the wedge turns your upper body is moving out and away from the turn direction, while in your carved turns there is no negative or defensive or braking movement occurring.  You are moving everything into the direction of your turns.

 

The passive weight shift occurs simultaneously, in my mind, with the release of pressure or weight from the inside ski.  It has to!  Now at the beginner level we do not want to move as aggressively into inclination as the speeds are slow, but a very slight movement is all that is needed to release the edge and load the outside ski, yet we are mimicking the exact movements of a good parallel turn.

 

So to your statement that said we have to be moving forward to use a passive weight shift, I agree.  Standing in a wedge, if you simply decrease the angle of one ski or the other without trying to hinder or help any other action in your body, you will see a slight movement of your hips in that direction. This creates a passive weight shift, provided there is forward movement of the skis over the snow.   From releasing this edge, with only slight forward movement, a turn will ensue.  After all skiing is moving, yes?

 

You said, "A big difference between AWT and PWT is that AWT does not need any speed."  and I agree though I would replace speed with forward momentum, which as soon as we slide on skis, we create.  I had never thought of this comparison between the two before but it makes perfect sense that in a static environment AWT makes sense for demonstration purposes but I would argue it sets up negative movements before we even slide on skis.  This is where I see instructors (too many) using the torso to lean out over the outside ski to set up the weight bias.  It is very demonstrable and very easy to get instant results!  Albeit, those results can create other impediments to progress.  Teaching the subtle movements consistent with parallel turns to first time turners is not as easily demonstrated or explained for the instructor, hence the tendency to rush to the default AWT method.  BUT, that doesn't make it the best choice for the student's progress!  Perhaps we as trainers, need to provide a multitude of options for instructors to use when they meet common problems when trying to explain and demonstrate this movement.

 

Perhaps my understanding is wrong?  I am open to being convinced otherwise because I do not believe I am dogmatic or closed minded.



No Bud, its you that is great . We had our dissagreements in the past but as it turns out you are one of the few persons I know here that is openminded and creative. Your students are very lucky to have you as a ski instructor. I have no dissagreements with what you wrote in this posting. Some of my statements drew some awsome stuff out of you. You have it all figured out. The only thing that will remain unsolved is which method is better. Maybe there is no better than the other. Just different.

post #71 of 78



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 


Ive thaught thousands of lessons. Skiing is not intuitive at first to most first timers. The older and less athletic the student the less intuitive it is. There are lots of things that the student has to learn that is not natural to them. For example sliding forwards is not something that they are used to doing. They usually lift their feet off the ground and walk. So thats what they do when they try to ski. So they need to re-learn how to go forwards on skis. Same with turning. They try to step. It does not seem likely to be true to them when assessed using intuition.

 

Yes the sensation of sliding is typcially "new" so we help students with that...so?  Just becuase somthing is "new" does not mean it is not intuitive.


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 


Same with pressuring the right ski to go left. Also, they try to lean left to keep from falling when they fall to the right but they should do the opposite

 

Well pressuring to go left to right or vice versa is counter-intuitive...so why teach it?  There are better, more effective, more intuitive ways.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 

But its very common for skiers, very good skier, some instructors and coaches included, not to recognize this condition.  

 

I think you need to re-assess your definiton of a ver good skier...also, FWIW the only instructor or coach that I know that is confused by this is you. The push here to go there routine was dropped in the 80s...that is 20 some odd years ago!

post #72 of 78


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post


Interesting viewpoint. So how about countersteering? Is that toatlly intuitive to a person riding a bice for the first time?


I thought we were trying to keep this simple and on the misconceptions of pressure.  If you keep adding tangents, we'll be 15 pages again like we were in the summer. 

 

I never said anything was intuitive or counter intuitive.  Personally, I think waxing plastic strapped to your feet and sliding on a snow covered hill is counter intuitive!

 

I "THINK/FEEL" that what you described (press left to go right) is more akin to walking or running than gliding.  Will it work while gliding - yes.  Is it what we should be teaching/helping newer skiers do - no.  That's the misconception part.
 

 

Edit below:

Have to add this only because it would be rude not to.

 

"So how about countersteering?  Is that toatlly intuitive to a person riding a bice for the first time?

 

If you are you talking about on a bike (in a turn, twist the front wheel away from the turn and you will turn sharper), I think that would be an advanced move and it was counter intuitive to me when I first learned it.  Made no sense to me until I did it.


Edited by L&AirC - 11/10/10 at 7:55pm
post #73 of 78

  Wow!?  Thanks TDK6
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
No Bud, its you that is great . We had our dissagreements in the past but as it turns out you are one of the few persons I know here that is openminded and creative. Your students are very lucky to have you as a ski instructor. I have no dissagreements with what you wrote in this posting. Some of my statements drew some awsome stuff out of you. You have it all figured out. The only thing that will remain unsolved is which method is better. Maybe there is no better than the other. Just different.
post #74 of 78

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

 

I think you need to re-assess your definiton of a ver good skier...also, FWIW the only instructor or coach that I know that is confused by this is you. The push here to go there routine was dropped in the 80s...that is 20 some odd years ago!


An old trusted method of marketing own products is slamming others.

post #75 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post


I thought we were trying to keep this simple and on the misconceptions of pressure.  If you keep adding tangents, we'll be 15 pages again like we were in the summer. 

 

I never said anything was intuitive or counter intuitive.  Personally, I think waxing plastic strapped to your feet and sliding on a snow covered hill is counter intuitive!

 

I "THINK/FEEL" that what you described (press left to go right) is more akin to walking or running than gliding.  Will it work while gliding - yes.  Is it what we should be teaching/helping newer skiers do - no.  That's the misconception part.
 

 

Edit below:

Have to add this only because it would be rude not to.

 

"So how about countersteering?  Is that toatlly intuitive to a person riding a bice for the first time?

 

If you are you talking about on a bike (in a turn, twist the front wheel away from the turn and you will turn sharper), I think that would be an advanced move and it was counter intuitive to me when I first learned it.  Made no sense to me until I did it.


Ok, lets drop the countersteering on a bike discussion but thanks for taking your time and commenting on it. When I teach children to ski I see a very big difference between the ones that use outside ski pressure and angulation right from the beginning and the ones that dont. Thats all. My own observation. Not shared by all. Note that our school is feeding the race programs with aspiring racers so we work with that as our focus.

post #76 of 78


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiSpag View Post
 Tip your ankles to the left and you'll feel the boot cuff on the right side of your leg, and 2) The act of tipping the skis will result in a pressure change... not the other way around.  How you deal with it from there is up to you
 



Agreed, especially the part about the feeling of pressure within the boot (although I do feel some in the front of the ankle from supernating).  I know I'm railing when I feel that pressure passively.  I know what "active pressure" is also and it does have its place (tree skiing / cliffs / crud / steeps), but not really in rail-road track, carved turns. 

post #77 of 78

You don't angulate to create pressure, it happens when managing pressure.

post #78 of 78
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrudBuster View Post

You don't angulate to create pressure, it happens when managing pressure.



Right on, Crud.  The turn itself creates the pressure.  Angulation just directs that resultant pressure where you want it to go.  Angulate, and the the pressure moves towards the outside ski.  Angulate less and more of it goes to the inside ski.  Don't angulate enough and you end up falling over, onto the snow.  Lateral pressure management is nothing more than balance management, of which angulation is a key tool.  icon14.gif

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › On the misconceptions of PRESSURE