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'07 Volkl 185 WC GS FIS Legal?

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 

My daughter is a J2 so FIS GS ski requirements are min 180 L and 23 TR.  She has a pair of those.  

 

I have a pair of '07 Volkl 185 World Cup GS that I have been using for adult racing.  They came from a sponsored racer and supposedly have extra metal in them.  They are very stiff.  The thought was she might want to try them on faster more open sets. 

 

On the ski it says RADUIS >=21m.  Does anyone know the actual TR of this ski?  Some people say it is around a 25m TR.  Does anyone know for sure?

 

Something that leads me to believe these really are "Race Room" skis is that the construction is slightly different from any other Volkls I have seen (and we have had lots of them).  The sidewalls are slightly rounded at the top sheet instead of being square.  Also, there are no numbers on the sidewall.  The serial #s, etc., are printed on the top sheet at the tail of the ski.  That and the flex is stiffer than a new pair of WCs.

 

I measured the stack height & everything else conforms.  I suppose it really doesn't matter until an official starts asking questions.  But, that's not out of the question and don't want anyone thinking we were trying to cheat...

post #2 of 18


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basement Ski Tech View Post

My daughter is a J2 so FIS GS ski requirements are min 180 L and 23 TR.  She has a pair of those.  

 

I have a pair of '07 Volkl 185 World Cup GS that I have been using for adult racing.  They came from a sponsored racer and supposedly have extra metal in them.  They are very stiff.  The thought was she might want to try them on faster more open sets. 

 

On the ski it says RADUIS >=21m.  Does anyone know the actual TR of this ski?  Some people say it is around a 25m TR.  Does anyone know for sure?

 

Something that leads me to believe these really are "Race Room" skis is that the construction is slightly different from any other Volkls I have seen (and we have had lots of them).  The sidewalls are slightly rounded at the top sheet instead of being square.  Also, there are no numbers on the sidewall.  The serial #s, etc., are printed on the top sheet at the tail of the ski.  That and the flex is stiffer than a new pair of WCs.

 

I measured the stack height & everything else conforms.  I suppose it really doesn't matter until an official starts asking questions.  But, that's not out of the question and don't want anyone thinking we were trying to cheat...


There is a link on this page for equipment rules by gender and age.

 

http://www.ussa.org/magnoliaPublic/ussa/en/sports/alpine/rules.html

 

I would think that the ski would be labeled correctly regardless of if it is race stock, regular, or some top secret weapon.   If you want to be sure, you can measure your ski and use this to get an approximate radius sidecut calculation.  That should let you know if your ski is actually way over 21. 

 

PhysicsMan's ski sidecut radius calculator

 http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/2681/physicsman-s-ski-sidecut-radius-calculator

post #3 of 18

25m sounds about right for that ski.  Even if the running length is only 170cm (which I highly doubt), the radius would still be ~23.7m.

It would say >21 because that was, at the time, the only FIS requirement.

post #4 of 18

didn't 07 have a higher stack height? 

post #5 of 18

It's not legal... at least not FIS legal, but I have no idea about USSA rules. For skis to be FIS legal, radius should be marked and should comply with current FIS rules. That is >23m for women. If ski has radius marked as less then 23m it's not legal, even if actual radius is more then 23m. If you check it close, you will see skis (GS, SG and DH) don't have radius marked in actual radius but like >23m, >27m etc.. This means radius is AT LEAST 23m. Normally 180-181cm GS skis have radius of 23m, but longer skis have radius more then 23m (when talking about women skis), even though all are marked same way (R >23m).

post #6 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post

It's not legal... at least not FIS legal, but I have no idea about USSA rules. For skis to be FIS legal, radius should be marked and should comply with current FIS rules. That is >23m for women. If ski has radius marked as less then 23m it's not legal, even if actual radius is more then 23m. If you check it close, you will see skis (GS, SG and DH) don't have radius marked in actual radius but like >23m, >27m etc.. This means radius is AT LEAST 23m. Normally 180-181cm GS skis have radius of 23m, but longer skis have radius more then 23m (when talking about women skis), even though all are marked same way (R >23m).


 

Primoz: USSA is 175@21m but FIS/ENL Jr. races follow FIS WC rules.

 

185@>21m almost certainly measures greater than 23m (example: my 180@>21m i.GS RDs are marked 23.8m in smallprint). So the question is whether they enforce the marking rules - its not as if she'd actually be cheating the size rules. And whether somebody would submit a protest just to be contrary.

 

Life would probably be "easier" on a pair of current 183@>23m women's GSs rather than a stiff old male ski, but she'll have thighs like Anja Pärson!

 

post #7 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post

didn't 07 have a higher stack height? 



Stack height has been reduced since '06-'07, but this ski with Marker race place & binding measures right at 50mm.

post #8 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post

It's not legal... at least not FIS legal, but I have no idea about USSA rules. For skis to be FIS legal, radius should be marked and should comply with current FIS rules. That is >23m for women. If ski has radius marked as less then 23m it's not legal, even if actual radius is more then 23m. If you check it close, you will see skis (GS, SG and DH) don't have radius marked in actual radius but like >23m, >27m etc.. This means radius is AT LEAST 23m. Normally 180-181cm GS skis have radius of 23m, but longer skis have radius more then 23m (when talking about women skis), even though all are marked same way (R >23m).


I read the USSA & FIS equipment rules prior to posting and was aware of the marking rule.  However, if it were common knowledge or there was some documented source that the ski was >=23m then you would be OK unless you ran into an anal TD or some jerk trying to get you DQed on a technicality.  So, I posted hoping someone would know and could direct me to the info.

post #9 of 18
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squawker View Post




 

Primoz: USSA is 175@21m but FIS/ENL Jr. races follow FIS WC rules.

 

185@>21m almost certainly measures greater than 23m (example: my 180@>21m i.GS RDs are marked 23.8m in smallprint). So the question is whether they enforce the marking rules - its not as if she'd actually be cheating the size rules. And whether somebody would submit a protest just to be contrary.

 

Life would probably be "easier" on a pair of current 183@>23m women's GSs rather than a stiff old male ski, but she'll have thighs like Anja Pärson!

 


You hit it on the head - the question is whether they will enforce the marking rules.

 

She has a pair of current Volkl WC 180/23m skis, but would like something stiffer.  Dad is trying to be cheap and avoid buying new Atomic GS skis for her (I've already bought 6 pair of skis this fall for my ski racing kids).  Why couldn't they have picked basketball or wrestling for a winter sport?

post #10 of 18

Additional issue:

 

Mminimum waist width must be 65mm or greater. They may not be

post #11 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Additional issue:

 

Mminimum waist width must be 65mm or greater. They may not be


Atomicman:  I checked that too.  67mm at the narrowest.

post #12 of 18
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post


 


There is a link on this page for equipment rules by gender and age.

 

http://www.ussa.org/magnoliaPublic/ussa/en/sports/alpine/rules.html

 

I would think that the ski would be labeled correctly regardless of if it is race stock, regular, or some top secret weapon.   If you want to be sure, you can measure your ski and use this to get an approximate radius sidecut calculation.  That should let you know if your ski is actually way over 21. 

 

PhysicsMan's ski sidecut radius calculator

 

 http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/2681/physicsman-s-ski-sidecut-radius-calculator


crgildart:  when I plugged the measurements into Physicsman's excel calc it says 24.1m TR

 

Probably wouldn't do any good to print it out, laminate it, and tape it to the ski smile.gif

post #13 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basement Ski Tech View Post




I read the USSA & FIS equipment rules prior to posting and was aware of the marking rule.  However, if it were common knowledge or there was some documented source that the ski was >=23m then you would be OK unless you ran into an anal TD or some jerk trying to get you DQed on a technicality.  So, I posted hoping someone would know and could direct me to the info.



It's not a question of whether the TD is anal or not. It is a question of whether one of the other coaches wants to protest. If another coach protests, the TD has to follow the rules, which for FIS are that the ski must be stamped by the factory with the number 23. A ski without the right number stamped on it is illegal regardless of what the actual radius is. I've been a jury advisor at both USSA and FIS races. In either case, if your daughter is competitive for a podium in the race, you can expect someone to protest. At USSA races, if your daughter is not competitive, she probably wont be protested. FIS races are much more intense, but again I doubt she would be protested if she is in the back of the pack.  Making it more complicated is that the coaches in some regions are more strict than in other regions. The person you really need to ask is your daughter's coach. He or she is the one who is going to catch grief from the other coaches. Our team has a policy that all of our skiers must be on legal skis. 

post #14 of 18
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richr View Post





It's not a question of whether the TD is anal or not. It is a question of whether one of the other coaches wants to protest. If another coach protests, the TD has to follow the rules, which for FIS are that the ski must be stamped by the factory with the number 23. A ski without the right number stamped on it is illegal regardless of what the actual radius is. I've been a jury advisor at both USSA and FIS races. In either case, if your daughter is competitive for a podium in the race, you can expect someone to protest. At USSA races, if your daughter is not competitive, she probably wont be protested. FIS races are much more intense, but again I doubt she would be protested if she is in the back of the pack.  Making it more complicated is that the coaches in some regions are more strict than in other regions. The person you really need to ask is your daughter's coach. He or she is the one who is going to catch grief from the other coaches. Our team has a policy that all of our skiers must be on legal skis. 


Richr:  I'll take your reasoning as settling the question.  Case closed.  If a coach protests it will end up a DQ.  Good advice about talking with the coach as they are the ones that would deal with the issue at the race.  She has been on the podium at a FIS race.   Looks like dad has to spend some more dough on new skis, again...

post #15 of 18

Basement, where do you ski? I ask because here in Central division (mostly ENL FIS) I GUARANTEE nobody would protest if she showed up with those beasts. Not sure if Rocky or Intermountain would be as lax.

post #16 of 18

The JURY makes decisions at sanctioned competitions, not the TD (Technical Delegate).  The TD is Jury Chair with equal voting rights.

post #17 of 18

Get a stencil.

post #18 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

Get a stencil.



Depraved minds think alike

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