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Should instructors free ski (rip) in uniform? - Page 2

post #31 of 101
Thread Starter 

Who's worried about others skiing? Not me. I could care less.

Rusty comes along and labels my skiing as disfunctional. Well, he's around athletes all day and knows very well what it takes to fire one up. If he was looking for a challenge, he found it. If not, then he ought to keep his pie hole shut.

Any competitive person. You tell them they're not any good at what they do, the first thing they're going to say is, "Oh yeah? Show me".

Then, there's this whole thing about what is or isn't great skiing. Sorry. I know a lot here feel that great skiing is defined by ones ability to leave railroad tracks. I strongly disagree.

While I obviously believe in edging and edge control, I think that if a skier (or their training) is going to be judged, the judging should take place on the whole mountain, not just a small part of it. And not on the Internet.
post #32 of 101
Back to the orginal topic and not this silly I can ski better or what ever between SCSA/Todd and Rusty Guy...I could careless. Some (not all) instructors should not ski under the lift. Riding up the Super Bee at Copper yesterday two instructors were skiing a short bump run under the lift (mid way up, blue run - people who ski Copper should know what I'm talking about) and they looked like crap and this was an easy bump run. That is definetly bad advertising for the Copper ski school. I know there are alot of great instructors at Copper; Bob Barnes is one of them from what I can tell by the way after skiing with him for a short time earlier this season, but these two guys just made me shake my head in disbelief that these guys were instructors.
post #33 of 101
Thread Starter 

I'm so with you.

Now everyone here is going to think that I'm an arrogant ars, which ain't so.

I'm humble, but I just have my thang.

But if someone steps into my thang, which is basically my house, tells me that my thang is wrong, then they have instantly challenged a guy who's all about challenges.

What? Someone comes into my house, tells me that my food sucks and you expect me not to respond? Not this cowboy.
post #34 of 101
Sorry, P, I deleted 'cause it seemed, at second glance, impertinent to the thread and because the tone might've come across as you perceived it, somewhat.
Basically, for others, I was just using Kostelic and others as examples of how "great" skiing is relative.
My girlfriend thinks I'm a "great" skier. (I don't argue too profusely but DO make clear that in the larger scheme, I'm completely intermediate. I too am competitive but have always been competitive with MYSELF. One of the many wonderful things about skiing is that I am my own barometer. I know full well when I'm sucking or when I'm ripping (for me).

Never gonna be all that hard to take a quick peek around on the hill and find plenty of skiers you can leave behind, and plenty of skiers who'll leave (the editorial) you in the dust.

Just like everywhere else....

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ March 07, 2002 01:27 PM: Message edited 1 time, by ryan ]</font>
post #35 of 101

Please point out to me how I labled your skiing as dysfunctional or what I said to make you "go off"?

Prior to answering my query, think about who here has made the most positive comments about you as an individual as well as your progress about your skiing.

I ask you to please go back and carefully read my last post.
post #36 of 101
The big reason we are not allowed to ski in uniform on days off ..... simple, that way there are no instructors sneaking in for a few runs and sneaking off without working.

Perhaps out west or up in VT, it's not an issue, but our Pocono areas are very strict about this. It causes hard feelings among the guys at line up when folks are seen out crusing. If we collect one of our comp tickets and free ski there is no problem with who is on/off duty since you are out of uniform.

I think Todd should give Wacko a tour through the gates....... after all .... that's where the numbers are and the numbers don't lie ...... the numbers sort out the wheat from the chaff .... but Wacko does not like numbers that are real. :
post #37 of 101

You guys think you have all this knowledge.

But from what I can tell, all you really know how to do is ski blue runs with short skis.

You think, just because you know how to make a few railroad tracks that you're an expert and you know it all.

Wrong, short skis breath. You're good when you can ski anywhere on the mountain, and ski it really well.

So like I said. I welcome all comers. I think, after skiing with me for a day, you'll have a whole new appreciation for my training.



This was the part I was taking exception to.

Most of us have not said we "know it all". We are all trying to learn understand and teach each other. By bouncing ideas off each other and trying things out we are all learning. Most of the time I try to stay on the side and watch. when I do give advice, I expect others to challange my ideas if they think they are wrong. I then can re evaluate (as I think I have done often) and learn/grow from the exchange. A lot of my complaint is about how you come across. I have no doubt that you are probably a very fine skier and it has been confirmed by several skiers and instructors. You have many times told us you don't understand the mechanics of what you have learned but still tell us we are doing everything wrong. For many of us the path to our skiing is as important as the getting there because we have to share this info with those we are teaching. For some, the direct path to parallel (skipping steps that you were able to skip) doesn't work. Our challenge is to find a way to relate that to the person that goes and skis 2 times a year and only because they are taking their children to the slopes. They may not do anything else athletic in their normal life other than take out the garbage.. or wash dishes. They may not have a desire to rip up the hill but just get safely down the intermediate (easy blue) so they can watch their kids having fun.

So back to the original question, I think we should be able to freeski in uniform (with the backing of the SSD) This needs to be somewhat regulated by the SS so we don't have instructors skiing way out of their comfort zone while in uniform.

And SCSA Please think how you must come across to others before you post. We know you are passionate about your skiing but no need insult all the instructors because your beliefs and goals are different than ours.

and that's my last take on it in this thread.
post #38 of 101
SCSA, you do come on strong on the internet (personally, I got used to it), but everyone says that you are a great guy. I could kick myself for missing you at Fernie.

Speaking of Fernie, were you on standby at the Rocky Mountain Tours bus tranfer in the Calgary airport at 2:30PM on Feb 20?

Speaking of Fernie again, do you have any video of you skiing. I saw the one you posted (very cool), but that was not you and it was not really skiing. Don't get me wrong, the guys were in critical terrain (turning, scoping, traversing), but it is hard to tell how one skis when turns are not linked.
post #39 of 101
I think it's a great idea to have instructors ski in uniform! Absolutely. I for one would love to see what the current ideal is in terms of new school skiing.

When I was learning to ski, you would often see instructors ski under the lift line. This helped show you what you were aiming for.

I think it would be good advertising for the ski school and result in more bookings.

However, one question...do you need to be a great skier to be an instructor? Probably not. So you may have an instructor or two who would not be doing the ski school a great service by free skiing. Just a thought.
post #40 of 101
Well SCSA does know how to get everyone to think hs pisssed in their corn flakes. I for one think he's a very good skier not that I watched him that much as I was usually in front but he skied very smoothly in very unsettled conditions chop pow and icy moguls with enough of coverage of snow so you never knew if you going to hit snow of ice in a turn. So to say he has a dysfunctional stance is way off. Actually I was looking for Mister Glueboots and didn't see him.
Actually Paul commented that I skied like a instructor which I wasn't sure how to take , as well I don't want to ski like an instructor and I thought that day 30% of the time my skiing I was sucking aZZZ as arm was still pretty sore from hitting a tree the week before and sometimes I just suck.
post #41 of 101
Thread Starter 
dchan is right. No doubt about it, I should be more open and less critical.

All I can say is that ask man from oz. I listened very carefully to what he had to say. He's a pro.

I know man, I was digging on meet you as well.

No, no video - yet. The problem is that I either ski alone or with my buddy Brian and all we do is rip. Really can't take the risk of rippin with a $1400 camera around my neck.

But, I'll get some video next week. What I can do is take the video then go put the camera away in a locker.

Cheers to us!

And back to the topic.
post #42 of 101
Thread Starter 

No no - error!

You rip. You, are my kinda guy - skis 1000 feet of vertical at a time.


How about each area has their own little demonstration team?
post #43 of 101
SCSA and dougw,

Again, I ask you both to please go back and reread my original comment and describe to me what I said that would make both of you come to your conclusions.
I will eventually explain my comments further. I ask in the interim that you both reconsider what you wrote.

Hint: I think it only fair consideration be given to extending a contrite, heartfelt apology. Remember, I have always been a big supporter.
post #44 of 101
As a supervisor, part of my job is skiing around. After classes go out, and if I am not giving a clinic, I go ski. There are about 20 of us on the hill that supervise, and part of our job is to go rip it up in uniform, on the clock, all over the hill. It is the best part of the job. We drop cornices, spin in the park, sneak OB for pow, even ski groomers. We try our best to do a little advertising. Of course, we are all full cert/clinician/examiner types.
post #45 of 101
Skiing in uniform can be good for business. During the day when the older skiers are packing the hill, I will go out and ski moguls using a slow very smooth style that looks effortless from the chair. There are always requests at the SS desk for a bump clinic. :
post #46 of 101
Thread Starter 

Alright, here it is:

You said:
"...I ask you to think about one more thing. Everytime I see someone skiing with their boots locked together making skidded turns I think to myself, "when was he/she last at Solvista or A-Basin for a lesson and when are they going to realize just how disfunctional their stance is"?

C'mon, Rusty, it's so passive aggressive.

You know that SolVista and now A-Basin teach PMTS. So what you're really saying is that they must have been to either A-Basin or SolVista and taken a PMTS lesson because in your mind, you think PMTS is a locked stance - you've said it before. Then, you're saying, indirectly, that PMTS training results in a disfunctional stance.

That, is what set me in motion.

Now, there is one other way to look at it, but not really.

It is remotely possible that you see skiers with their feet locked and you're wanting to send them to A-Basin or Sol Vista for a lesson.

But I don't think so.

Now, if that really was your intention, to send skiers to SolVista or A-Basin for lessons, how come you wouldn't recommend Eldora to them, where you teach?

In any case, even though I don't really know you, you seem like a swell guy - no hurt feelings here.

But I sure would like to rip it up with you guys while the whole mountain is still open...
post #47 of 101
Good grief. Whatta buncha hooie.

Umm, I believed we did ski this year SCSA, but it was early season. Has your skiing changed that much? Yes, you're a strong skier. I'm not really into competitive skiing, but I've heard about enough.

Last year you wouldn't even listen when I suggested that you learn pivot slips, remember?

Ummm, remember my manic laugh in the wild stuff? Would you trust ME not to fall with that fancy video camera?

As the Ramones say... "HEY HO-LET'S GO"
You still have my number. We just had different schedules. That changed beginning of this month. Fridays are off now...

Ohhh, IDEA! Let's start hiking the east wall at A-Basin, when it opens... We'll see who's "X'ng" who. If I hafta "tf" you to teach you some manners, well, I just might!

Just for the record a bunch of us in Breck uniforms were ripping it up two days ago, on a slow day. It was a "clinic" of sorts.

Breckenridge is also working on a "demo team" concept as well. The folks involved in that are pretty amazing skiers and riders.

At the other end, we have our rookies, and other teachers who perhaps don't ski as well as instructors that teach upper levels. Some of the best instructors for beginners and intermediates I have ever met may never "rip" terrain, but I've learned a lot from their teaching skills!

And I was honored to learn from them...
post #48 of 101
Thread Starter 

How about next Friday at the Beav? You and I need to have a meeting in Royal Elk - providing it snows between now and then.

And yes. I'd trust you with my fancy camera.
PM me.

post #49 of 101
Okay my turn.

SCSA, Brian & I had a HUGE day skiing. We skiied the whole mountain. SCSA skis strong and talks strong, all mountain. Strong talkers should not worry anyone who knows there stuff. It was fun and free to ski with SCSA. The cornices where superb with a strong wind blowing the "sand" over the crests making unsighted jumping a breeze. The tree lines where good and bumpy. SCSA skied "Forever" top to bottom with the same strong turn all the way.

SCSA and I shared a beer or two and talked skiing. We agreed on much and disagreed on some. We both have some holes in our technique that need work. I believe I demonstrated to SCSA some varied stance tactics that will make an even more versatile skier.

I think it is a good idea to get really good skiing instructors to rip in public. USA skiing seems to need some OOOOOMMMPPPHHHH. IMHO there are too many rules and not enough "loud" passion. All the passion seems to have gone to the closed environment of pipes and parks and is being lost to the skiing public. Fun can be defined in benign laughter as well as hard core challenge. IMHO I think the whole "on mountain" industry has gone a little to much towards the "controlled and benign" fun as opposed to the "let it all hang out" fun.

Anyway stay calm all, its just words. The industry really needs to get the all mountain freedom passion back into the sport and loud passionate people are required for change.

Great ski days with new friends is what counts because ya never know what the next day holds.

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #50 of 101
Yes - its the industry, not the instructors, who are mandating mellowness. The ski resorts have sold out for fear of litigation and have mandated moderation in everything. If you want to see more top instructors ripping it in uniform all the time, able to catch air under the lift, not worry about getting in trouble for "speeding" . . . you can help by coming over with a small army and thinning out the ranks of the legal and insurance industrys for us!
post #51 of 101

Man, how do you get yourself in these things. I was rippin in uniform all day yep all 240 vertical feet of it.

Ski with you any day bud. Hey, when do you go to the Highlands? Hey, don't forget that age old expression "Shut and ski".


Rip it up

post #52 of 101
[quote]This is going to hurt.[/i]

SCSA--you are wrong. I enjoy a good laugh--doesn't hurt at all!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #53 of 101
Thread Starter 
Nothing like oz to get things back on track.

So. Don't you guys (Barnes, everyone, etc.) think that the industry is pushing carving on groomed runs much more than ripping all over the mountain?

Then, if so, how can this be good for us? The more things get groomed the worse off we are - like Todd says.

But, I don't get it. Wouldn't they sell more lessons if they preached the all-mountain thang?
post #54 of 101
Recently read that 80% of Americans over the age of 25 are now overweight, a number that has nearly doubled in 15 years! Yep - the industry here definately grooms everything too much . . . but are probably catering to the population we have now!

If the ski industry pushed more all-mountain skiing, I'm sure that levels of participation at the higher end in lessons would go up - but it might well drop off at the low end of lessons. And even in strongly Alpine sporting countries, the low end lessons are still the biggest market by far.

I with you in that I definately would like to see less grooming in the U.S. and more emphasis on taking responsibility for yourself, but I'm afraid the chance of that really happening isn't even a blip on the radar unfortunately.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ March 07, 2002 08:40 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Todd M. ]</font>
post #55 of 101
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Todd M.:
you can help by coming over with a small army and thinning out the ranks of the legal and insurance industrys for us! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How did that old joke go: "What do you call a 1000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?"
post #56 of 101
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SCSA:

I think eug makes a very good point. Very tough to get an advanced "heel pusher" or "sperm turner" to take lessons - they think they know it all.

But now if 3 instructors came by and dusted those heel pushers and sperm turners, maybe they'd figure out that they don't know it all and sign up for a few lessons.



Here is my point. I have not had the opportunity to see you ski this year. You have said you widened your stance and I believe you. One of the hallmarks of heel pushers and/or sperm turners is a narrow stance. I thought it a bit strange to hear you chastise these folks when in fact you used to ski with an extrmely narrow stance.

Yes my reference to Solvista and A-Basin involved PMTS. One of my criticisms of PMTS is there seeming insistance or reliance on a very narrow stance. Another is any mention of "lifting or lightening". In no way does this translate into me saying your stance is too narrow today or any mention of pivot slips. You did pivot slips well. Had you listened to me you would have heard me suggest they would improve with less leverage on the front of your boot. You did not listen back then and I would argue you can, at times, fall into the catagory of "knowing all" due to your love for the PMTS teaching system. I think your recent experience in Fernie and with Oz has mitigated your tendency.

I took the level II exam with a PMTS "green" cert who has a great deal of difficulty tipping/carving. As I ski with this person I see turns initiated by "lightening" the inside ski and then the foot rotates, the tail conveges and nearly touches the nearby tail and the tip diverges. The lightening of the inside ski merely serves to take the inside ski off any edge and start skidding. It can certainly be argued this is not what PMTS teaches and is merely poor skiing on the part of this instructor. I can't answer that question. I do know this person has a great deal of difficulty putting two skis on edge to initiate a turn.

I also bristled at your continual diatribe concerning skiing being a competition. You can say what you want, however, I think most folks would suggest skiing is recreational for most and a sport for some. I suppose the best analogy would be driving. A trip down the interstate does not equate to Indy.

In short, I hold little hope of you ever realizing that "dusting" someone would ever be a positive. Yes the nature of my relationship with my consulting business exposes me to a variety of great athletes. The majority of these individuals let their athletic prowess shine and avoid a whole lot of "smack talking".

Think of this in analagous terms. Let's pretend for a moment you took up basketball a couple years ago and went to Coach K's camp at Duke for a couple of weeks. You develope ....let's say..... a fairly good three point shot. You're proud of your three point shooting prowess. You're good at the local YMCA or playground. Where would you fit in with the local high school McDonalds All American, or local college player, or member of a college NCAA participant, or professional player. What would you think of a bunch of middle aged hoopsters who ran around saying, they've "got game"?

Lastly, I could not help but smile when you talked about folks claiming to "know it all". Et tu Brutus? This coming from a guy who skis for a year or two and then condemns every person who has taught the wedge for twenty or thirty years.

Now, you call me "passive aggressive". I will suggest you step out of the penumbra of being competitive. We are all a bunch of very silly middle aged guys when it is all boiled down.

As stated, ├Żou're a great bump skier and I'm sure a wonderful all mountain skier. At age 46, with a knee needing surgery, I doubt I could ever keep pace with you.

Short ski breath? Yes, you cut me right to the core.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ March 08, 2002 06:35 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Rusty Guy ]</font>
post #57 of 101
Back to topic, please. A point no one has brought up. What about your precious privacy??!!!! The personal trainers at our gym never do their own workouts in uniform, lest they turn into the answer lady/man.

On the other hand, it could be a way to solicit privates, but I get the feeling that most of the instructors on this board don't really NEED to do that!
post #58 of 101
Yep its a good point LisaM - during a work cycle what often happens is that you end up with time between lessons/clinics for a couple of runs, and that might happen several times a day. So if instructors had to/or wanted to change out to freeski, they would end up changing jackets several times a day. Unless they had little lockers sitting right out on the snow, it would be a nightmare. So many instructors, even if they would much rather be in their 'civys' to freeski, simply don't have time unless they have 1/2 the day or all day off from working.
post #59 of 101
Okay, so you need reversible jackets!!!
post #60 of 101
This is killing me! Am I missing the point of this thread?

The original question was: "Should ski schools send their top instructors to free ski and pay them to do it to promote/market ski school to upper level skiers?" Is it effective tool to get people to sign up for lessons?

I am sure that nobody would argue that levels 7 and up are usually pretty empty in group lessons. So what can a SS do to attract more people?

Out of 50 replies only 5 or so commented on this issue.
- What does this have to do with privacy? It should be part of the job, if it is considered a good marketing tool. You are not doing it on your day off.
- Of course there are guys/ladies in SS that could not drop a cornice. Of course you would not send them out to do that.
- Of course it takes more than good skiing to be instructor, but it is hard to market your great teaching skills to someone who is a 100 yards away on a chair.
- Of course you would not do it in a family skiing zone where you can piss off ski patrol.
- If you are going to do the jump, you may want to have another person spot you to make sure that you are not going to land on a snowboarder.

Do I need to keep listing all common sense things that one would or would not do as part of their job?

If you consistently saw some quality advanced skiing from SS instructors at the mountain that you go to would this make you more or less likely to sign up for a group lesson? If you saw advanced level group lessons where people were taken up into the chutes/glades/steeps by instructors in SS uniform, not just by celebreties like Eski or Egans or whoever, would you be more likely to sign up for a lesson? Would it change your mind whether or not SS can teach you something and save you your $$$ that you would otherwise spend going to Doug Coombs's camps?
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