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Notes from HH - Page 4

post #91 of 136

Maybe it is an example. Really we need to be on the other side of the skier and jsut at the first frame of this clip. It moves fast but that is to keep the size down for the transfer.

Can you see it? The dynamic transfer I mean?
post #92 of 136
Bob, The contrasting style using simultaneous foot and leg movements you describe is in my opinion best exemplified by Doug Coombs. Doug has the uncanny ability to ski in this fashion even in some of the narrowest couloirs and gnarliest terrain. It is what sets him apart (above?) from many other freeskiers. It would be very informative to have a few pictures (or video) of Doug in similar terrain to compare. I have had the opportunity to observe his skiing close up and first hand on a few occasions and would at this point really love to hear some analysis of his movements. Perhaps some of our world class freeskiers who participate in this forum could find a picture of themselves or others demonstrating this contrasting style in some steep terrain. I will take a look at Eric and Rob DesLauriers past articles in Skiing that are on the web to see if I can find something suitable for this.

Edit: Please note that I was posting this at the same time Dr. Go posted the picture sequence of Eric Des Lauriers. I guess we had the same idea.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 28, 2001 09:34 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Si ]</font>
post #93 of 136
Thread Starter 
Eski is the man. That boy really has it going.
post #94 of 136
Dr. Go, perfect example. Your skier sets the edge on his left ski only (abstem?) and bounces into his turn. Great.

post #95 of 136
SI you are on TRACK!

Here is the link to this article and the discription of what is going on, CLEAR AS MUD!

Skiing Magazine

Love you guys! (really these boys are so much fun)
post #96 of 136
I don't really care if you call it an abstem or whatever, the skier was seeking an edgeset and got it and rebounded into a narrow stance parallel turn.Great skiing.

>>>Now get out there and DO IT!<<<

You bet, and I always will want to seek a secure edge before I plant my cane and rebound into the next turn. My deminished strength makes me seek the easiest way to turn, and that is not the latest way taught to ski shaped skis.

But I have no trouble doing it if need be. Also you as an instructor, or any instructor worth his salt, can coach a skier to do things correctly which he himself cannot do.

post #97 of 136
Ott and Doc,

I think that your "debate" about what is going on here really highlights an interesting point. I think Ott is correct in the most (even very good skiers) would be doing just what he said, planting that downhill edge and rebounding off of it. On the other hand I have been lucky enough to get an opportunity to ski with a few of the worlds best freeskiers. One of the most amazing things about them is their ability from this position to just relax the extended downhill ski and maintain balance on their uphill (new outside) ski as their bodies travel down through the fall line and they ride their outside ski around the turn (Doc's DYNAMIC movement). It is truly a feat of "extreme" skill and athleticism. Interestingly, on the (rare) occasion where I have been able to imitate such role models in this type of movement on the steeps it turns out that it doesn't take as much strength or effort as you might think when you let the gravity and steepnes work for you. Actually, I think it's an easier way to do it, but one that requires great confidence and a lot of experience in that kind of terrain. From my ovservations I think it is unfortunate that the majority of recreational skiers who like to ski steeps never really get to understand this point. I think it is a big component of the message that the Des Lauriers and some others are trying to get across in their programs. From their articles, I would say that the Des Lauriers certainly are leaders in terms of explaining the "primary movements" needed to ski in this fashion.
post #98 of 136
Oh never mind, Dr. Go, repeating my position over and over just takes up bandwith..

post #99 of 136
>>>Both edges are loaded! dynamic weight transfer, PRESTO early edge and away we go!<<<

So what were we arguing about? I have argued that an edgeset is desirable and you have said it isn't so. Now you tell me both edges are loaded. If they are, he has a secure platform from which he can do anything he pleases, rebound, rectract, absorb, unweight (not a dirty word) or whatever.

I wish they guy was here to tell us if he had a secure edge before this turn or not.

post #100 of 136
Thread Starter 
I want to ski with Ott and Eski.

I'm so impressed with Ott that I may even go to Ohio to see him.

Si too. Si. You coming to CO this winter? If so, I have to see you.

Dr. Go,
I'm with Ott. It's hard to make out your posts sometimes. Kinda reminds of me in my "Wacko" days.
post #101 of 136
Maybe we should ask ESki what he was doing.
post #102 of 136
Who is ESki? ...Ott
post #103 of 136
SCSA, it's Bushspeak!
post #104 of 136
Thread Starter 

I'd say, but I don't know if Eski would want me to. Maybe he'd rather remain incognito...

He's been in lots of ski movies.
post #105 of 136
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado:
The skier is looking to set that edge, and the ski will slip away until it happens.

So we now have a description for the label "abstem" from an instructors Instructor.

I believe that the label "abstem" is useful for an instructors learning\understanding process BUT just a "crock term" for our everyday clients.

A scientist may say H2O but a client will ask for water.

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #106 of 136
SCSA, I'm flattered that you understand what I say in my posts.

Your Wacko days are long since gone and you rightly have earned the respect of this community, especially in your openess and willingness to learn.

So in this light I am going to give you some advice, which I give rarely

First, thank you lucky star that you have been given the opportunity, an opportunity which most of us would gladly accept, including me.

Then get together with Bob Barnes SOONEST and let him video tape your skiing, he will put the sequences up on this board and will critique it, not criticize, then he will teach you many things and video tape you after you advanced, so we can see the difference. You are the perfect candidate for this since you have a disciplined work/ski ethic.

If he likes what you do over time and if you give him the go-ahead (which you should), he may even find a place for those sequences in the new edition of his book.

I know I'm putting a burden on you and Bob, but this board would go APE over something like this.

The bonus for you would be that you then will have both PMTS and PSIA based ski skills at your call, how lucky can you be!

post #107 of 136
Well guys what can I say.


I am CRYSTAL now.
post #108 of 136
Right Si--Coombs is a good example. When you watch someone like Doug and compare his skiing to a lot of the "extreme skiers" out there, you can really see the difference. Both techniques work, and Doug can certainly employ either when he wants or needs. But the simultaneous, two-footed leg movements allow him usually to ski with less effort and a greater margin for error.

Dr. Go--the clip you posted has some very interesting and significant differences from the photo of Dan. In your clip, the skier is NOT rotated--the uphill hand does not drop back while the downhill hand reaches forward. The first frame of your clip is the closest to the moment of Dan's photo, and shows a big difference in body alignment--your skier is "slightly countered". He IS able to simply release the edges and steer the skis downhill and through the turn. It's a very different look--I like it.

Ah yes, Ott--visions of some of the chutes off the Vallugabahn above St. Anton were flashing through my mind as well as I looked at these pictures. Last time I was there, I was on 205 cm skis--we would sidestep down until the chute was narrower than the length of our skis, then dive in, and try to regain our composure down below where it widened out a little. If nowhere else, there's an advantage there to today's shorter boards!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #109 of 136
If I am not mistaken Eski is Eric DesLauriers. I would love to get his input here. Man I post one little picture and look what happens. Great discussion Guys! [img]smile.gif[/img]

post #110 of 136
Thread Starter 
Okay Ott, I'm going to do it.

In case you all don't get what's going on here, this is like a big step for me. Well, it's like I always say, "Never say never".

I'm getting a new camcorder soon - by mid December. Let's use my camera and I'll then create a streaming video and post it on my web site.

Cheers to all of you!
post #111 of 136
OK SCSA, Bob has a digital camcorder with three sensors, he may want to use his, but you guys make it out.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Bob will agree to this and that you will make yourself available to him. This will be interesting.

post #112 of 136
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PowDigger:
If I am not mistaken Eski is Eric DesLauriers. I would love to get his input here. Man I post one little picture and look what happens. Great discussion Guys! [img]smile.gif[/img]


Powdigger you are on the right TRACK!
This link is to the article that the frames I posted here are from. They are of Eric at Squaw.

Skiing Magazine

(The animated gif (see previous post above) is made by combining the three pictures in the article pasting them and playing them in sequence)

Just my attempt to make myself clear.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 28, 2001 04:53 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Dr.GO ]</font>
post #113 of 136
>>>Just my attempt to make myself clear.<<<

You are doing good, Dr. Go... ...Ott
post #114 of 136

Thanks, I would enjoy meeting you as well. I thought maybe I'd get to meet you at the fall PMTS Instructors Camp but you didn't pop in like I thought you might. Other than that I am sorry I don't presently have any plans to return to Colorado this year. If I do I will certainly give notice here on Epic Ski to you, Bob, and the other participants who live in the area.
post #115 of 136
Hi guys,
boy, fun reading here. we're finally out skiing here in tahoe, and now some of these discussions are making more since. Amazing what being in the saddle can do.

Anyway, I have to take a different take on the dan picture than ott and bob and I agree with cold water. I think he is about to eliminate the left ski altogether and move down the hill 'till gravity gets weight over that new stance ski. I've seen this move from this position more than a few times.
I also have to put forth that hopping of both feet in this situatiion is not ideal, as bob mentioned. One of my favorite turns to teach in terrain like the picture, is what eski calls the pedal carve. You eliminate the weight from that old stance ski, and project down the hill off the uphill edge of the uphill ski. Dan could do that move right now.

As far as the eric delauriers sequence above, I think it is described very well in link provided, but I'd have to say it definitly not an abstem. He hits the stance foot edge quickly, then shortens and rolls it toward the little toe edge, leading the new outside ski into the turn. Who knows, maybe he'll show up to explain it himself?

boy, isn't skiin grand. some nice wet wind blown over sastrugi today. ya just never know what's gonna show up with snow.

cheers, Holiday
post #116 of 136
Holiday--Right, the picture of Eric definitely does not show an abstem (as I define "abstem" anyway). It, and the sequence Dr. Go posted, shows the mechanics that I've described as an alternative to the rotary pushoff of Dan's photo.

We are, of course, conjecturing and extrapolating a lot about Dan's skiing from that single photograph. I think that some of us are envisioning the same moves, but at different levels of intensity. I do not believe that Dan is about to do a 180 degree hop turn--although it's possible. But I DO believe that, whatever he intends to do, it revolves around turning his skis with his upper body using "rotation" and, perhaps, a blocking pole plant. ["Rotation," for the non-instructors trying to follow this thread, means turning first the upper body, then "yanking" the skis around by slowing or stopping the rotation of the upper body. "Upper body" can include the hips, torso, arms, head, or any combination.]

Anyway, Dan's upper body, as I mentioned before, is "wound up," twisted a little uphill, with the uphill arm and shoulder pulled back, the downhill arm and shoulder reaching forward. Reversing this arrangement--twisting everything to the left--while the lower body is anchored by the skis--produces powerful rotational momentum that will transfer to the skis when he STOPS the upper body rotation.

It's a powerful force, capable of powering skis around even in heavy snow if done vigorously enough. Or it can be done with great subtlety. Dan will use it any way he wants. But he WILL use it, even if he DOESN'T want to! He has to unwind that upper body--he can't just turn his skis down the hill while he's still facing across or slightly up the hill. When he reaches that right arm downhill and around, it WILL introduce some rotational momentum, no matter how smoothly or subtly he does it.

I do wish we had a couple more frames in a sequence of Dan's skiing. I can (almost) promise that the first things that move into the new left turn will be Dan's arms and shoulders, followed by his skis. In all likelihood, Dan will do this with great subtlety and refinement, throwing his skis just enough to start the turn, then steering them smoothly around to the finish.

Again, the only potential problem with these mechanics, in this situation, is that rotation requires a platform to stabilize the feet while the upper body begins to rotate. (Otherwise the rotation of the upper body downhill will cause a simultaneous counter-rotation of the feet UP the hill.)

A "platform" does necessarily mean a complete edge set, with no lateral slippage. But it does require a certain amount of "grip" to stop one turn and provide the stability to push off from into the next turn.

When using the alternative "leg-steering" mechanics that I've described, and that Eric demonstrates well above, the SKIS turn down the hill first, rather then the hands and upper body, and they turn more than the upper body. This results in the stance that Eric shows in the first frame of his sequence--upper body facing somewhat down the hill. This turn begins not with a pushoff from a platform, but with a RELEASE of the edge grip--so Eric can do it even if his skis aren't holding.

Anyway, Eric is definitely not showing an abstem, as I use the term. An unintentional abstem is almost always accompanied by a rotated stance (the rotated stance is part of the cause-effect chain that causes the abstem). Eric, with his slightly countered and somewhat narrower stance (than Dan's) shows the alternative mechanics that I described--a great instructional counterpoint!

Very technical--hope I haven't discouraged anyone from following this thread.

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 28, 2001 07:00 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Bob Barnes/Colorado ]</font>
post #117 of 136
SCSA--I'm pleased. And I promise--I won't let you down. By-the-way--I know that there are many people here who eagerly await some video posted, but I want to say right now that I will only post it with SCSA's permission, and if he and I agree that it will indeed serve instructional purposes. SCSA--there are no strings attached.

So now we have to find a time. I'm afraid that next week is solidly booked for me, and I know that you prefer not to ski on weekends. Friday (day after tomorrow) is possible, but not ideal for me. How does the following week look, SCSA? "PM" me!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #118 of 136
Bob, glad you are doing it. The ideal thing would be if we saw a video or a sequence of your first shoot, the place SCSA is right now, and then you give him some things to work on, and since he is tenatious about practicing, you could now and then run some updates.

It would be great to, for instance, see SCSA make good narrow stance turns now and after while making the same good turns in a wider stance, and thing like that.

And you also should get something out of it, like a release from Paul to use some of those sequences should you want to.

post #119 of 136
If Only I could be more CLEAR!

I will try once more;
Bob, We see Eric from the back, IF we were looking from the front on the first frame we would see almost identical position to Dans picture.

I chose this sequence because of that point. What happens after that static piont in time is the turn we see Eric make.

Both Dan and Eric are balanced and projecting. Dan is on much steeper terrain SOOO, it looks a bit different. AND although it looks very difficult the steep pitch will assist in completing the turn.

It will almost be like a freefall when Dan projects himself into the next turn

It is not ski school stuff. It is technical. A cross between Race and Mountaineering.

Really cool stuff. (seen it done it)

I hear SI and I hear Holiday telling the team here what is going on.

I feel that there are a few respected voices that either do not see it or for the sake of having more discussion or are refusing to see it.

Hmmm, I wonder how much clearer I can make this?

This is a fluid turn on steep terrain.

Well I am going to post this anyway, I have written it three times and thrown it away each time.

Long time ago I learned that IF a STUDENT is not of the MIND to LEARN. They will not learn.

There is a comfort zone with which each of us can operate. Some can push this zone and learn. Some can not. Also there is an experience gap. (Try and explain BASKINS 31 Flavors to a Kid in Afganistan.)

So if you care to open your mind it may be there for you. If you can NOT see with an open mind then we can understand that also. We will go on.

post #120 of 136
I guess I'm one of those that doesn't see it, Dr. G. I've gone back to look again at the pictures, to make sure I'm looking at the same ones you are. While surely there are similarities between Dan and Eric (in the first frame of the sequence), there are some very significant differences as well. Perhaps we are simply focusing on different parts.

Here's what I see as significant:

Dan: right hand very low, and back behind his hip. Eric: right hand up, well to the right of, and somewhat forward and downhill of his hip.

Dan: Left hand reaching across in front of his body, literally to the right of his body, pulling his left shoulder with it, wrist "closed" to the hill (palm facing uphill). Eric: Left hand off to his left, palm open to the hill (facing downhill somewhat).

Dan: torso and shoulders facing directly across the hill or even slightly uphill ("square" or slightly "rotated"). Eric: torso and shoulders facing perhaps 45 degrees to the right of downhill (somewhat "countered").

Dan: Left leg extended very long, right leg extremely flexed, stance very wide. Eric: both legs more evenly flexed--long leg/short leg differential much more moderate, stance somewhat narrower.

Dan: Downhill ski on high edge angle and bearing almost all the weight (or at least trying to, but the snow is breaking away, so some weight moves to the uphill ski); uphill ski has much less edge angle than downhill ski. Eric: Also predominantly on downhill ski, but both skis simililarly edged.

In short, and symbolic of the "big picture," Eric's left hand is to his left, his right hand to his right; Dan's right hand is to his left (behind him) and his left hand is to his right!

These differences are quite obvious--just look at the pictures. The question, and the point of contention, must be whether they are significant or not. I say they are.

I will allow one possible, but I think unlikely, exception. A couple moments after the photograph of Dan was taken--the next "frame" in the sequence, as his upper body unwinds, he will look very similar at that moment to Eric in the first frame. Conversely, it is POSSIBLE that Eric was similarly "wound up" just moments before his first frame was taken. If that is the case, what appears to be a solid, slightly-countered stance of Eric's upper body could be really just a moment caught during its unwinding rotation. Possible, but I don't think so. I believe his upper body remains stable and that his legs turn powerfully beneath it.

In any case, we are nitpicking and conjecturing now. What is important is not debating these two individuals in these particular turns, but understanding that there are, indeed, two contrasting technical possibilities. It is possible to turn the skis with only the legs, beneath a stable upper body. And it is possible to turn the skis by using the upper body--through "rotation," "counter-rotation," and/or a "blocking pole plant." It is possible to turn the skis sequentially (one-at-a-time) or simultaneously. It is possible to be very one-ski dominant, or to ski "2-footed."

I believe that we see examples of these two contrasting techniques in these two sets of images. But admittedly, these photographs are limited, moments frozen in time, in two different types of terrain. If others see other things, well--that is understandable!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
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