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Notes from HH - Page 5

post #121 of 136
I'm with Dr. Go on this one.

"that uphill ski has little edge angle, so it would be a feat to get it to hold if he chooses to." But he has no intention of getting that ski to hold, he's going to roll that ski downhill and ride a big base carved turn around and he will handle any speed he picks up.

"They are nearly ubiquitous among the young, athletic "extreme skiers" of today's popular ski films, doing "hop turns" with varying degrees of refinement down all kinds of terrain"

Have you seen a ski movie lately? HOP turns? haven't seen one of those in a movie in a while. But I did see Seth Morrison or Gordy Phieffer or Nobis pull into a snowplow to burn some speed before launching a 30'er in MTA. Looser freskiers got to snowplow to make it down the mountain, and I truly mean snowplow not the elegant gliding wedge.


I still say no problem.
post #122 of 136
Didn't have time earlier but I went over to the Skiing articles Doc's picture sequence came from. Doc if you go to the previous article (How to Ski Anything Steep Part I) and add Figure 1 in as the first picture in the sequence it will give a more complete picture of Eric's turn. I don't think this will necessarily change anyone's opinion of what is going on but it should be useful for others who view this thread in the future.
post #123 of 136
Hey All,

Writing from Whistler where it snowed today and the skiing is quite good. But anyway, Great discussion and I wish I could have commented earlier but have been really busy trying to stuff a few good ski tips into 40 second spots. Crazy. It's late and Ive had a couple cocktails after a major sushi fest so take this with a grain of salt!

So...that sequence above was shot in Squaw Valley on a slope of about 45 degrees with enough room for a short to medium radius turn. The turn as Holiday pointed out was to make a pedal carve turn. The dynamics are pretty simple. Shoulders are square to the FLOW line (more or less)in a countered postion and it's a firm edge set on nice corn snow. There no real upper body rotation where the shulders swing from side to side, rather the shoulders always face the direction of travel regardless of what part of the turn.

The realease of the turn (the top frame) is done by the relaxation/retraction of the outside foot in the first photo of the sequence. This naturally pulls the upper body into the new turn (down the hill) and new inside foot leads the edge change coming in light. You can see, as some have pointed out, that the inside foot gets closer to new outside foot as the skis come onto edge.

In addtion, I would add this to the discussion: I believe that the counter body position in the top frame provides the rotary energy to draw the skis into the turn. The focus of the movment therefore is more lateraly based. Simply to get the skis onto matching edge angles as early/quickly as possible with new inside ski leading the way while staying light on the snow. No conscious steering.

Also, by taking weight off the downhill ski to trigger the transition, there is a nutaral weight trasfer to the up hill ski to provide inherent energy for it to flow into the new turn with very little active effort. It really is less effort then any up unweighting. For Ott...try this, man. Realxing your outside leg to trigger the transition is very effective, then lead the edge change with this same foot coming in light into the new turn. Your weight and balance will be centered on the outside foot where you want it. How fast you do it can be determined by your speed and turn and turn radius.

OK... out of paid for time!! Hope this makes sense and continues this discussion. Also, that I'm not going on about things you guys already know. I spent some time reviewing this today but haven't really read through in this sitting as I'm buying time on a hotel computer!! LAST 45 seconds.

Eric D.
post #124 of 136
Well, here we go again...my post right after Powdigger asked if the picture of Dan was an example of an abstem, I posted the following:

>>>If it's intentional to get a platform to propell him over his uphill ski to make a turn, yes it is an abstem, but...

If he now simply allows his body to roll over the skis downhill, not likely because of the steepness of the slope, it would not be cosidered an abstem, it would be simply assuring a solid platform, which I think he is doing.

In order to be cosidered an abstem there must be a rebound from a platform to propell the CM over the other ski.

If I were skiing that slope(which I'm not, nor would I) I would make sure my downhill ski has a solid edge in the snow which would support my weight while I stand on it to start my turn with a weight shift to the new ski already starting to go downhill. This weight shift has to work by extending the new outside leg, it can't stay in a squat like that.

That move also will keep the body mass inside the turn. If Dan did not have a solidly set edge on his downhill ski he would have to just make a conventional turn by commiting his CM downhill and SKI the turn.<<<

Please note that I allowed for Dan's ability to make a CONVENTIONAL turn from the position he is in BY COMMITING HIS CM DOWNHILL.

Did you folks miss this, or what? All the following arguments were about whether or not a skier is seeking a solid edge, a "platform" or not, either by virtue of having the edge still set from a previous turn finish or by seeking an edge via a "check", two footed or one footed, aka as an abstem.

I allowed that Dan was in an awkward position, mainly because of his left leg being straight and his right leg being squatted, but nowhere did I say he couldn't make a turn from there, just what kind of turn he couldn't make, (as in taking his left leg away). A long sweeping turn, yes, but if the photographer was sitting on a rock and Dan had to turn sharply right now, it would behoove him to have a solid platform under his left ski from which he could catapult himself with a powerful rotary force, which, I'm sure, is no problem for him.

Now for those of you who believe that there are wrong moves in skiing. Carving, slipping, sliding, drifting, rotation, counter rotation, unweighting, simultanious or sequential edge change, abstem, upstem, hop turns, converging or diverging skis, and countless other moves all correct if they are done in balance or to regain balance.

And if you want to call yourself an expert skier you should be able to do any of these maneuvers in control.

Ahhh, that was refreshing [img]smile.gif[/img]

post #125 of 136
Thanks, Eric, come back here soon...

post #126 of 136
Great skiing Eric!

We are a bit jealous about your early season Tune Up time! Take us along next time Hugh? For the Sushi I mean, heheheh, bet the bill there was more than the airfare! (sound like you are getting PAID for it though!)

If I am reading this right and understanding what was going on with your skiing at Squaw, (Granit Chief or K2?) Is my point that FLOW is more important to style and Techinique TODAY than it has been in the past.

Dan in his situation as caught on the static shot we have to look at, (and drool over) as well as Eric's turn albiet pasted togeather and jumpy. Illustrate both the techinique on a steep pitch and the current ski technology. Allow the skier to be much more FLUID in thier STYLE.

The Flow is not interupted by CHECKS or STEMS unless the skier is TOTALY off the mark or balance in the moment. (a situation that both Dan and Eric probably due to thier superior athletic contitioning and skill, are rarely in)

We have had discussion about equal weighting and carve as well as Dynamic Turn or Carve technique. Here it is!

In racing this is important as we prefer to keep the ski in contact with the snow and in an optimal ARC to increase speed between two points. (gate to gate) These new skis allow us to replicate this in more and more challengeing conditions. This is good news for those of us who are "Recreational" skies as well as the Professional. Because we probably do not find ourselves on this steep of a run nor traveling with as agressive of line. (Not all the time anyway) So we get to enjoy the technilogy in a way that actualy allows us to ski like GODS or GODESSES in reference to the equipment and technique of years past.

Am I being CLEAR here?

Turns do not require, (with the current technology of ski & boot) that we need to pick up or stem or otherwise pose the ski against the flow in a radical braking action. It is actualy much easier to carve.

SO to wrap up Dan and Eric in a situation that OUR Experience would dictate wold call for some action to the ski which is stiff and little sidecut tool is not the answer for the NEW technology.


You guys are great, Hey if anyone is STILL confused send a PM and I will take ALL the time and pages to illustrate each and every word if so wish. The post is long enough and I wish not to bother those good folks who actualy DO GET IT!
post #127 of 136
hi guys,
good to hear from you eric, sounds pretty clear to me. Ott, moving down the hill in what you call a conventional turn is exactly what I think dan is going to do. You say it's too steep, but that is the key that makes it work so well. yes he will be maching, but that's big mountain free skiing.

Also, the extremely short leg, long leg position is not really awkward, but almost nessecary when skiing super steeps. go stand on that 45 to 50 degree pitch and you'll see what i mean.

Using eski again, if you check out his segment in this months skiing mag, it's similiar stuff, but look closely at pict. #3. You'll see a distict long leg, short leg, position. Also, for BB, check that shot and check out the hands. Not as clean as the other internet footage, more like dans, but not as rotated. I see what your talking about, I'd just focus less on the hands. Eric is not going to use rotation in the next turn here. Most likely as he releases this next turn, he'll be in the air, not blocked, and when the new stance ski hits the snow, it will be on a high edge angle and carve through the body of the turn. I''ve been out of the physics study part of ski exams for awhile, so maybe you can help bb, but i think when he gets airborne (see shot 2) that potential rotation is dissipated(sp?). what do you think?

Anyway, make it a great day.

post #128 of 136

I only have two minutes to post here but to answer your question the shot was in the doggy paw shoots on the corner of the palisades at Squaw. And I would say that Flow is more inherent and easier with modern skis. It is easier to ski well now with less effort and simplified movements result in stronger skiing. Out of time for a more detailed answer and the slopes await!!

post #129 of 136
Hi E,

If I can temporarily switch from methodology to "snowology"..... If you get a chance post a note on conditions today. I'm heading to Whistler next Wednesday. I've talked to friends there but not since the newest front came through yesterday.

Thanks, Si
post #130 of 136
Well, I'm glad we have all this cleared up. Now what has this to do with Harald Harb's message posted by SCSA?

post #131 of 136
Point well taken Ott. This string is now at 130 posts and four pages. Kill it.
post #132 of 136
Yeah, I'll call it. This one is done. New thread time.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 29, 2001 03:44 PM: Message edited 1 time, by PowDigger ]</font>
post #133 of 136
yeah, but...
post #134 of 136
It figures a Red Sox fan would be the one trying to breathe life into a corpse.
post #135 of 136
Hey Si...the conditions here in Whistler are powder after the recent system dropped about a foot at higher elevations. Hiked Whistler peak today and had a great run. It's still early season here with some hidden rocks still around. More snow in the forecast so it should be realy good when you get here on Wed. Good luck and bring your beacon and avy gear to get the most out of the mountain!!

post #136 of 136
There have been several requests to close this thread. I am doing so and I suggest you continue all the off shoot dialogs in new threads. I will create a new thread for the HH notes.
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