EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › Resetting Atomic Metron edge angle from 3 to 2 - advisable?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Resetting Atomic Metron edge angle from 3 to 2 - advisable?

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 

Love my metrons and everything about them as theyve never let me down, but the 3 degree edge angle can be a bit much sometimes when im not feeling like I want to go all out. Ive heard of people resetting a factory edge angle down a degree or a half a degree. Im thinking of taking it back to 2 to "calm it down" a bit. I am totally aware I can't go back to 3 once I go to 2.

 

Has anyone had any experience with anything like this?

 

Thanks in advance

post #2 of 17

Yes, you can do it.  Not sure if you should do it; that depends on how much edge you have left and in what kind of shape its in.  What degree is the base edge at?  If you haven't touched it since your last grind, it could be totally flat and giving the feel of "too much" also.

post #3 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andromeda86 View Post
 I am totally aware I can't go back to 3 once I go to 2.

 

I'm just learning about tuning, so could someone knowledgeable explain why you can't go back to 3? It seems to me that if there's enough metal left it would be pretty simple to take it back to a 3-degree edge.
 

post #4 of 17


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andromeda86 View Post

 I am totally aware I can't go back to 3 once I go to 2.



Why ever not?   It might take a little bit of sidewall trim-off but it's totally doable.

 

Which Metron do you have?   

 

I'm thinking the whole 3->2 edge change is relatively easy to do  but may not give you the results you're looking for (making the Metron 'cruisy' for your size/weight /stance).    

post #5 of 17

you can certainly restore a 3 degree edge angle after you have reduced it to 2 degrees, you just have to trim back the side wall and use an agressive file is all.   

 

I  think mdechristopher has it right.  I bet the base angle has gotten too flat from something.  Or perhaps the base itself has gotten concave.  a possibility with the width of a metron and that will be really hooky.  A flatter base angle of say 1/2degree will feel hookier compared to say a 1 degree base. 

 

A 3 vs 2 degree side edge you probably won't notice a difference in squirrlyness but you will feel a more stable edge grip once engaged with teh 3.

post #6 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andromeda86 View Post

Love my metrons and everything about them as theyve never let me down, but the 3 degree edge angle can be a bit much sometimes when im not feeling like I want to go all out. Ive heard of people resetting a factory edge angle down a degree or a half a degree. Im thinking of taking it back to 2 to "calm it down" a bit. I am totally aware I can't go back to 3 once I go to 2.

 

Has anyone had any experience with anything like this?

 

Thanks in advance

Andromeda86,

 

In the diagram below the green is the side wall, fat black horizontal line is the base, dark silver and yellow lines represent 2 deg and red and blue 3 deg.  The light silver line is the base edge.  The skinny black lines are just for reference to 90 deg.  Sorry for my ametuerish picture but I'm sure you can see my point.

 

So, if you originally had a 2 degree side (silver) and then went to 3 (red), the only difference is how far over you could get and how well the edge will hold.  I don't understand how going to 2 will calm it down.  If you change the base or as has been mentioned, grind and reset the base to 1, you probably will notice a difference.  Imagine the base edge having less angle.  This will make it grab quicker like a slalom ski.
Edge Angles.png

TSG,

You can.  The issue is you use up a lot of edge doing it and could run out.  If you start at 3 (red), go to 2 (yellow), there might not be enough edge for 3 again (blue).  Going from red to yellow shows how much base edge is lost from going 3 to 2 and to go back to 3 you could run into the side wall.  That uses up a lot of edge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TallSkinnyGuy View Post

I'm just learning about tuning, so could someone knowledgeable explain why you can't go back to 3? It seems to me that if there's enough metal left it would be pretty simple to take it back to a 3-degree edge.
 

post #7 of 17

Nothing to it, if you know what you're doing. Easily go from a 3 to a 2 and back to a 3 an you are not going run pout of edge.  I just does not take much off.

 

But you should really leave your skis at a 3 degree side edge! . Much better edgehold with no downside. (The rumor that a 3 does not last as long as a 2 is whoskow!) I 'll take a slightly less sharp 3 over a sharp 2 if it were true anyway!

 

It is your base bevel that makes the biggest difference in ski behavior.

 

Make sure you have a true 1 degree base bevel and your skis should ski very smoothly and easy.

 

By the way, whihc Metron do you have an how old are they. Howm many days ahve they be skied since they were tuned.

 

post #8 of 17

Piece of cake. Here's the reverse to give a sense of scale (click to enlarge) Note the edge is drawn at 2mm:

 

increaseSBto3.PNG

 

One of these days I'll draw decreasing angle option.

 

The process to remove the very small 1° of material can be pretty quick. just for apples to apples (and grins) I prepared a pair of edges .5/2 & the other 1/3 and swapped feet. It gives you a very clear sense of the differences on the same snow, day and terrain and reduces subjectivity. You might consider just changing one pair of inside edges and leave the others alone and then tweak later.

 

Here's the link to our Tuning Tip post on Asymmetrical Edge Geometry

 


Edited by Alpinord - 10/25/10 at 8:46pm
post #9 of 17

Terry,

 

Quote:
  ...."I prepared a pair of edges .5/2 & the other 1/3 and swapped feet.

 

You're going to have to post pictures on how to do that one!

 

post #10 of 17

There are two simple approaches to accomplish feet swapping that I'm aware of:

1) Take your left boot and foot from your left leg to your right. Change the right boot and foot from right leg to your left.

2) A quicker and less invasive approach is to simply cross one foot with ski behind or in front of the other then point 'em downhill and turn both ways.


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

Terry,

 

 

You're going to have to post pictures on how to do that one!

 

post #11 of 17


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_j View Post

you can certainly restore a 3 degree edge angle after you have reduced it to 2 degrees, you just have to trim back the side wall and use an agressive file is all.   

 

I  think mdechristopher has it right.  I bet the base angle has gotten too flat from something.  Or perhaps the base itself has gotten concave.  a possibility with the width of a metron and that will be really hooky.  A flatter base angle of say 1/2degree will feel hookier compared to say a 1 degree base. 

 

A 3 vs 2 degree side edge you probably won't notice a difference in squirrlyness but you will feel a more stable edge grip once engaged with teh 3.


Now that skier_j mentions it,Atomic has always had issues with base concavity (even from the factory).  Ask your local tuner -- he'll tell you how frustrating it is to lay a grind on.  I would honestly put my money on concave base (edge high) or simply a "flat" base bevel being the route of your trouble.  Going up to a 3-degree will just mean your edges dull quicker.  Try getting them ground and applying a 1 degree base bevel; I think it will solve your problems.

post #12 of 17


We  have yet to get an answer to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post

Which Metron do you have?   

 

I'm thinking the whole 3->2 edge change is relatively easy to do  but may not give you the results you're looking for (making the Metron 'cruisy' for your size/weight /stance).    

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

By the way, whihc Metron do you have an how old are they. Howm many days ahve they be skied since they were tuned.

 




While I agree that changing base bevels is going to give more perceptible results,

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdechristopher View Post


 

.  I would honestly put my money on concave base (edge high) or simply a "flat" base bevel being the route of your trouble.  Going up to a 3-degree will just mean your edges dull quicker.  Try getting them ground and applying a 1 degree base bevel; I think it will solve your problems.


 

As I was saying to skier_j backchannel,   it is quite possible   Andromeda86 does _NOT_  mean the ski has gotten hookier since she has owned it.    I read her question  as: "The ski is perfectly fine and just the same as it ever was, it's just that I don't feel like doing that much work all the time".

 

In which case, a different ski in a different flex is going be a better idea than any change to side OR base bevels.    Metrons were never known for a "just cruising along" feel.  

post #13 of 17



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdechristopher View Post


 


Now that skier_j mentions it,Atomic has always had issues with base concavity (even from the factory).  Ask your local tuner -- he'll tell you how frustrating it is to lay a grind on. 

 

Most if not all Metrons were only concave in the center of the tip and tail. This had no negative effect on sthe ski's performance since all you need is a flat base about 10-mm in from each edge.  You should never try to grind a ski like this flat. You will just dramatically shorten the life of the ski or ruin the ski completely.  

 

 

I would honestly put my money on concave base (edge high) or simply a "flat" base bevel being the route of your trouble. 

Seldom do these skis have too little base bevel, if anything usually too much and if they have been skied a bunch unless recently stoneground to flat with no base bevel, this is probably not what the problem is.  Could be a hanging burr though.

 

Going up to a 3-degree will just mean your edges dull quicker:

 

The paragraph below was written by SKiMD Mike DeSantis, pay special attention to the underlined portion!

 

SkiMD produces all side edge angles at 3.0 degrees. More factories are realizing that it’s worth the hassle to recalibrate side edge machinery to this parameter. Why? Because shaped skis are able to achieve higher tip angles with greater leverage than straight skis. As a result, skis with less than 3 degrees of side edge will have a tendency to chatter, as the upper portion of edge interfaces with the skiing surface and “boots out” the lower portion.
Never let anyone try to convince you that this is too radical, or that it gets duller quicker. No information exists to support that theory. The difference in material removal between a 2 or 3 degree side edge angle is truly minimal over a side edge height of 2-2.5 millimeters. However, the difference in performance when asking your skis to do what you want is profound.
 

 

   Mike's credentials:

 

 Mike de Santis founded, owns and operates SkiMD. His experience is unsurpassed at the retail level, allowing the beginner through expert or racing participant access to  factory level service. 20 years of continual development has created an ideal refinishing system that works for everyone.

 While at Volkl, Mike was overwhelmed with the negative feedback on the company website from consumers in regards to their first “shop stonegrind.” The retail effort back then and now continue to be apathetic regarding the proper restoration and installation of tuning parameters. Realizing the need for someone in the ski service industry who could consistently deliver the proper finish to shaped skis and snowboards, is what prompted Mike to leave Volkl and develop the SkiMD Refinishing System.

Mike’s extensive background combined with 43 years in the sport of skiing, are instrumental to his success:


  • Graduate Stratton Mountain Ski Academy 79’
  • NCAA competitor UVM Ski Team
  • Physical Education Degree UVM 84’
  • 7 years World Cup Technician/ WC Race Director for Volkl
  • 4 years Product Development Manager for Volkl
  • Member Volkl International Test Team
  • Lifetime Achievement Award for excellence in the fields of World Cup Service and Product Development for Volkl Skis.
  • Technical service consultant for Volkl, Blizzard, Dynastar and Elan skis



Mike created his own proprietary finishes for top athletes such as Hilary Lindh, the 97’ DH World Champion. Kate Pace, the 93’ DH World Champion. Katja Seizinger, the overall World Cup women’s downhill winner many seasons over. Other athletes include Picabo Street, Kristina Koznick, Heidi Voelker, and former U.S. Snowboarding Team athlete Rosy Fletcher, Olympic Bronze medalist. Working in tandem with Volkl Germany, allowed Mike access to some of the very best factory technicians in the world. Combined with deep factory knowledge of ski design and construction, the foundation was built to create a system that has such a broad level of success. This is what truly differentiates SkiMD from all the rest.

   
  

post #14 of 17

Not to argue the point, but...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Most if not all Metrons were only concave in the center of the tip and tail. This had no negative effect on sthe ski's performance since all you need is a flat base about 10-mm in from each edge.  You should never try to grind a ski like this flat. You will just dramatically shorten the life of the ski or ruin the ski completely.
 

I didn't mean to grind the skis into ruin just to get them flat; if a standard conventional stonegrind is not enough to flatten the skis, it seems to me that the skis are defective.  But that's just me; after spending ~$700 on skis, I would be awfully angry to hear "oh, sure, they're concave but that shouldn't affect performance."  Sounds a little like: "Oh sure, the gas pedal sticks but that won't matter."

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 
Never let anyone try to convince you that this is too radical, or that it gets duller quicker. No information exists to support that theory. The difference in material removal between a 2 or 3 degree side edge angle is truly minimal over a side edge height of 2-2.5 millimeters. However, the difference in performance when asking your skis to do what you want is profound.


Now I won't debate this, because you didn't write it (Mike did), and I agree with it 100%.  But just to clarify my point, the difference in the durability of the edge cannot be measured by just the side edge; the effective angle of the side and base edge determines this.  For example, a three degree side edge and a three degree base edge WILL be more durable than a three degree side edge and a one degree base edge.  We can bring up various studies of knife edge dullness some other time (since I don't have the copies here -- they're at my office).

 

post #15 of 17



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdechristopher View Post

Not to argue the point, but...

 

I didn't mean to grind the skis into ruin just to get them flat; if a standard conventional stonegrind is not enough to flatten the skis, it seems to me that the skis are defective.  But that's just me; after spending ~$700 on skis, I would be awfully angry to hear "oh, sure, they're concave but that shouldn't affect performance."  Sounds a little like: "Oh sure, the gas pedal sticks but that won't matter."

 

Some concavity in the tip and tail do not a defective ski make. It is just the way it is on some wider skis and is  the continuation of the curing process after manufacture. Again as long as you have 10-15mm of flat in from the edges you wouldn't know they are concave by skiing on them only with a true bar.

 

 


Now I won't debate this, because you didn't write it (Mike did), and I agree with it 100%.  But just to clarify my point, the difference in the durability of the edge cannot be measured by just the side edge; the effective angle of the side and base edge determines this.  For example, a three degree side edge and a three degree base edge WILL be more durable than a three degree side edge and a one degree base edge.  We can bring up various studies of knife edge dullness some other time (since I don't have the copies here -- they're at my office).

 

Your case is purely academic in reference to a 3 degree base edge because no one would ever in their right mind would use more then a 1 degree base edge. (Maybe a park rat, OK, I'kk give you )that)

 

 

So we are really talking some combination of a .5, .7 and 1 and 1 , 2 or 3 side edge. Mike's point is with that little difference in material ove a small edge profile, you are not going to tell the difference in how quickly a ski dulls comparatively.

 

And since he recommends a 1 egree base bevel for recreational skiers, that takes the base edge difference out of the eqauarion, A 1 degree side edge is useless so we are talkin the difference between a 1/2 and 1/3.  And I submit the difference between a .5/2 and a .5 3 is also negligible in regard to time to dullness.



 

post #16 of 17

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Your case is purely academic in reference to a 3 degree base edge because no one would ever in their right mind would use more then a 1 degree base edge. (Maybe a park rat, OK, I'kk give you )that)

 

 

So we are really talking some combination of a .5, .7 and 1 and 1 , 2 or 3 side edge. Mike's point is with that little difference in material ove a small edge profile, you are not going to tell the difference in how quickly a ski dulls comparatively.

 

And since he recommends a 1 egree base bevel for recreational skiers, that takes the base edge difference out of the eqauarion, A 1 degree side edge is useless so we are talkin the difference between a 1/2 and 1/3.  And I submit the difference between a .5/2 and a .5 3 is also negligible in regard to time to dullness.
 


Negligible, yes -- that's a good word for it, but not nonexistent.  Especially since the information that "doesn't exist to support this" does in fact exist on an academic level.  Nonetheless, I think we're saying the same thing at this point.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Some concavity in the tip and tail do not a defective ski make. It is just the way it is on some wider skis and is  the continuation of the curing process after manufacture. Again as long as you have 10-15mm of flat in from the edges you wouldn't know they are concave by skiing on them only with a true bar.

 

I don't know, Atomicman.  My skis are all true-bar flat :-)  But that's a topic for another thread.

post #17 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdechristopher View Post

 

 

 

I don't know, Atomicman.  My skis are all true-bar flat :-)  But that's a topic for another thread.

 

Yes on most race skis, you are the exception if they are fat skis

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › Resetting Atomic Metron edge angle from 3 to 2 - advisable?