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What separates advanced and expert skiers? - Page 3

post #61 of 87
[quote]Originally posted by FastMan:
Quote:
Rusty, it makes me cringe when I hear such sentiments come from an instructor, much less a level 3. I can only attribute it to the fact you are a relatively new instructor and your basis of opinions are probably dominated by the programing you have received in current PSIA pop focus themes. You seem to grasp onto them with patriotic zeal but you should understand that these themes tend to blow in and out with the wind, change with the seasons, so they only should be considered a part of the base of knowledge you need to gather.

Because there is much more to developing a broad understanding of the sport of skiing than having a firm grasp of the current party line I would encourage you to keep an open mind, and listen closely when others with years and experience well beyond your own offer ideas that seem to contrast somehow with what you have been told. On closer inspection you may find it's not so much a conflict of ideology as just another piece of the puzzle you were unaware of which can help you gain a better understanding of what this sport is all about.

Roto and Nolo are presenting ideas here that are crucial for the developing instructor to comprehend, don't just brush them off because they're ideas don't seem to fit your present picture. Take a closer look at your picture because I guarantee you they do belong in there, you just might have to do a little rearranging.
Fastman,

I guess the first thing I would encourage you to do is cringe away. You have done some level of research, because, yes I am a relatively new instructor and relatively new level III. So that is a basis for a snide comment? I'm kinda proud of the speed with which I attained my level III. In fact, you have no idea how long I've been on skis and what my other background is in terms of teaching and/or coaching.

Please explain how my thoughts are part of a "party line"? What party are you a member of? The last time I heard comments like this were from an old friend here, and you sir are no Jack Kennedy. In addition, please explain when, where, how, or why any of my comments were an effort to "brush off" anyone?

I will keep taking a closer look at my picture.....let's you skip the rest of the "Dear Abby" advice.

[ April 22, 2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Rusty Guy ]
post #62 of 87
[quote]Originally posted by Rusty Guy:
yes I am a relatively new instructor and relatively new level III. So that is a basis for a snide comment?

FASTMAN:
Wasn't my intention at all.

RUSTY
I'm kinda proud of the speed with which I attained my level III.

FASTMAN:
You should be.

RUSTY:
Please explain how my thoughts are part of a "party line"

FASTMAN:
You will discover this yourself as you continue to expand your base of knowledge.

RUSTY:
What party are you a member of?

FASTMAN:
I don't think you've heard of it yet, but once you investigate it you might find some things about it you like.

RUSTY:
The last time I heard comments like this were from an old friend here, and you sir are no Jack Kennedy.

FASTMAN;
That's OK, the Kennedys are great Americans but not known for their skiing prowess.

RUSTY:
In addition, please explain when, where, how, or why any of my comments were an effort to "brush off" anyone?

FASTMAN:
I did not say you did. I suggested you not brush off their ideas, I wasn't refering your personal interaction with the people. I haven't witnessed you be purposely rude to anyone on this forum.

RUSTY:
I will keep taking a closer look at my picture.....let's you skip the rest of the "Dear Abby" advice.

FASTMAN:
Good idea.

[ April 22, 2003, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: FastMan ]
post #63 of 87
Man Rusty, what kinda pills are you on right now. After my accident three weeks ago I was on some pain killers that made me a little unlike myself for about two weeks. I didn't post a thing during that period as there was nothing in my brain that worked correctly. Maybe some here think that nothing has changed. If so, I don't wanna here it.

I think you got you're level III in about the same length of time that I did. Epic ski was a big help in that regard. Just after getting that pin I think that I had a similar reaction to what I pecieved as ski intructors who simply did not tow the mark. Check my posts I think you will find that I expoused a lot of the so called "party line zeal" so I think you are entitled to some criticism as far as I am concerned.

I am at another crossroads of sorts again. Skiing is not the only thing that my mind is good at and someone is dangling 6 to 7 figures in front of my nose again. A friend just sold his business for 680 millon and is pushing my buttons. :

[ April 22, 2003, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Pierre ]
post #64 of 87
Rusty,

You, very obviously, have a great passion for what you are doing.
That's good (no, really good), but do me a favor and print this
thread out. Put it in an envelope and forget about it for 10 or
so years. In 2013 when you read it again, I absolutely guarantee
you that things will look somewhat different.

Thanks for working so hard and caring so much. Keep an open mind. Sometimes lifes greatest lessons are in the least likely
places. A long-time instructor friend of mine spends time on
the mountain with special olympics kids. He tells me that that
experience has greatly improved his teaching over the years.

You've accomplished a lot in a short time; but do understand,
you ain't there yet!
post #65 of 87
At the risk of being a marginal instructor, I'd have to say that I see balance as the key to better skiing. I teach better balance in every lesson I teach, no matter what level. Sometimes we might just touch on it, but I feel that every guest needs to understand just how important it is to their skiing.

During balance drills, I reckon that there is every chance that they are going to feel that glimmer of how balance works, and once they feel that, they will have a vital key to their own ski improvement.

I totally agree with the way PSIA is promoting balance as the foundation of everything else...I've definitely got that message from them loud and clear.

Regarding the depressing sight of marginal instructors teaching and skiing poorly: yes, it gets to me too, Rusty!
post #66 of 87
"Marginal" teachers, "marginal" skiers....
There is something about this labelling that has bothered me in the forum this winter, beyond the fact that it certainly opens up the labellers themselves to increased scrutiny. Rusty, with all fond and due respect to you (and actually because of it), I challenge your occasional propensity to label your peers for a couple reasons. Since you are plainspoken I will be too.
You've admitted to being a lousy bump skier yourself. Where does that fit in? "Marginal" relative to what? Kinda reminds me of what I heard someone say once of a brilliant National Demo Team member: "he can't ski." It all begins to sound like a bunch of neighborhood dogs pissing on the same fire hydrant.
Having been both a marginal skier and teacher at one point in my career and in a relative sense lifelong to people like Ingemar Stenmark, Janica Kostelic and the occasional clinician who will knock my socks off ...negative labelling doesn't constructively foster professional development and growth among our peers especially when it is done by fellow educators. Instead of raising the bar for others let's begin with ourselves in a more important dimension.
Our sport is full of egos like any other and I hope that you, Rusty, don't join the braying dogpack. The greatest teachers I've ever met are well aware of the trap of ego. They subordinate theirs to a love of skiing and people so those in their presence almost involuntarily flower and grow beyond whatever behaviors seem so lame and laughable to others limited in compassion and long range vision. These great teachers attract, rather than exclude and repel.
Benchmarks like gold pins are illusionary indicators of excellence in the long run if not accompanied by a measure of healthy humility earned alongside the skills and knowledge it should take to get one. Now that you're even more of a role model for others, please take this bitter pill in the loving spirit it is offered. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
post #67 of 87
Sitzmark,

I didn't have time to respond to you originally. The post is about advanced and expert skiers and the difference. I have said repeatedly that I am no expert. I attempted, particularly among the ranks of the full time pros to differentiate between the two catagories.

Vera,

I have said before that I am saddened by the "state" of sking and teaching in our industry. Think of it in these terms. I suspect the average lesson given at Vail is considerably better than the average lesson given at smaller resorts. You may not be seeing nor be plagued with what I observed. I do think PSIA does a very good job at clinics and exams. I have nothing against the "marginal" skiers in our ranks.I think all ought to be able to do a decent wedge christe or open parallel demo. I'm not talking demo team stuff, just let's get rid of the heel pushing and rotary pushoff. I do have something against marginal ski pro's who are not making any attempt to improve. I really think a great many lousy demos are being done by ski instructors in Colorado and a lot of dis-information being put forth during lessons. Am I too vocal? Many have argued that is the case. Are my demos great? No, but I can assure you I'm working every day to improve. I could certainly sit idley by and say all is well. It isn't IMHO.

We wonder why lesson revenues are on the decline? Ski school business may be great at the Vail resorts. It was not at Eldora. Blame the economy? Sure, you bet. I simply think individual instructors need to look in the mirror and consider product quality. I contend the items I've cited are a few of the reasons. Remember....A FEW.

Again....never said I was an expert nor do I contend "I'm anywhere". Just sick of some of the lousy product being put forth.

I do appreciate your well thought out comments.

Back to the topic. Are the deliniations that I outlined inherent differences between advanced and expert skiers? Lastly, I am of the opinion that good balance is created via good movements and not vice versa. If that differs from the viewpoints of others.....gee, I'm real sorry. Perhaps as I grow as an individual my opinion will change.

[ April 23, 2003, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: Rusty Guy ]
post #68 of 87
Rusty I hear what you are saying but I will tell you what happened to me. I was very critical of what I termed as terminal level I's and II's that were stagnant for many years. Some of the instructors that I had little regard for started comming to me and asking me how I did it so fast and how it was possible that my learning curve continuted at a fast pace well beyond the level III pin.

I started taking a different approach and working with some of these instructors using a movements based approach rather than a core concepts based approach. The results in some of these stagnant instructors was totally remarkable. Many made more progress in one hour than they had made in several seasons. I can surmise that the reason is because those instructors had a different method of learning than was being offered in the standard clinics. Most were quickly able to relate the core movements approach back to the core concepts. Suddenly the shoe was on the other foot. Those instructors quickly blamed the quality of the clinics being offered for their stagnant progress. This circulated back through the ski school and caused me much grief.

The gist of all of this is that the finger can be pointed in both directions for the blame of poor instructors. Second is that there is more than just PSIA's core concepts way of teaching. Core movements teaching is what Harald Harb favors. I am certainly not adverse to using a Core movements approach, especially for thinkers and feeler type learners even though I don't totally subscribe to Harald Harbs version of core movments. Conversely some people trive on a core concepts approach, especially doer and watcher types of learners.
post #69 of 87
Rusty Guy
Quote:
Advanced skiers are static...Expert skiers move with fluidity
Advanced skiers skid...Expert skiers engage edges.
Advanced skiers use a hard edge set..Experts seek neutral.
Advanced skiers leave a platform...Experts never created one.
Advanced skiers turn upper bodies...Experts lower body
Advanced skiers go...Experts often have to slow.
This fits in pretty well with what I look for. Everything that you has laid out is what I look for when a skier is moving through the neutral/initiation phase of the turns.
post #70 of 87
Pierre,

My experience has been eerily similar to yours. As you well know, I've had the luck to clinic with several great teachers twenty to thirty days per annum for the past four years. I would say their teachings are not strictly along the lines of PSIA core concepts. In the past, I have given ample credit to folks like Chris Easton, Bob Barnes, Jen Metz, and Robin May.

I don't know about PSIA-Central, however, I walked away from my level III clinic this winter shaking my head. I disagreed with quite a few of the ideas put forth. I talked to a few examiners who reinforced my feelings.

The most common area of confusion out here are wedge christie's. I've heard the biomechanics explained a multitude of ways and have seen just as many demos. Bob Barnes and PSIA-RM are working hard to debunk the confusion and have produced a tape with demos for every exam level. Attend a clinic at a local mountain and you see a lot of dazed over expressions. The tape Bob made is tremendous.

Here it is in a nutshell. I'm not suggesting every pro should be able to ski bumps like Jen Metz, crud like Bob Barnes, or steeps like Chris Easton.

I do think every pro ought to be able to do a wedge christie without an abstem and an open parallel turn in a decent stance, with no hard edge set and no accompanying rotary pushoff. I think a pro ought to be able to describe rotary push off and have some semblance of idea of the cause and symptoms. Go to a line-up at your resort next winter and ask ten pros to describe an abstem. We had a level II in our locker room (level II was passed over two decades ago) bemoaning a student doing rotary pushups. I thought about Jack LaLane right away.

I'm suggesting a modicum of understanding and ability. The industry is prone to simply slap jackets on folks and I suggest that is hurting the industry. I may experience the grief you describe, however, I won't stand idly by and be part of the stagnation.

[ April 22, 2003, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: Rusty Guy ]
post #71 of 87
Pierre, your comments about teaching/learning styles struck a chord with me. I'm often bored in PSIA or PSIA-styled clinics, and am a thinker/feeler. In fact, one clinic we were told to watch teh trainer and then do what they were doing, and all I could see was some skiing (there was something about ankle flexion apparently).
I need to know what we are doing, and why we're doing it! And then how.
The best PSIA clinic I attended was the guest-centered teaching one last season...no watching and doing involved.
You may have illuminated me on this one!
post #72 of 87
Rusty, business has big challenges in Vail these days just like everywhere else. We face instructor layoffs and management is taking a hard look at our compensation picture. Product quality may be a bigger concern here than Eldora. Big organizations are like big ships -they can be hard to turn and maneuver. We have plenty of longtime instructors here who have chosen to stop growing. There are plenty of problems with the industry as a whole. You're preaching to the choir.
What will you do about these issues besides rant and work on your own skiing? Telling your peers they're marginal skiers and teachers may feel cathartic but many well-intentioned, intelligent people do not thrive on being told they suck. In effect, you marginalize them further and thus make the problem for the industry and your organization worse. You as a potential mentor alienate some of the very people you could help develop with your skills and knowledge. As a role model you've violated the very first precept for effective teaching - establishing a climate of trust and respect - along with one of the primary principles within movement analysis - non-judgmental description. [img]smile.gif[/img]
Many in the public detest the whole idea of ski school because some ski instructors are arrogant and pedantic, a stereotype plaguing our industry. Your recent posts begin to sound like that when I hope that's not who you really are. Several posts here from longtime pros are trying gently to tell you that. Can you hear them?
Please, Rusty, lighten up.
PS I hope you feel better soon.
post #73 of 87
Quote:
Originally posted by vera:
You're preaching to the choir.

What will you do about these issues besides rant and work on your own skiing?

Telling your peers they're marginal skiers and teachers may feel cathartic but many well-intentioned, intelligent people do not thrive on being told they suck.

In effect, you marginalize them further and thus make the problem for the industry and your organization worse.

You as a potential mentor alienate some of the very people you could help develop with your skills and knowledge.

As a role model you've violated the very first precept for effective teaching - establishing a climate of trust and respect - along with one of the primary principles within movement analysis - non-judgmental description.


Many in the public detest the whole idea of ski school because some ski instructors are arrogant and pedantic, a stereotype plaguing our industry.

Several posts here from longtime pros are trying gently to tell you that. Can you hear them?

Please, Rusty, lighten up.

I guess my first comment would be concerning my being pedantic....and the response would be physician heal thyself.

I will do what management asked me to do and that was help train. You are making a rather unfair conclusion by assuming I have told anyone they are a marginal skier or that they suck. You make a further jump to loosely infer that I'm part of an arrogant and pedantic group of instructors plaguing our industry. I will say this, we don't have a host of arrogant or pedantic pros at Eldora. The majority of the teachers are likeable folks from the Boulder area.

I think your painting a monster here that exists either in the deep recesses of your mind or that you have encountered at Vail. I think you made mention of that in the past. I have spent long hours helping a wide range of folks get ready for their level I, II, or III exams. All they had to do is ask.

If this isn't the place to discuss the issue of "marginality" where is it? I won't stand in the back rows of the locker room and talk about it behind peoples back. That does plague Eldora and I won't be a party to that. Are there issues here that are taboo?

You mentioned this had been troubling you for some time. I THINK I began this topic long ago by alluding to the fact that as a child, I recall the vast majority of instructors as very strong skiers, perhaps short on teaching prowess. I recalled taking lessons from Europeans in the sixties who were great skiers, however, they frightened the kids. That was the genesis of my tagging some pros as being marginal skiers. Vera....I'm sorry but we have them.Marginal skiers exist at ski schools. If they teach the right stuff that's fine. They do not in all cases do so.Again sorry, we have marginal teachers as well.

You have asked me to lighten up. Would you prefer me to say we have a marginal product taught by nice people? I can live with that. Pierre has suggested the blame my lie partially with PSIA and/or the host mountain. I don't disagree.

Again, back to the topic. I believe there are few "experts" that I know. I was fortunate enough to teach a group of ladies this winter for 10 weeks. A majority ended the season skiing our most difficult terrain. Does that make them advanced skiers or expert skiers? Doesn't expertise involve some continuom of time?

[ April 23, 2003, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: Rusty Guy ]
post #74 of 87
Rusty you're topic about marginal instructors was just fine. I don't see a problem with that at all.
But let's not be too modest here, I'll call you an expert skier if you won't. That doesn't mean you're Doug Coombs but it does mean than when you rent a pair of skis you're not going to check the intermediate box.
cheers

ps: for the knee get a cryo cuff you can take it anywhere and get ice at a deli to fill it up. Best thing I ever had during my three knee surgeries. (I even lent it to Wags on this site a couple years ago. If you want to borrow it pm me. I've got both the med. and large cuffs (if i can find them))
I always hated using ice before I had surgery. Then I realized it's better than 6 ibuprofen. Ice = aaahhhh. Cryo cuff makes it easy and you can ride around in the car with it on.
post #75 of 87
Whoops, wrong thread. Feel free to delete if desired.

[ April 23, 2003, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: AltaSkier ]
post #76 of 87
Quote:
Originally posted by Rusty Guy:
You have asked me to lighten up.
Lighten up, Francis...
post #77 of 87
...eewwps...DP

[ April 23, 2003, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: Roto ]
post #78 of 87
Quote:
I get the impression that there are very few Level 8s and 9s who patronize ski schools. The Levels 7-9 skiers I see taking lots of lessons are ski instructors in training. Would it be fair to say that Level I Certs ski at Level 7, Level II Certs ski at Level 8, and Level III Certs ski at Level 9?

Is a Level III Cert skiing at the level of an Examiner? Does an Examiner ski at the level of the Demo Team? Usually not.

Can we say that a Level III is an expert? ...Nolo
So are you saying that you can become a PSIA level I certified instructor if you are a level 7 skier? Most consider level 7s to be high intermediates to lower advanced skiers. Skiers who make strong parallel turns on blue terrain and are beginning to explore off-piste skiing, moguls, and black diamond terrain. Can someone actually become a PSIA level I certified instructor at this skill level?

Level 8s are strong skiers who ski parallel on most terrain who need to refine their skills, rhythm and finesse in varied snow conditions on steeper off-piste terrain. Level 8s are solid advanced to low level experts. Can you become a level II certified instructor while still developing your skills in these conditions?

Level 9s are experts. They ski the entire mountain in varied conditions strongly with dynamic parallel turns and confidence. Level 9 classes are usually a tour of the mountain with confidence building tips and suggestions thrown in. Maybe you don’t see a lot of level 9s taking lessons because they are already great skiers. Maybe they run into problems somewhere along the way, or wish to work on some aspect of their skiing, or find themselves at a new mountain and are looking for a local guide to show them the goods (which, by the way, is a bargain). Then, maybe they’ll sign up for a level 9 lesson.

I would hope that when I sign up for an upper level lesson, my instructors are at least upper level 9s if not 10s. I would think and hope that even PSIA Level 1 instructors are at this level. But, maybe my expectations of PSIA certification levels, even level IIIs, are higher than what is the standard.
post #79 of 87
The instructing profession is, in fact, rife with mediocracy if not marginalism both in technique and teaching. My opinion, based on years of battling it as both fact and perception.
The list of contributing factors is endless, and many are bemoaned frequently on this site, NSAA meetings, clinics and lockerooms.
Pin-polishing relics, part-time posers, system haters, know-it-alls, never-coulds, arrogant-were-onces, incoherent trainers, under-paid would-have-beens, pissed-off-flunkers, backliners, trench warriors, one-year-wonders, the timid, the braggard, the swiss army knives, crossovers, crossdressers, heros and losers. They all make up the disfunctional family of ski schools. It is just like life.
Depending on your particular "ski world view", your motivations and expectations, your cohorts are labeled as are you.
Rusty Guy, as I know him, is earnest, hardworking and honest. He is very charitable with his time both with his students and co-workers. His intentions and actions are consistant and honourable. His lessons are outstanding.
I would say without hesitation that any school across the country would be blessed to have about 20-30 Rustys.
post #80 of 87
rustyedge:
You can become certified at PSIA level 1 at less than a level 7 skier and can become level II certified as a level 7 skier. In my opinion the level III exam standard is at the threshold of the PSIA level 9 slot. Really gives you a warm fuzzy feeling doesn't it.

Level 9 is a very wide range all the way from a bare minimum PSIA level III to a world cup winner. The PSIA level 9 entry is where I would tend to place the entry into expert status. Remember that in the levels, the terrain is only suggested terrain and the technical ability is really the standard. Also remember that PSIA is not the only thing out there but is really what this forum tends to be most familiar with.
post #81 of 87
At my level 1 exam in Eastern, there were several people who were definitely NOT level 7s. One boy skiied parallel, only because he didn't know how to wedge (or snowplough). He clamped his legs together and pushed his feet around using twisting and body leverage, and was not in control much of the time. He passed. Everyone passed.
post #82 of 87
Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
rustyedge:
You can become certified at PSIA level 1 at less than a level 7 skier and can become level II certified as a level 7 skier. In my opinion the level III exam standard is at the threshold of the PSIA level 9 slot. Really gives you a warm fuzzy feeling doesn't it.

Level 9 is a very wide range all the way from a bare minimum PSIA level III to a world cup winner. The PSIA level 9 entry is where I would tend to place the entry into expert status. Remember that in the levels, the terrain is only suggested terrain and the technical ability is really the standard. Also remember that PSIA is not the only thing out there but is really what this forum tends to be most familiar with.
WOW.
post #83 of 87
Pierre,

You know I almost said the same thing, however, I'm not sure you and I are correct in our initial assertion/thought. My initial/gut feeling was rustyedge's question went a long way to describe the marginal skiers I have described and been criticized for identifying.

I don't have the documents in front of me, however, rustyedge's description of a level 7 students describes an entry level bump/off piste skier.

At the level I exam there is a bump/crud run where some degree of proficiency must be demonstrated. It can't be a student "exploring bumps" for the first time or even in the initial stage.
post #84 of 87
Now everbody knows why I love my old boss. Perhaps that's why my tone/tenor is a little "pissed off." The guy was a delight to work for. I have been walking around in a daze for two weeks. He has a daughter my kids age who is a perfect child and a wonderful wife.

I think some of the folks Robin described in his inimitable way drug the whole ship down. Yes he made a few changes and in my mind they were all good. Half the ski school spent the first two months of the season bitching and moaning. Yes the Boulder economy was bad. Yes our numbers stunk. Line-up was a ghost-town in December and everyone was looking around saying what the hell is going on?

Robin spent the majority of the winter with two cracked ribs that he got helping someone learn pivot slips and a horrible case of pneumonia. Never once did the guy flinch or moan.

Someone suggested I put one of my prior posts in an envelope and save it for ten years. Put this in an envelope and give it to your little girl in ten years my friend.

Your father is a true gentleman, a great skier, one hell of a nice guy, and an honest man.
post #85 of 87
Rusty, I agree with you whole heartedly. I was pissed off before the season started but I decided to see how it would go. The changes Robin put in were good, the first time I got paid to run a clinic I could'nt beleive it. Over Christmas when the ski techs did'nt show and we were over run with kids in the childrens center Robin starts cranking out skis to get the lessons out. Well I guess what I' trying to say is Robin I enjoyed working for you I think you are a true profesional and I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors.

Ken
P.S. I think management made a big mistake and I've been upset about it to.
post #86 of 87
Quote:
Originally posted by Roto:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Rusty Guy:
You have asked me to lighten up.
Lighten up, Francis... </font>[/quote]Hey all. that's just a movie quote from Stripes, directed at the overall panties-in-a-bunch tone this thread has developed.

When I go back and read it. I don't see RustyGuy as the one escalating that tone so much, though I am understanding as to why the 'storm' of sorts has developed around the posting of his opinions. Not that anyone is doing anything "wrong" in my opinion. I mean opinion is what this is all about! But I can see how pulling that quote from Rusty makes it seem like I'm directing it only at him when I'm not.

You know, being judgemental is NOT a bad thing. Being judgemental is critical to everyday life. How else do you choose who friends are? Who to involve in your life to a greater degree? How do you choose a marriage partner, or business partner if not through judgement?? I guess I have kept my posts relatively quiet in this one 'cuz I'm tired of the fights that can break out (not just in here, but at work and on the slopes too) when people really start standing up for their opinions and wanting to influence the direction things are going on an industry-wide basis. But I'm tired of all that and you know. It's all about fun anyway. No guests would come up if it weren't for the fun factor.

And that has become one of the things I will fight for in clinics and training events... that FUN is a Professional Responsibility in our business. Hardly any people out on the slopes, if asked, will tell you lessons are fun. Lots of clinics and training situation DO NOT MODEL fun experiences for instructors to follow.

How does this relate to this thread?? With a twist, expert instructors /trainers not only teach a good technical lesson, they teach a fun one at the same time. That's one thing that differentiates expert and advanced instructors..

Whatever it's worth...

And DP... that was a double post...eeewwwps...

[ April 24, 2003, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Roto ]
post #87 of 87
Roto,

Thanks. I'm also glad to see an Eldora Bear chime in. If there is one thing Storm and I do it's have fun at work!
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