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Notes from HH - Page 2

post #31 of 136
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SCSA:
I take all criticism that's how I improve.
Do I push off sometimes? Yes, but I try not to. But, who doesn't?

I should be so good, but hey, I'm still learning! Thanks for the great discussion, I need all the learnin I can get.
post #32 of 136
SCSA you said:
>>And, you know where those push off movements came from? From the very first few days I skied with my father 30 freakin years ago - HE TAUGHT ME WEDGE TURNS! 120 days and counting and I still can't break myself of those nasty habits! <<
Its very unlikely that your statement has even a shread of reality. Reality is, that what you are doing is very very natural and is a result of putting the cart before the horse. I say cart before the horse for two reasons.
One, in a very narrow stance you would have difficulty changing and modifying the size of your turns once the turn has been initiated. As a result, you must stem the start of the turn to make turns of a radius that is smaller than the normal arc your skis would scribe. The smaller the radius the greater the stem.
Two, as Bob pointed out, is the lack of steering skills at the start of the turn. Steering (not meaning pivoting) is holding the downhill foot back and guiding the downhill/inside ski tip into the turn at the same time you are rolling the downhill/inside ski to its little toe edge.
The stem would also necessitate a slight traverse in the middle of your linked turns like we have recently discussed.
These things are not inconsitent with anything HH has been saying. Indeed this statement right out of your posting says a lot. >>We therefore teach beginners and intermediates (who ski at slower speeds and therefore low or almost no forces act on them) to balance in a narrow stance until they become aware of the balancing phenomenon in skiing<<
Don't take what I have said as criticism of your skiing or of HH. I think once you understand what we are saying you will appreciate HH all the more.
I fully agree with HH's take on alignment. We have many local women skiers whom are skiing with heal lifts that are totally inappropriate as a result of misconceptions from JT's clinics. One thing JT does for women is inspire confidence. I think this is a huge contribution.
post #33 of 136
Pierre EH,

First lets get some agreement;
Racing is probably the best demonstration of skiiled and or expert technique. - AGREED?

Second - FIS and or Olympic, Wordl CUp ski racers are probably the top in the sport. AGREED?

Then watch closely my firend there will be a STEM or even the rudements of a WEDGE in there somewhere..... IT IS ALL GOOD!

A Hop

IT IS ALL GOOD, may not win the race but hey!

FLEMMEN! YES! (Love that Nord!)
post #34 of 136
It is so unfortunate that we get hung up arguing about different teaching systems. All of the different teaching systems are a culmination of experience from many educators.

We all should remember that. The basic movement patterns have not changed in years. Advances in equipment have made our movements more effective.

This means we need less movement than we did 30 years ago. We also blend the movements differently because our equipment is more capable.

What ever labels you use the basic movements are still Tipping the feet/legs, Turning the feet/legs and flexion extention for balance and pressure controll

It would benifit us all if we could avoid the p*ssing matches and keep our egos out of it
post #35 of 136
>>First lets get some agreement;
Racing is probably the best demonstration of skiiled and or expert technique. - AGREED?<<
Its probably not the best demonstration of skilled or expert technique as many things are going on and erroneous assumptions abound about what is actually taking place. Often technique takes a back seat to speed.

>>Second - FIS and or Olympic, Wordl CUp ski racers are probably the top in the sport. AGREED?<<
I would agree.

>>Then watch closely my firend there will be a STEM or even the rudements of a WEDGE in there somewhere..... IT IS ALL GOOD!<<
You're tone comes across to me as rather critical. I've gone back to review my post and see where you are comming from on this. I must not have set my tone very well, that has happened before when I am tired. Maybe I am reading more into your response than you intended.
I don't see where I said a stem is always bad. Most stems and wedges in racing are recovery moves or moves to correct line. I don't see the connection here to my post. I know my post didn't quite say what I really wanted it to but I didn't think it implied something I hadn't intended.
post #36 of 136
Bob, sorry you misinterpeted my post completely. If there is any rereading to be done it is by you on the tenor of your first two posts. Which by the way, was the point of my post. If you think my post was an example of me "jumping" on you, you're wrong. If I had any intent of "jumping" on you I'd have done so and there would be no confusion about it. The jump shoes are on someone elses feet, I think. I guess its never a good idea to get involved in divorce proceedings, even if the intent is to help.

Thank you Dr. GO for a rational post, and to Ott for acknowledging a couple of the many examples my initial post refered to, your first three paragraph's are my posts point.
Lisa Marie- thank you so much for the sharing of wealth you bless us with in your posts and links. I for one have little access to much of the info you provide and appreciate your time.

Bob, I'm sorry if I irritated you, it was really the exact opposite of my intent.
post #37 of 136
I appologize Pierre, I am not intending a pointed focus on what you said as GOO or BAD silmply that IT IS ALL GOOD.

You may have stubled upon an interesting thread here about the efficiency of a RACE line and of SKI technique. (and I must point out that in most course setting there will be a degree of CONTROL that is imposed upon the contestants, Tight gates or open gates in a steep or flats that take you to a point that the first steep downhill gate requires a techinque which is difficult, YES I agree SPEED but with control)

I have to say that my thoughts have always been that a RACE line is about as effeicent as one could get.

NOW we talk about Technique. This is the Crux of the issue.

Are we talking about Techinique that;

A) Looks Pretty
B) Is effective in keeping the skier from serious bodily harm as in NOT turning in time to avoid a collision?
C) Fits some one or some organizations PICTURE of what a good skier should do or become?
D)The degree of skill in the preformance of a task.
E) ALL of the Above
F) None of the above.
G) some of the above but I am not sure which.
H) Lets not confuse this with the truth, stay on the subject of argument for argument sake please.

Let me jump out front and say D - The degree of skill in the preformance of a task. Like skiing. IF that is a true statement then I would have to say our RACE cousins are of the SKILL level and the PREFORMANCE level that IF they were not they would not QUALIFY to be there in the first place.

True they are not all INSTRUCTORS nor are all INSTRUCTORS Racers.

Both Have skill and both have a different job. The issue that I see that keeps getting bandied around is do we do this or that? Usualy THIS is from THIS side and THAT is from THAT side of a point of view.

Again IT IS ALL GOOD. and I see THIS side using THAT technique and THAT side using THIS technique. SO the argumnet is actual MOOT!

Frankly a review of these posts would show that quite well.

IT IS ALL GOOD. Learn it ALL, take what you will. Use what you can.

There will come a time on a hill or a peice of frozen water somewhere that you will NEED IT!

That is the point of an illustration of WEDGE or SKID or some such word that many take issue with. (even counter - rotation) There will come a time and place that IT will be needed and useful so LEARN IT!

Crusing down a GS at speed is not really the place for a stem. However IF you are seeking balance, you may need it for a second. Likewise turning on one ski nay not be the best idea but at time is required. Two edges carving may be the preference but it can not happen all the time. A hop may not look good but will get you to a better attack when needed.

Good techinque or bad, you be the judge. IT IS ALL GOOD. and Needed.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 26, 2001 10:22 AM: Message edited 2 times, by Dr.GO ]</font>
post #38 of 136
Dr. Go, it must be my accent, but I have such a hard time reading your posts and not get lost in the words while I miss the meaning...I'm such a dummy...

post #39 of 136
Racers use convergence and divergence in their turns depending on what they want to do with their "line". Are they always parallel? NO. But they are in alignment!

The normal recreational skier is aiming for "carving" because that is the most recent technique. The variations racers use would show up in unusual circumstances...steep and a tree in front of you!!

For the skiers that have only been in stiff boots and on metal/fiberglass/etc skiis, a real eye opener to technique and "gospel" is to read the 1932 Austrian Instructors Guide, or a book on technique by Iselin or Engl, or even JeanClaude Killy. If you said "who", get a hold of an "old timer", or join ISHA (www.skiinghistory.org).

A plug for PSIA-E Master Certtification program is that there is a History of Skiing clinic. It is interesting using rotation, counter rotation, French, Austrian, American Natural Technique(is there anyone certified in this Forum?-I met a few last year. I was on Patrol at the area where this technique was started).

Are you aware that you use a variation on Ruade and Avalement in moguls? Is it officially taught...no, it is survival technique.

I think we all agree that if the skiis are not in uniform contact with the snow, there is an alignment problem.

Once the alignment is taken care of, whether you are on edge (one or two) at the very top of the turn, or having to hop to get there(steeps or snow condition) or having to stem(upstem or abstem), it is all variations on the theme of getting down the hill.

Some more history. The first races were just straight downhills, hopping to turn, or even falling to turn.

Let's not lose the idea of "skiing is fun". We can be critical of our own skiing, but let's not be too barbarious when dealing with others. But my method is better than yours!
post #40 of 136
Keetov - YES!

Great JOB!


<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 26, 2001 11:36 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Dr.GO ]</font>
post #41 of 136
Dr. Go, you make sense all right in your posts, I just have a hard time finding it among all those words . Maybe it's too much information all at once? I don't know and it doesn't matter, it's my fault that I'm not always sure what you mean. Don't worry, I'll figure it out

Enjoy the Sigi stories.

post #42 of 136
You are right I do try and cover too much sometimes.

However this is near and dear as it is to you and the others here. We all get carried away a bit.

My passion is that there is more than one way to ski and to learn.

I can not fault this style or that. I do think that it is a shame if a skier has only one style.

You know, lets say you and I ski and you see me HOP HOP HOP every turn. Well there it is. I either ski that style too much.

Sometimes we start a run with a certain drill or skill in mind to get on our edges again. I will meet a friend and they will say, I did not recognize your style. I think that is great, because it was NOT my style. I was working on a drill.

See what I mean. I have not skied with Bob, that I can recall anyway. So I do not know his style. But I bet he has many many techniques which he uses to get the desired effect or control he needs at any given time.

This is my point.

You come from a very worldly approach to skiing. You have many many more Techniques that I may not have ever seen. This is good. You have a skill and a style all your own.


Hope that makes some sense.
love the discussion though!
post #43 of 136
OK, Doc, let's let it rest here, it really is all good.

post #44 of 136
My bet is that Jeane Thoren doesn't see a lot of racers of advanced skiers in her group. Rather, as I've observed her program, I think she draws beginner and plateaued/intermediate skiers seeking explanations for their "problems". Certainly she makes some generalities, but for those gals who don't know the difference between PMTS and PMS, she does offer some insights. If it helps these gals anjoy, and therefore pursue skiing at the next level, I'm sure you can set them straight when they make it to your method.

A 5'2 100lb-er who, btw, is on "men's"
post #45 of 136
My 11 year racer picked up on a few wedge turns during yesterdays SL.

A novice pilot is taught to fly by "centering the ball" and ALL turns MUST be coordinated/accordingly.

Later, you are taught to use slips and skids and drop a wing in order to get the plane where it needs to be. Good pilots use the whole "flight envelope to it's fullest with a mixed bag of techniques.
post #46 of 136
Great comparision! The playing field of "air" is constantly changing and you have to work the airplane in all planes.

Now compare short, soft field takeoffs/landings with an obstacle to skiing!! Talk about a full bag of tricks.

The skier that is exposed to the unusual is usually more confident and capable. (I learned how to fly at a 2100ft soft field with trees). So, should lessons only be geared to the "centerline" or to widening your bag of tricks. I'm for the bag of tricks.
post #47 of 136

What a deal, that is so in there!

Great Job!

Perfect, Bank turn, anyone?
post #48 of 136
KeeTov; 'So, should lessons only be geared to the "centerline" or to widening your bag of tricks. I'm for the bag of tricks.'

The Centerline concept is actually very broad in its philosophy. Simply stated centerline identifies good skiing as the result of blending the skills of rotory control, edge control, presure contol and balance to control speed through turn shape.

This can apply to a racer trying to carry as much speed as possible, and it also applies to a beginer concerned with not going to fast.

The centerline mile stones that were identified at the time refected learning stages that most students passed through as their skiing skills developed. The original model did recognize movement patterns that were rotory or edged biased.

In my opinion many instructors took this model to an extreme and felt that if it wasn't in the center(blended) then it was bad.

It has taken us along time to come full circle as an organization and recognize that pivoted, blended and carved behaviors are all appropriate skiing skills. As are wedge or direct parallel learning paths. It all depends on the situation and the skier.

I understand that the new manual does not include The Center Line Model. It is a shame that we have to reinvent the wheel. It was a great model of good skiing that was flexible, unfortunatly many misinterpreted it and became too zealouse in its application.
post #49 of 136
Sometimes the details get all the attention and the attention gets focused on all the wrong details.

A progression for skiers

Lesson 1 = have fun, feel safe, learn something, appreciate the mountain environment and being alive to enjoy it.
Lesson 2 = same
Lesson 3 = same
Lesson 4 = same

PMTS, PSIA and many others are the “marketing labels” of the training methodologies for teachers. The whole client progression gets screwed up once “marketing labels” are applied to the pupil. If the teacher’s clients learn to have fun feel safe, learn something and appreciate the mountain using teachers trained in sound methodologies then the mission is being accomplished. Only a really “detail focused” pupil\teacher would give a stuff about what the particular “marketing label” is and a pupil\teacher too focused on “details” will not progress to the “performance” stage. Why does everything have to have a “brand” and why do people actually believe so passionately in the “brand” to the detriment of their own personal learning progression.

Anyone remember the “down stem” move from the 80s. Now that was a crock!

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #50 of 136
SCSA: Have you seen video of your current skiing? If not, I can tell you from personal experience that what we THINK we are doing in our turns may not quite match the reality. It's certainly instructive! Bob offered to video you and give you the opportunity to see and discuss what is happening. Are you going to accept his offer?
post #51 of 136
>>>Anyone remember the “down stem” move from the 80s. Now that was a crock!<<<

Why was it a crock, Oz? The down stem or "abstem" acomplished actually a better stem christie than stemming the uphill ski.

As the skier slid the tail of his downhill ski out and set the edge, leaving the uphill ski in it's track, it accomplished two things, it moved the center of mass downhill and inside the new turn and rolled the new outside ski, which was the uphill ski, onto it's new edge.

Then rebounding from the stemmed downhill ski, all the skier had to do was bring the stemmed ski parallel to the now turning outside ski, often just by lifting it and setting it down next to the turning ski which is by now already turning/carving/sliding. This one-two movement is very effective and was used by the Bavarian women in the 30s and 40s loaded down with big bundles of fallen wood branches which they gathered in the forests.

So when you are loaded down with a heavy pack and are skiing in difficult snow conditions there is nothing better then starting a turn with an abstem, which is nothing more than a one footed check.

So the reasoning was, if it worked OK for those old Bavarian women it should work OK for the intermediate stem turners in Boyne Mountain, Michigan. And it did.

post #52 of 136
Thread Starter 
Wow, good stuff.

I'm glad we're all able to look at all this objectively; take in what works, throw out what doesn't.

Today was a big day for me. I practiced raising the inside hand - a huge difference.

Turning right, raise the right hand higher than the left one. Turning left, raise the left hand higher than the right one. What it did was to allow me to get more weight on my stance foot. And, I was able to get my skis on the edges at the bottom of the bump. I was getting more angulation I guess. What a cool feeling that is!

So is this standard skiing technique - raising the inside hand higher than the other? I know it made a huge difference for me. I watched a lot of skiers, including instructors, and hardly any of them do this. HH teaches it and somehow (slap me!) I had never practiced it. milesb reminded me. Moocho thanko milesb!

I'm getting a new laptop in December. Once I do, I'll start posting video, starting in January. It'll be great to get some feedback from you all.
post #53 of 136

I am just jealous that you get to practice just about everyday. Man it was 50+ degrees here and nothing up in NY. We are suffering.

This has been a great thread with lots of info.

post #54 of 136
Take two different extremes. Watch a racer in a GS turn. The "uphill" components(hip, shoulder, hand) is more uphill, making the components parallel to the slope. So yes, the uphill hand is raised.

Watch a skier do moguls or tight short arc turns. With th body facing downhill with the legs rotating underneath, the inside hand does not raise, because the components are staying parallel to the slope.

I was always shown this as movement analysis.
post #55 of 136
Thread Starter 

Well, not everyday. Two days a week -- sometimes I feel so guilty -- then I tell myself to think about turns, not feeling guilty!
post #56 of 136
Thread Starter 

Raising my hand made a big difference in bumps too. Like I said, I was able to be on my edges at the bottom of the bump.

Ott. Is this standard skiing technique? Has it been taught before?
post #57 of 136
Does anyone know what those Bavarian women were carrying?

Answer: A Fagot

Sorry.......couldn't resist!
post #58 of 136
Raised hands in moguls!!!-be careful of fore/aft balance. Best hand position I have found in moguls is after touching the pole, drive hand forward. This keeps fore/aft balance, and body aligned downhill.

Try "driving forward"

In the days of "up unweighting" many times the hands were used in moguls to aid in getting the weight off of the skiis. This created a tremondous amount of extention. Equipment has changed. Just consider the up hands as something to use if the smoother more efficient technique doesn't work,... like hugh moguls coated in mash potatoes. You need the up motion to release the skiis.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 26, 2001 06:41 PM: Message edited 1 time, by KeeTov ]</font>
post #59 of 136

I first heard of raise the inside hand, to complimet hip and shoulder alignment at my first instructor training clinic........24yrs ago

Its a great tip to help keeg you aligned so you can balance on the outside ski.

Be careful not to raise the hand too high or you may put yourself in the back seat.
post #60 of 136
Quite a thread this has turned out to be. From pmts clarifications to confrontation, to why can't we all just get along. I love all the pieces on multiple styles and methods. Thanks Dr. Go for your open, skiing is good posts, and OZ for creating a timely perspective.
Once again, you uncorked some emotions. You even inspired a lurker like me to post. On the inside hand raised thing; it is a tip for doing exactly what you said in your post, getting more angles, or more accurately; a corrective measure for banking. If your inside is droping, it is often a sign of leaning (banking) to the inside. It will, as you stated, help to get more weight to your stance foot, and in doing so, keep you from falling to the inside. Once your upper body remains stable and upright, it may not feel like your raising the hand anymore. It is just in the right place already. That's why the skiers you mentioned don't look like they're doing it, the upper body is probably just solid and quiet. Hope I read your question correctly and this helps.

As far a pmts, psia, isia, etc. I think most of us ski professionals think somewhat alike if we don't have a particular product to sell. I want to learn as much I can, and be able to make use of all the different dogmas to make the postive impact with my students. If it works, I may use it. I believe in the Cert. process, for sure. I have also read HH's books, along with the mahres system, elen foster's books and anything I can get my hands on to make me a more well rounded ski teacher. With the background of psia certification, i feel it's possible to utilize these other learnings in a balanced way.
NOTE to HH--seems to me that ski instructors could be your greatest sales asset. We see lots of potential customers for you publications and could easily send them your way. Your stuff is good, as you and most of us know, but why do you have to call us idiots. That makes it much harder to want to send people your way. Seems if you could be somewhat tolerant, line instructors would be a great asset for you. Anyway, just a thought.

Boy, some day I want to write like BB and not feel like I'm rambling like a drunken ski instructor. Anyway, thanks for the fun reading and yippee for snow in tahoe. Powder day today.

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