or Connect
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

What Dat?

post #1 of 31
Thread Starter 


<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 29, 2001 10:57 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Dr.GO ]</font>
post #2 of 31
I would say no abstem. It is more like a strong check with the downhill ski to set up a platform. I see no upper body over-rotation, which is normally associated with an abstem. But even if there was an abstem, with terrain like that, who would mind?
post #3 of 31
TomB's comment is dead on. Let's all consider the context of some of these photos.

I assume that Dr. Go posted this partly as a tweak on some of the more recent threads, but it seems like there's quite a bit of micro-analysis going on in this forum.

Dissecting individual photo frames of practically *any* skier's turns can result in all kinds of conclusions. I know, because there are a couple of pictures around where even *I* look like I can ski.

Try doing a frame-by-frame analysis of Franz Klammer's immortal Olympic Downhill run and you'd probably see a bunch of images that would make the technique police stampede to their keyboards.

I'm just saying that I think it's awfully hard to make meaningful technique judgements if all you're seeing is a two-dimensional image that represents 1/250th of a second. Or even 2 seconds of video played over a computer screen.

Harpo, I think it was your friend's images in Suicide that were the subject of one of these dissections. Since I happen to know what that chute is like, his skiing looked pretty d**n good to me.

Rant over. Now back to the regularly scheduled program...

post #4 of 31
Hey Dr. Go,
are you a little obsessed with this abstem idea? You keep putting these pictures of eric in the forum and he's gonna get a big head.

Anyway, same exact move we were talking about in the dead thread, but this demo of it has a little more exposure. Hey ott, take a look at that short leg, long leg I was talking about in my last post.

Love your use of technology, dr. GO.

Powder day in tahoe today; a foot of new fun stuff.
post #5 of 31
Holiday, I can't really equate cliff jumping with skiing, it's a speciality which is practiced by a fraction of one percent of skiers and not many of us ski like that, nor can I equate the students we have taught in our classes with World Cup racers.

The many races we have are amateurish and the few cliffs we have are usually jumped by ten year old kids.

As for the abstem, it is nearly as old as the Telemark and used for the same reason, to play with it, certainly not needed on our courdoroy.

But it is still nice to know it...

post #6 of 31
Can't see the picture, Dr. G--just a red "X." You've got to give us more clues than that! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

EDIT--ah, now it's there. Let's see....

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 29, 2001 06:06 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Bob Barnes/Colorado ]</font>
post #7 of 31
I think my friend Bob Peters is right on. However, don't believe his modesty - he's quite a skier who loves to ski in steep terrain. Definitely a "from the foot" skier with a beautifully balanced stance. What I've gotten out of DrGo's posts with pictures of Eric is a great impression of someone who exemplifies what he's preaching. In both this picture sequence and the previous one the one thing that seems most obvious to me is the relaxation/retraction of the old outside (new inside ski) and his smooth balanced entry into the new turn on some pretty challenging terrain. I find this quite motivational as the movements and sensation of turns like this are most definitely my goal in terrain like this.

Holiday, I'm sorry if I make your life a little tougher by making comments like this but who wouldn't want to be able to ski like this???

Ott, can't say I would call this cliff jumping. To paraphrase BB's line I would call this a lesson on how to ski a difficult (at least by my standards) line smooth and easy. That's the trouble (and joy) of skiing with a guy like this - they make you believe it's all doable.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 29, 2001 10:04 PM: Message edited 2 times, by Si ]</font>
post #8 of 31
Eric who?
post #9 of 31

can ski.

Hook in Ab, no stem required.

Go speak!!!! Time for bowling!

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 30, 2001 05:10 AM: Message edited 2 times, by man from oz ]</font>
post #10 of 31
Nice Skiing! Rotary push off with a peddle turn?
post #11 of 31
Thread Starter 
I see a skier who is having FUN, skiing like he wants to ski, on terrain that was put there to skied!

Groomed is fine but natural is SUBLIME!

So he drops in, Takes a moment to get a WIDE base before the cliff and WOOOP! (In he goes)

IT is better to go WIDE when a question is on your mind! (I watch FIS racers do it all the time!)
post #12 of 31

Whoop !!! Pepis & Bowling lets rip.

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #13 of 31
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by oboe:
Eric who?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Oboe,

Eric DesLauriers a contributing author for Skiing Magazine one of the operators of All mountain Ski Pros

We fondly know of him here as Eski [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #14 of 31
Thread Starter 
WOOOP! (In he goes)

IT is better to go WIDE when a question is on your mind!

Yeah OZ I thought I could fool you with the CODE, inside message stuff!

(how many inuendos can you find in there anyway?)
post #15 of 31
On one of their tapes, I thought that Eric and Rob DesLauriers called that an "airplane turn", to be done in situations such as the one pictured and off cornices.
post #16 of 31
Hi Si,
Great discription of the photo. Contrary to what ott said about cliff jumping, Eric is just making a turn. Not only that, as you stated, he is showing us that the technique's we are teaching to int. skiers have no ceiling.

I don't believe we can disregard the highest level. By not equating this level and world cup technique, (once again using Ott's words), into our teaching, we are short changing our students. The progressions we teach should try to avoid dead end movements, and movements that don't work to the top levels are dead end movements.

Ski schools lost many students in years past due partly to this perception. the young people and even not so young that wanted to break through to the next level often didn't see what they were looking for in watching instructors ski. the term poodle turns was coined for this image of a group of instructors making slow somewhat posed turns down moderate terrain. (like trained poodles). I think the image has improved, partly do to the new skis, because a larger number of instructors are skiing agressively. Anyway, got to run, work calls and the fresh snow needs my attention.

until later...


P.S. Ott, on the whole, I've agreed with most of your knowlegeable and long term perspective. I've only taken issue on this last couple ideas. I understand that maybe this aspect of skiing wasn't part of your teaching career, but it is part of ski teaching. The majority of our clientel would love to make this same exact turn eric is making in the clip (hell I'd love to make that move, it's so clean). We attempt to use technical and pychological progressions to try to make this possible.
cheers, h
post #17 of 31
Si: Ott, can't say I would call this cliff jumping.

Sorry guys, but this is cliff jumping (looks like 15-20 feet or so). Maybe the entry is more elegant than the average jump, but let's not pretend that this is "just a nice turn in difficult terrain". :
post #18 of 31
OK, Holiday, I've been out of teaching for 15 years and you are right, we did not teach or even consider teaching cliff jumping techniques, but if it is now what the student strives for, I presume it should be incorporated.

The same with WC racing, in which the racer tries to get down the hill the fastest way possible while we used to teach students to ski at moderate speed and lots of control, not that many didn't disregarded that and bombed anyway.

I presume that I concern myself with the 3000+ skiers who take lessons every single day during the season in our two hills with 240 vertical. Pierre, Powdigger and zeek will have to teach them and I think that they strive to give the skier a solid base from which to advance. I never mentioned anything that could be considered a dead end maneuver, did I? Maybe I did, but what is it? The check, unweighting, abstem, telemark, platform or what?

post #19 of 31
Hi Tom,

I'm not sure it's worth arguing about the semantics of what a cliff jump is. By my estimate (height of skier) I would say that this jump was 10-15 feet at most. When executed as demonstrated, however, (not a condition taken lightly by me) this particular jump becomes "just" another turn that is very little different than if Eric had been on the snow the whole time. That, I think is just the goal of many steep skiing camps, to teach skiers the technical competence to execute a turn like this and at the same time get them to deal with the psychological aspects so they recognize that this is very little different than making a turn on a very steep section of solid ground. As the height of a jump goes up there comes a point where this similarity may certainly be lost (perhaps at a different point for each skier). In the example shown the approach and line chosen is very critical to one being able to picture this as "just" another turn (as is usually the case). Put me in this situation on my own and I would probably creep to the edge and try to "fall in" safely. Let me watch Eric do it in front of me (perhaps a couple of times) and I just might be able to turn it into "just" another turn.

Whether it is or isn't a cliff jump is in the eye of the beholder. If, however, I think about it as such I'm unlikely (at my skill level) to ever ski this with any flow whatsoever. If I think about it as just another turn I actually believe I've got a chance.

Personal note: I'm not sure whether I'll be attempting anything like this anymore now that I have a hip replacement. However, watching the sequence above makes me think that just maybe I can attempt a jump like this (no higher for sure) with the right preparation and practice.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 30, 2001 11:30 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Si ]</font>
post #20 of 31
Cliff Jumping 1960 style:

Photo by Ott Gangl, copyright 2001

Notice the vigerous style and the awe of the spectators.

Photo by Ott Gangl, copyright 2001
...and the braking action with the fingernails..

This is on a little cliff on a little hill in Akron, Ohio...so there...


<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 22, 2001 07:49 AM: Message edited 4 times, by Ott Gangl ]</font>
post #21 of 31
Thread Starter 
Yeah Si,

I agree with you!

There is probably more VERTICAL in this littel rock outcropping that ERIC is droping in off of than there is at Boyne, Nubs, or anything in OHIO.

So is it CLIFF JUMPING or just a drop in?

You be the judge?

Nice Landing Ott! (chin up, skis togeather, GOTTA look good)

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 30, 2001 11:35 AM: Message edited 2 times, by Dr.GO ]</font>
post #22 of 31

Great demonstration of self-arrest technique. There is no doubt we still have things to learn from you.
post #23 of 31
Yeah, Si, the worst that happened to the jumper on this jump was that he split the seam on the back of his pants

post #24 of 31
I just edited my post of the pictures of the jumper in order to put my credit and copyright on them.

As a photojournalist I am very concerned about the pirating of images. Just because an individual or a magazine, like SKIING, puts images on a forum or a web page doesn't mean they are in the public domain to be used by anyone without permission.

AC some time ago admonished folks who post pictures here to either be the author and copyright holder or have permission from the copyright holders, in this case SKIING Magazine.

It doesn't take much to drop them an e-mail advising them of the intended use in this forum and by my experience they would gladly give a release FOR THIS USE ONLY, you would have to get permission again to use the image on a T-shirt or as wallpaper on you computer or to print a poster.

While personal use, like computer wallpaper is a breach of copyright, it isn't as serious as using it for profit or re-publishing it in any way including in a forum.

If the photographer sees those pictures here on the forum, and he has granted a "One-time publishing rights only" in the contract to SKIING, he will send a bill to SKIING for additional use of the picture, I know I have, many times.

It was a hard court battle in 1976 that we photographers won and that resulted in a change of the copyright law, and then again about ten years ago when Time/Life and National Geographic were cutting CDs and putting pictures on their web sites without compensating the photographers for republication. At one time there were no photographers willing to work for those outfits because of that and the courts again sided with us.

All the pictures I have put up on the forum I have either shot myself or they were shot of me and I was given the copyright.

Since 1976, as soon as the shutter is pressed on a camera BY ANYONE, they own the copyright to that latent image and any photographs that may result WITHOUT having to register them or putting a copyright notice on or beneath the picture.

Reistration only assures that in court a photographer can also demand punitive damage.

It's just that I'm concerned. I love to see that shot of DAN and it is legitimate since only a link to it was established and it doesn't exist on another web site (or does it?), while Dr.Go did those fabulous moving images from the SKIING web site and manipulated them and never gave the photographer credit. What if Hank de Vre sees this? If that happens to my pictures I get pissed, and it has before and I have won.

dchan, I don't know if you want to leave this message here or move it, do as you please but make sure folks can see it.

May this never happen to Nancy...


<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 30, 2001 12:44 PM: Message edited 2 times, by Ott Gangl ]</font>
post #25 of 31
Context might be appropriate. I remember this photo from an article in skiing magazine. The point was to describe to advanced skiers how to negotiate moderate drops.

I don't have the magazine anymore, but I recall the description of the two photos that have been animated together here, read something like - set-up for the drop by completing your turn and unweighting as you clear the edge. Then to do an air turn into your new line.

Now for my feable attempt at humor: To reinforce what someone else posted, here is a link to a major tumble by Gordy P. Do you see an Abstem (whatever that is) in his approach? Maybe that is what caused him to flip? Or maybe it was the sudden stop from a 60 foot drop onto a sketchy transition that did it? http://www.tetongravity.com/exposed/bulge.html

If you can't get to the link, go to tetongravity.com and click on profiles.
post #26 of 31
Bill, the link worked fine...so a Michigan boy who skied in Brighton, the 150 ft hill consisting of 50 years of garbage from Ann Arbor, is jumping cliffs, oh well [img]smile.gif[/img]

post #27 of 31
Thread Starter 

I went up to MICHIGAN for ONE season to help out an area that was going OB. (that is OUT OF BUSINESS, for CLEARITY SAKE)

And I was so bored that I left the AREA to go skiing out west Twice IN SEASON!

Even weekly escursions to Nubs and Boyne were well, boring!

I see why Stein Ericson Left Boyne as soon as his contract was up!

You know that way back when BOYNE hired skiers who actualy knew how to ski to come to their hill and MAKE BUMPS for them? (I am under the impression that these skiers were from OUT WEST, Vail to be exact)


<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 01, 2001 10:24 AM: Message edited 2 times, by Dr.GO ]</font>
post #28 of 31
Dr. Go, I skied Boyne before Vail was built and there were moguls on Hemlock and some on Victor.

Everett Kirchner always had an Austrian ski school, and though an avid supporter of PSIA, he was the last to give up the Autrians...

Ottmar Schneider, an Austrian Olympic gold medal winner was the director for a long time and the many Austrian instructors ripped.

Erickson goes where the money is...he is a business man first and formost. I never heard the story of Vail mogul makers, even snowplowers who ski steep stuff will make moguls.

You are just pulling my leg :

..Ott (Ottmar)
post #29 of 31
Thread Starter 
Urban Ledgend I assume.

Of course there is this book .....

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 01, 2001 11:00 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Dr.GO ]</font>
post #30 of 31
...decided I posted this in the wrong place, so here it is under the clip it was refering to (first post).

Hi there,
sounds like my ideas were a little misinterpreted. Let's go back to the reason I mentioned dead end moves.

"Holiday, I can't really equate cliff jumping with skiing, it's a speciality which is practiced by a fraction of one percent of skiers and not many of us ski like that, nor can I equate the students we have taught in our classes with World Cup racers" Ott

As dchan said, ott didn't espouse any dead end moves. I just extrapolated that by discounting the highest end of ski technique (not the air), there almost has to be a dead end. This cliff jumping, extreme idea, keeps coming up as well, but I was speaking of the entirety of the clip shown, not the fact he gets some air. Some yahoo going straight off this same cliff in a full face helmet, out of balance to the rear, and rolling down the windows would still be "cliff jumping" but it would not be what I felt this discussion was about. If you look at that clip, and see solid basics, with an emphasis on relaxing to release the old turn, stabilized by a strong upper body and pole plant, and the cm flowing across the skis into the new turn (albeit, 15 feet farther down the hill), then you can equate this to skiing. It is taking the solid basics and putting them to work with more forces to deal with and the stakes a little higher. anyway, sorry for beating the horse. I didn't mean to offend you Ott, I just had trouble with that paragraph.
Anyway, hope I didn't step on my keyboard with this one.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching