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For women only

post #1 of 44
Thread Starter 
A couple of years ago we had a clinic at our area called FWO and staffed it with women instructors. The students liked it, but the male instructors cried foul. They still call it FWO, but management relented and staffed male instructors as well as female instructors based on the usual criteria: Level IIIs get the advanced groups, etc. During the split, one of the women students came up to me and said, "If you put me in a man's group, I want a refund!" I said, "Don't worry, you can join my group." She's been with me ever since.

Just wondering, in your opinion, did management blow a good program by contradicting its own advertisement of For Women Only? Or was that woman just a typical hysterical female with unreasonable expectations?
post #2 of 44
They blew it.
post #3 of 44
Funny you should mention this. When they told me that Okemo may not have enough female instructors to fill the demand for the women's spree, I suggested that they let Tog teach one of the classes. TOG, Where are you????

But its an interesting dilemna. Some men are incredible teachers for women, especially those that take the time to study the female anatomy, and not only from "empirical" research.

But some women have "issues". One of the gyms I work at is all women. Some women join because it just happens to be one of the best gyms in Boston. Others have religous or various psychological issues. And for some, its their "orientation" and preference, but I'm not going there.

We do have a few male instructors, who are quite talented. It always amazes me that someone chooses to join a women's gym, but the "worships" the male instructors.

Which brings me to an interesting point. I hope none of you guys get offended by this, but there's just something about a guy in a ski instructor's uniform! (speaking objectively, of course, I am, as you know, a happily married woman!} It really does not matter how young or old the guy is, or if he's in shape, or if he's traditionally good looking. I don't know, there's just an aura...

One of the things about being in an all women's group, is that there tends to be less competition. But put one guy in a group of women, and what do women usually do? Compete for the guys attention! So much for learning to ski!
That being said, I don't think you can legally disallow your male instructors to teach the class.

Hopefully, they pick the one's who understand Q angle! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 05, 2001 01:20 PM: Message edited 2 times, by Lisamarie ]</font>
post #4 of 44
Lisamarie- I appreciate your input. The whole deal bothers me. I think it's wrong. My wife works in a very male environment, and as a result, she has had to scratch and claw.

I've asked to work these classes and have been told no. It's "Woman's Wednesday"! I'm sure I could make an issue out of it and win the battle.

Who would win the war?
post #5 of 44
Q angle, Q angle, Hmmmm, I know it is in here somewhere....
post #6 of 44
I say the managment blew it but in a different way.

They should continue to advertise the FWO as instruction "designed for Women" but note to the prospective students that there may be some very well qualified male instructors/pros. Then give the customer a place to let the managment or scheduler know that they "only want a Female instructor" or doesn't matter. Then you don't get any "not what's advertised" but if all the students specify they want female instructors, the guy with an ego thing will get the hint!
post #7 of 44
Dr. GO


You are very cool!
post #8 of 44
D-chan has the best solution. I taught at a gym in NYC that had men's and women's nights. I taught the Tuesday Men's night class, an extremely gay guy taught the thursday men's class.
The guys who clearly wanted to identify themselves as sraight took my class, the ones who wanted to let everyone know they were gay took the other class.
Those who were just interested in learning took the class with the instructor who was most appropriate for them.
post #9 of 44
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lisamarie:
D-chan has the best solution. ....... the ones who wanted to let everyone know they were gay took the other class.
Those who were just interested in learning took the class with the instructor who was most appropriate for them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did not see anything in dchans post about GAY guys or GALS. I must be missing a bunch of stuff.

I will clear my cache and have another drink, cause I just don't see it LM?
post #10 of 44
Dr Go,
What's open tonight? Costco here in SF has E. Guigal 1998 Cote Rotie Brune et Blonde de Guigal for 30.00!

I bought one bottle and then realized I better go back and get some more. I sure hope it's still there tomorrow!
post #11 of 44
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dchan:
Dr Go,
What's open tonight? Costco here in SF has E. Guigal 1998 Cote Rotie Brune et Blonde de Guigal for 30.00!

I bought one bottle and then realized I better go back and get some more. I sure hope it's still there tomorrow!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, just go down to the Cellar and pick one out. I did buy a case of Clos Du Bois Zin today, good price. The wine is OK but for entertaining not for me. I drink the good stuff. It is always a delima when you get down to that last bottle of a great wine. I usualy look like this.
post #12 of 44
I meant what bottle was open tonight, not store. The cote rotie is for my cellar. someday it may get as deep as yours!

I know what you mean about getting down to that last bottle! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
post #13 of 44
Okay, perhaps it was a poor analogy. D-chan suggested that the Ski School let the guys who wanted to teach the Women's course go ahead and do so, but give the customer the option of what gender they want their instructor to be .
At the gym, for "boys nights" there was the option of either a male or female instructor.
I guess the point I'm getting at, is people have specific reasons for choosing the GENDER of an instructor. And for some, that concept is irrelevant.
But it is crucial, if you are doing gender specific classes {or nights} that you give the participants a choice.
post #14 of 44
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dchan:
I meant what bottle was open tonight, not store. The cote rotie is for my cellar. someday it may get as deep as yours!

I know what you mean about getting down to that last bottle! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh sorry well, wait a minuet
That is better, I was going to open a Camus 1987 last night but did not. SO I opened it about an hour ago.
It is just right now!

Cheers
post #15 of 44
OK LM I see now, You are talking about the Q Angle!
post #16 of 44
Thread Starter 
The bibulous epicureans are again gathered around the embers of an evening, head-spinning and Q-ing each other's clever repartee. You seldom fail to make me laugh out loud, startling the cat sleeping on my foot.

What you must know, even the XYs: She hates to ask. If you really cared, you'd know.

Heard that one lately?
post #17 of 44
I don't really care if my instructor is male or female. But I quite like the idea of single-sex classes.
post #18 of 44
Hmmm, POPCORN is ready I must retire. I can not eat that at the keyboard, just too buttery. My fingers are too big for these keys anyway and slipping all over them with buttery POPCORN would make my spelling even worst that it really is!

What you have hit on is really the solution - IF it is a womens program then why would the WOMAN have to ASK FOR ONE?

I must go, I make NO sense!

(frankly the choice between this gender or that should not be an issue of quality but of comfort)

(as for saftey .... well I saw a bumper sticker the other day; I HAVE A GUN AND I HAVE PMS!)

(just how safe is it with hormones raging, I would not want to go there)(estrogen OR testostorone / or is it GONADS and STRIFE)

Just an attempt to make one laugh!
post #19 of 44
Thread Starter 
It is a comfort to be understood. BIN-GO.
post #20 of 44
Let me say this -

Before I get flamed for the above retort. My meaning must be clear, in respect to the Quality and Comfort retort.

Quality is in the eye of the beholder, by that many of the attendees to the Womens classes, at least in my experience are seeking more of an atmosphere than a TECHNICAL session.
(although there is technical instruction being pursued)

This is a point of departure for the clinics. Not that there is, not GOOD or not QUALITY instruction because there is. But that the attendees are looking for a different experience.

The consumer can find a class and get put in there with all the others, any time and any where. A class with Male and or Female instructors. HERE the advertising was aimed at WOMEN for the purpose of attaining their participation.

It is simply BAIT and SWITCH to then have MALE instructors. (Unless it is understood in the advertisement as being co-ed instruction)

Seems clear to me. Let me know if I have fogged this up again or not?
post #21 of 44
It is somewhat sad to see a woman having a problem being thought by male instructors. Just as sad as seeing a man having a problem being thought by a woman instructor. If the quality is there, then there should be no problem.

Still, I will have to agree that management blew it. After all, the customer must be given what he/she expects and pays for. Male instructors should not look at this as political incorrectness. If a paying client wants a female instructor, then the school must oblige.
post #22 of 44
TomB,

I see it more as a prefference thing and not a problem thing.

After haning out and teaching my kids for a few years I may not WANT to teach kids. I love em I can teach them with success, but I PREFER NOT TO at this time in my life.

Same with some ladies. Hey they put up with some GUY all the time. That GUY may be their boss, or dad or husand or whatever. Hey people get on your nerves, SO they want to converse with and commiserate with others of their gender and or experience.

No big thing. I had a lady once that neede an instructor that let her be her. Not the pushy type like her husband was nor that the other instructores where in her several years of skiing. We just skied and enjoyed the day, after the third shair ride she began asking skiing questions. I took that as the key to start some instruction. Before that NO talk about SKI EDGE PARRALEL or any other judgemental TERMS!

Take a look at that word, judgemental. Some folks really think instructors are CRITICAL of others skiing. (I wonder where they get that stuff .... hmmmm) well anyway in an enviroment where one feels accepted there is less JUDGEMENT.

It is just a comfort thing!
post #23 of 44
To All- We have been working for years to create equality in the workplace. I question the ethics.

My point is simple

I don't think anyone should be denied anything based upon gender.

It's wrong
post #24 of 44
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr.GO:

Oh sorry well, wait a minuet
That is better, I was going to open a Camus 1987 last night but did not. SO I opened it about an hour ago.
It is just right now!

Cheers
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Camus? Is that the winery named after the late French philosopher, journalist, playwright and novelist? Personally, I prefer Caymus.

Moral of the story...if you're going to be a wine snob, get the spelling correct.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 05, 2001 09:55 AM: Message edited 1 time, by irul&ublo ]</font>
post #25 of 44
Dr. GO, if you describe it as "just a comfort thing", then I agree, it should be no big deal.

Rusty, I think that everyone would agree with you on the equality issue. In fact, in the case presented above, management wanted to give equality to instructors. However, the customer wanted a certain "product" (instruction given by female instructor) and that should take precedene over equality. After all, the customer pays for this service and it is in everyone's interest to make him/her happy.
post #26 of 44
I agree in principal that no one should be denied what is available to others based on gender, but let's take this one step further.

The ski area is offering what the market is demanding. In this case, women asking for women only clinics. I would like to believe that management could/would also offer men only clinics (it would not offend me), but would the market be there?

Womens clinics are popular for a reason. Some women might feel less intimidated (for oh, so many reasons) in a women only environment. The question which then needs to be answered is, WHY? Why do some women feel intimidated in a mixed gender learning atmosphere?

I am sure there are women here who can shed some light on this. The only light I can shed is based on my experiences. A women only learning environment can feel much less competitive, whether it be for the instructors attention, to be the best in the class, or even getting hit on. Some women like a competitive environment, but for many it can be intimidating and end up being a less than fulfilling learning experience.

Our society has inherent gender bias down to its very core. This gender bias is fostered from the time we are young children, through adulthood. Why do you think women are so under-represented in the math, science, and enginering fields. In my opinion, it goes back to a comfortable learning environment, or lack thereof.

Personal note, in high school I was in a couple of technical drafting and architecture classes. I was the only female. I stayed with it for one year, and switched to a different focus, not because I did not like architecture, but the environment was not very female friendly. I think that happened/happens a lot in our society.

I am not anti-male (by any stretch of the imagination), and I wish our society was more gender equal, on the other hand, I do see the need, and the benefit of gender specific clinics/classes/learning environments for those who desire them. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #27 of 44
Thread Starter 
Rusty Guy,

Political correctness is so far off the marketing mark it is tragic. The lesson is that women are different than men: they think differently than men, their lives are fundamentally different than men, and yet the vast majority of those deciding "what women want" are men.

Here are a few examples. Men tend to be focused on one thing at a time. Women tend to be able to entertain a number of diverse ideas and functions simultaneously. Brain research shows that women's brains are more adaptable, more networked than men's. (Please don't mistake me: this is not a contest or a competition--that's another male concern that women typically don't share, unless they have been conditioned to behave that way.) Men tend to think in steps and straight lines. Women tend to multi-process and use more of a spider-web approach to problem solving and idea generation. While a linear progression might work beautifully for a male student, women tend to respond better to an approach that a man might find "scattershot."

Unless a male instructor has been trained specifically to work with women, I would submit that the less experienced, less certified female instructor would innately be a superior women's instructor, because it's not the technique but the tactics that a woman will value most.

To a point, of course. A new instructor shouldn't be asked to deliver a high-priced specialty product right off the bat in any event.

This is not opinion. This is empirically tested information.
post #28 of 44
I have signed up for a "women's only" lesson 12-19 at Copper Mtn. If when I arrived I were assigned to a male instructor I would feel mislead.

I take a lesson each year and have never had a women instructor. My motivation on taking this class was the opportunity to ski with other women at or near my level. I never get to do this. Most times I am with the guys, my only skiing girlfriend took up boarding last year. :

I do think that if there were to be a male in the group the dynamics would change. Not just necessarily competing for attention but more a chance for someone to feel intimidated, awkward or fearful of being pushed beyond ones limits. I know you all work hard to prevent this but there is an ease in being with just the gals. At least that is my hope.
post #29 of 44
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by irul&ublo:

Moral of the story...if you're going to be a wine snob, get the spelling correct.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are corrrect, I am looking at the bottle righ here, I should have checked my spelling!

Yes the Caymus vinyard is right next to Silver Oak, my friend Justin Meyers is the owner. AND the Caymus vinyard is just behind the OPUS ONE fields. Off yountville bench road. DO you know where it is?

PS
I may have spelled Yountville wrong could you check it for me?

Oh yes I almost forgot the other vineyard of note just there on the corner of 29 and the bench road is Nickels place Far Niente (I read the label this time to get it right) I think I 'll have this 84 later!

I had a Dolce last week end GREAT STUFF. I am down to my last bottle of that one. Of cousre it is so sweet you can not make a regular diet out of it, EH?
post #30 of 44
Serenity

BINGO

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 05, 2001 11:18 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Dr.GO ]</font>
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