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Ski Acceleration at End of Turn - Getting Thrown, HELP!

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
The skis I bought this year (Vertigo Motions) are WAY more lively than any ski I've ever owned. At the end of a hard carved turn, they rocket out from under me when I de-edge, and I tend to get thrown into the back-seat. It gets tiring to throw myself forward for the next turn, what am I doing wrong?

Is there a better way? Any tips?
post #2 of 26
When you are relaxing(?bad choice of words)at the end of the first turn, you are not only releasing your edges, but standing more upright-straightening your ankles-applying weight into the back seat.

Keep flexion and extension in your ankles/knees throught all of your turn, roll your knees into the next turn, and keep your weight in the center of the boots!

After reading this section....LOUSY DRILL!!! Neat to do, but I don't think it'll help you. IGNORE THIS SECTION!!Skill to practice: traverse while flexing/extending your ankles/knees. Try to maintain your traverse line without slipping/skidding. To do this you have to roll your knees more into the hill during extension(not too much extension-you don't want to stand). This will maintain even pressure along the ski length-less chance of "backseat" shooting the ski forward. NOW YOU CAN GO BACK TO READING...

Another thought is to use the rebound to pull the heals back and move the legs under you into the next turn. Pullng the heals back keeps you forward, and then you can use the liveliness of the skiis for you

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 06, 2002 04:44 AM: Message edited 2 times, by KeeTov ]</font>
post #3 of 26
I had this happen to me too.
It still does when I am tired.
Make a concious movement to pull the 'new inside leg' back as you tip it into the new turn.
post #4 of 26
terrapin, you may be a bit too stiff as you finish these turns. relax to release the g's at the completion. as you relax, let your body flow across the skis and down the hill. besides possibly being a bit to rigid, you may be trying to keep up with the skis on the same line as the skis, instead of letting the body take a shortcut (or shorter line). anyway, this was what your symptoms brought to mind.

Later, Holiday

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 06, 2002 07:11 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Holiday ]</font>
post #5 of 26
I'm no instructor, but my experience with skiing planks with powerful tails (including those Motions, Terp!) is that you need to be more relaxed AND standing taller than you might think proper. If your hips are too far back when the acceleration starts, you will be caught behind the skis.

If you think of working the tail through the heel of your foot, rather than through a rearward hip movement, you will be closer to that in-balance position that helps accommodate the ski's quick forward motion upon acceleration.

The other part of the equation is knowing that when you pressure the tail, it will make the ski respond with forward acceleration. So, you can anticipate the rebound energy and use it to start your next turn. That's what I do -- and it's tremendous fun. It's great for shorter carved turns down relatively steep slopes.
post #6 of 26
I agree with with gonzo. Keeping centered along with applying pressure to the sweet spot of the ski is key to total control. I also believe that different types of terrain and snow conditions attribute to altering my sking technique. (old school vs new school) :
post #7 of 26
Terrapin, those Vertigo Motions/G3s' do have a nice kick. Surprising, eh? Doesn't take much lingering on the heel for them to push back harder!
You have good advice about staying centered, if you continue to get bucked, might be time to bone up with a lesson. I suspect that more and more the new skis accentuate "bad" habits or "lazy" technique. My take on the G3 is that one has to stay center/forward, making a good reach pole plant to remind myself of the G3's delight ( to kick one in the ass) and avoid it. The previous comment to stay "tall" is one to remember as well.
As is the "foot shuffle", which I remember as GS type technique from a few years back. But I remember it as being shuffle back on your new "outside" foot to counteract the weighting of your heel at the end of the turn?
Other than checking out your boots for forward lean and (too much) stiffness, I return to instruction.
Those Vertigo/G3s', "them's niice..."!
post #8 of 26
I would suggest if you are not on your heels to start with, you have yet to discover the dynamics of the ski. Make some very large radius turns for a while with a short traverse, now move to linked and large, now move to a little smaller linked (medium), now start with a large turn and SLOWLY make each succeeding linked turn smaller. Let the ski do the work. The ski is the tool not you overpowering the ski. Don’t crush the eggs beneath your feet!

Most skiers recreational skiers (an assumption about your skiing)have difficulty staying center at all times, and so do experts but they can correct, so for now keep light/medium contact shin to cuff of both boots at ALL times. Keep your hands forward like you are reaching for your steering wheel and wide enough to hug a rather large Teddy bear.

I actually suspect the power of the turn may be startling you and you yourself are unconsciously moving enough back letting the “tool” move you even farther to the backseat.

Floyd
[img]smile.gif[/img]
post #9 of 26
Terrapin, the short answer to your question " Ski Acceleration at End of Turn" is simply that you are NOT YET at the end of your turn when they accelerate from under you. And that's why they do.


...Ott
post #10 of 26
post #11 of 26
Keep moving forward (with the skis)throughout the turn. Do not let them "squirt out" from under you at the end of the turn. Try this exercise: as you start your turn bring both arms forward and continue this throughout the turn so that at the end of each turn both hands are touching in front of you. This will keep you moving with the skis. It seems quite natural for us to quit on the turn too early - just because we have crossed the fall line doesn't mean that the turn is over. We need to continue to move WITH our skis. Feel as though you are moving the outside hand forward thru the whole turn.
post #12 of 26
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 08, 2002 04:45 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Floyd ]</font>
post #13 of 26
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blizzard:
Keep moving forward (with the skis)throughout the turn. Do not let them "squirt out" from under you at the end of the turn. Try this exercise: as you start your turn bring both arms forward and continue this throughout the turn so that at the end of each turn both hands are touching in front of you. This will keep you moving with the skis. It seems quite natural for us to quit on the turn too early - just because we have crossed the fall line doesn't mean that the turn is over. We need to continue to move WITH our skis. Feel as though you are moving the outside hand forward thru the whole turn.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Blizzard please explain your post a little further. Based on what I think I read I am concerned the skier is now square to their skis at the end of the turn by touching both hands together and or if I move my outside downhill hand forward my shoulders rotate uphill and the skis flatten.

In actuality at the end of the turn if anything, as an exercise only, your up hill hand should be over your uphill ski reaching toward your shovel giving you a strong inside half and you should not square to the turn with your hips by touching both hands together over your skis. Possibly as an exercise only touching your hands together towards the start of the new turn.

Floyd


:
post #14 of 26
here's my take on it, and I welcome the coaches to comment.. I read your post two ways.. the first is , if your skies are squirting out from under you, it's because your hips are behind your boots.. at this point you should be well into initiating the next turn anyway so try the phantom move, tipping the little toe edge of the inside ski combined with pulling that inside, less weighted leg slightly back, say 3-4 inches.. this puts your new downhill ski forward a bit and should put your hip directly over the feet. The other way I read it was that those lively skis are just kikin'.. I love that.. especially at the end of a perfectly carved medium radius turn even a shaped ski will be bent{cambered} like a spring and can release with enough force to rocket you across the fall line and directly into the next turn.. so you better be organized.. I'll get back on my tails sometimes but a quick shift front{hands} and into the next turn takes care of it.. An instructor once suggested unloading the ski's pressure by a partial unweigting first and then a smoother transfer of weight to the about to become new outside ski.(old school stuff?} I beleive that Marker's new piston binding does this for you; whether it's useful just for freeskiing I'm not so sure... Lastly, loved Ott's suggestion. Always make sure you finish the turn.. I gotta remember that more than ever on shapes..speed control..
post #15 of 26
Floyd,

You can start the exercise with both arms out straight to each side; then both hands come together in a continuous movement from turn initiation to give the feeling of moving forward and keeping up with the skis. This may result in some loss of counter, but I don't think this is a bad thing - we seem to be skiing with considerably less counter on shapes. In this EXERCISE move the arms, not the shoulders.

Rubob - You are right - those slippery skis want to squirt out in front of you and leave your hips in the dust. This is expecially likely if you are skiing a good, clean, smooth fast line with no braking (the fast line). We need continuous movement - we are never static

Another way to think about it: always have 10 toes turning - never a dead spot in the turn - never a time when you are not actively moving with the skis and actively guiding the skis.
post #16 of 26
Qusetion:
Why would one ski with less counter on new skis?
If the upper body turns with the feet how does one make a quick adjustment to one's line? I saw some instructors skiing like that at Killington last week and was wondering why.
post #17 of 26
zeek,

"counter" is a rotational torso wind-up for turns involving active steering through foot swivel. it has its origins in the days when everyone skied with extra-long boards, measured by extending one's arm overhead and choosing a ski that topped out at the bend of one's wrist!

new skis aren't designed for such swivelling hula-hoop/mambo turns. they're designed for carves and some steering. a "countered" stance only limits one's edge change and slows one's response at the feet.

So, my question to you -- WHY would you want to use "counter"?

post #18 of 26
I use counter to be able to change the direction of my feet and skis without having to rotate my upper body. I face (my upper body is turned toward) the direction that my CM is going. My counter rotation develops naturally as my skis turn out of the fall line and decreaces as they turn back into the fall line.
The ski instructors I saw at Killington were letting their upper body come completely around with their skis. Their counter was minimal. Is there a reason for this? It seems like an inefficient movement in a medium radius turn.
post #19 of 26
I think the short answer to the countering question is: the shaped skis don't skid down the hill like the straight ones, so we don't need to set ourselves up to go in the skidding direction.
post #20 of 26
Zeek, try it. See how short a radius turn you can easily make with no counter. I think you will be pretty shocked.
post #21 of 26
Two points

1)"Counter" limits ones ability to tip the ski. Try it. While "countered, the only way to tip the ski is with one's hip. A square stance enables one to use their tib/fib.

2) Increase the amount of time you are on a flat ski in transition. If you are being rocketed as you say, I suspect you are going from edge to edge too quickly. Watch individuals who carve well, any radius, the turn completion is onto a flat ski and their skeletal structure is "stacked" over their boots.
post #22 of 26
Terra,
Nothing much left that hasn't been said!...but keep those hips aligned, look at your COM's momentum & its direction..with respect to your edges, particularly at certain points along the path that your feet are takin' you.
Sounds like you saw me early last season!..(as mentioned)..falling asleep halfway thru the turn..
Stay on the meadow stretches for a while and develop more dynamic quads/gluts to both a) keep the knees & feet relaxed and b) stay relaxed to extend (horizontally/vertically) as needed.

$.01
Steve

[img]smile.gif[/img]
post #23 of 26
If you don't counter to tip a ski isn't it banking? I don't understand. What about Bob Barnes's world cup photo sequences? They develop a counter, no?
post #24 of 26
I think there are two types of "counter" discussed here.

One is angulation.

The other is counter-rotation of the torso.

My "counter" is the latter.

Zeek, I think you are talking about angulation.
post #25 of 26
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zeek:
Qusetion:
Why would one ski with less counter on new skis?
If the upper body turns with the feet how does one make a quick adjustment to one's line? I saw some instructors skiing like that at Killington last week and was wondering why.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Counter-rotation is the twisting the torso in one direction and the legs in another direction while a counter movement places the upper body and lower body in a twisted relationship as the feet continuing to turn while the upper body stabilizes against say a pole plant to anticipate the next turn.

Shaped skis of today in a standard turn shape are much easier for the skier to initiate and put on edge so I can see understand why slightly less of a countering movement may be required. You do not need to “wind” the spring as tight to have it “release” with the same momentum. However I would doubt a countering movement is different on the steeps and probably is greater on a “carving” ski.

There is a chance the instructors at Killington were exploring or working on a particular exercise if they were becoming “square” at the end of a turn. No matter what the “shape” of a ski if your are on any inclined slope and let your hips square to your skis your uphill edge becomes dominant and your downhill edge is lost. Of course there are degrees depending on the slope angle/steepness. Another way to look at it the downhill leg becomes longer (to the slope) and the uphill leg becomes shorter (to the slope). You now run a risk of falling on your hip if you counter rotate your hips uphill. Oops!

Counter rotation is good in anticipation but more or less can be too much.

Floyd

[img]smile.gif[/img]
post #26 of 26
Yeah, that's what I mean.
Counter to develop angles.
It develops naturally when the skis are on edge. Ski with angulation instead of banking and a natural counter develops.

I'm pickin' up what you are layin' down.
Layin' down pure carved turns that is!
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