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There's nothing wrong with a skidded turn. - Page 2

post #31 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilT View Post

Ok, terminology difference here.

 

For me carving = firm snow. Powder = floating or whatever. I can "carve" skis on powder, but its really not the same thing. 



 

Just like carving with a snowboard in powder is not the same thing as carving on a hard groomer.

post #32 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post

Great skiing. Although I'd argue that for the vast majority of the population that level of skiing is not realistic.


Totally agree. Its as far off as looking at a wc dh race and thinking of doing the same.
 

post #33 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post




Totally agree. Its as far off as looking at a wc dh race and thinking of doing the same.
 



 True, but I think it was pretty inspiring. Pretty cool for the worlds best DH skiier to rip in the off piste like that (I wonder what his sponsors think smile.gif ). I saw a clip of Defago and he was not even close to Svindals performance.

 

I wonder what kind of skis he uses for off-piste, they look kind of narrow with todays standards.

post #34 of 99

Skid: skis, when turning are moving in an unintended direction- uncontrolled edging

 

Brushed, scarved= skis turning in the intended direction, intentional and controlled edging

post #35 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post

Skid: skis, when turning are moving in an unintended direction- uncontrolled edging

 

Brushed, scarved= skis turning in the intended direction, intentional and controlled edging


pretty broad definition there.

 

so whats a pivot slip then? is it inintended direction or uncontrolled edging?

post #36 of 99

I have said it here before....  Carving is over rated and mostly lauded by people who haven't learned to do it.  Carving is a ton of fun, but it won't take you all over the mountain.  IMO the shmear or slarve is a much more versatile tactic.  Yes the WC skiers in the video carved some of their powder turns.  They also shmeared a few.  They were also on some huge faces and made large turns at high speed.  Off Piste in trees or rock studded runs, you might not have enough room to carve a turn.  You might not want the speed that comes with a pure carved turn.  IMO the shmear is a high level turn.  It is deliberate and shaped through all phases of the turn...  Just like a carved turn.  In fact the main difference between a high level "skidded" turn and a carved turn is that the skill blend is shifted more towards edging.  A well shmeared turn is like a 4 wheel drifted turn in auto racing.  The driver uses the drift as a tactic to make a tighter turn at a higher speed than he could without breaking loose.   The driver is shaping his turn.  If he didn't he would just "skid" into the wall.

 

A pivot slip is an intended direction and highly controlled edging.

 

Most skiers I meet can't do a decent pivot slip.  It is a very deliberate and specific movement.  It's not a way to ski.  It is the extreme end of the turning spectrum.  A "turn" using no edging.  A pure carved turn is the other end of the spectrum.  A turn with little or no active rotary.  I carve where I have the room.  I love carving.  I carve turns in powder down the Hobacks where there are large wide open spaces.  I shmear powder through the Ranger Rocks or Alta 1 where I don't have room to carve.  Good skiers should be able to dial in any turn size, style, or shape for their intended outcome.  There is nothing wrong with a skidded turn!

post #37 of 99

Carving in powder is a mis-nomer. The skis displace the snow underfoot, so the tip and tail really can't pass over the same spot. At best we're talking about a less steered turn where the skis plane through the snow and the snow compacting under that pressure gives us a soft but variable platform. It's also worth noting that most set ups feature the bindings mounted aft of the ski's cord length. This makes the tails naturally sink a bit more than the tips, which again means getting the tip and tail to pass through the same spot is very difficult.

 

I liked the training video and the concepts they present. Varying the point that you begin carving allows you to scrub speed without throwing a full on side slip into the mix. I remember watching some of our juniors take the "carve everywhere" advice too literally and end up unable to maintain their line, so they would throw a full on side slip in to scrub off some speed. That's the problem with the all or nothing advice we see out there.  

post #38 of 99



can you just clarify your statement? I think you agreeing with my definition (got this from John clendenin BTW) In the first bolded area you have a great example of the difference between a shaped slide/drift/scarve vs. skidding out of control (non controlled or directed) and again in the 2nd bolded area, you also define the turn as being in control and by intent (design) but then say there's nothing wrong with a skidded turn. I think if you need to control the shape and speed of a turn, a skidded turn is not such a good thing. No arguments from me. This is just my non-professional opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

I have said it here before....  Carving is over rated and mostly lauded by people who haven't learned to do it.  Carving is a ton of fun, but it won't take you all over the mountain.  IMO the shmear or slarve is a much more versatile tactic.  Yes the WC skiers in the video carved some of their powder turns.  They also shmeared a few.  They were also on some huge faces and made large turns at high speed.  Off Piste in trees or rock studded runs, you might not have enough room to carve a turn.  You might not want the speed that comes with a pure carved turn.  IMO the shmear is a high level turn.  It is deliberate and shaped through all phases of the turn...  Just like a carved turn.  In fact the main difference between a high level "skidded" turn and a carved turn is that the skill blend is shifted more towards edging.  A well shmeared turn is like a 4 wheel drifted turn in auto racing.  The driver uses the drift as a tactic to make a tighter turn at a higher speed than he could without breaking loose.   The driver is shaping his turn.  If he didn't he would just "skid" into the wall.

 

A pivot slip is an intended direction and highly controlled edging.

 

Most skiers I meet can't do a decent pivot slip.  It is a very deliberate and specific movement.  It's not a way to ski.  It is the extreme end of the turning spectrum.  A "turn" using no edging.  A pure carved turn is the other end of the spectrum.  A turn with little or no active rotary.  I carve where I have the room.  I love carving.  I carve turns in powder down the Hobacks where there are large wide open spaces.  I shmear powder through the Ranger Rocks or Alta 1 where I don't have room to carve.  Good skiers should be able to dial in any turn size, style, or shape for their intended outcome.  There is nothing wrong with a skidded turn!

post #39 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

A well shmeared turn is like a 4 wheel drifted turn in auto racing.  The driver uses the drift as a tactic to make a tighter turn at a higher speed than he could without breaking loose.   The driver is shaping his turn.  If he didn't he would just "skid" into the wall.

 

 

Best explanation of a shmeared turn I've come across yet!

 

 

 

Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

Good skiers should be able to dial in any turn size, style, or shape for their intended outcome.  There is nothing wrong with a skidded turn!

 

 

^^This FTW

post #40 of 99

TPJ,

I really like your post.  Blending skills properly for the situation will get no argument from me. 

 

Being able to slarve, stivot, jump & pivot have saved my ass more than a few times.

 

I guess I don't always think of carving as a totally edge locked turn.

 

To me Svindal was carving most of his turns in that video, which showed both short & long turns.  So again, my interpretation on carving may be different.  Maybe I need to change my own perspective.

 

One thing I would clarify is that a well performed pivot-slip does not involve any real direction change, except the direction the skis point.

 

The other thing is that (again from my perspective) skidding is out of control, whereas a drift or most of the other tactics you described take a high level of skill & are controlled.

 

 

JASP,

Not sure I follow your idea that "carving is a mis-nomer in powder", but you are much more technique minded than I am.  Again maybe I need to change my perspective.

 

 

To be clear, I do not believe that carving is everything, but as Svindal shows us it is a technique that is easily adapted to most skiing situations.  I really doubt that he spends much time training outside the race arena, yet he shows that he would give many Big Mountain skiers a run for their money.

 

Thanks,

JF

 

post #41 of 99

If I may...There's no wrong way to eat a Reeses'...

post #42 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by FujativeOCR View Post

If I may...There's no wrong way to eat a Reeses'...


But there are only two ways to throw a hockey stop, right side and left side

 

Which reminds me, is that a turn?  You are not really changing directions, but your velocity in the direction you are heading changes dramatically.

post #43 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post




But there are only two ways to throw a hockey stop, right side and left side

 

Which reminds me, is that a turn?  You are not really changing directions, but your velocity in the direction you are heading changes dramatically.

 

I don't think so?  Glenn Plake and Scot Schmitt used to do them back and forth all day long straight down the fall line without ever really being displaced left to right thereby never actually turning.  In fact if this is so, then technically they invented slow-mo straight-lining!
 

post #44 of 99
Thread Starter 

Ok, i'm gonna show my ignorance here, but part of the demo's we had to give while taking our exams were a basic parallel and an advanced parallel turn. You failed in the basic parellel turn if you didn't show the ski brushing or if you carved. That's right, you failed if you were too advanced in your demo for the 'basic parallel turn'. It was amazing how many real good skiers struggled with this. This is what I mean by a skidded turn, a perfectly good turn which loses you speed and is technically correct. It's another option for the mountain.

post #45 of 99

I always thought that if you didn't impact the tree, then it was a good turn. 

post #46 of 99

So when the driver skidded into the wall out of control, was that good?

post #47 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post

So when the driver skidded into the wall out of control, was that good?


No!  But when said driver drifts the car around a corner, in close to the wall, and is gone like a shot; that is good.

 

The hitting the wall the time before was just a training thing.  Sort of like loosing your edge in a carved turn and laying it down on your hip.
 

post #48 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingaround View Post

Ok, i'm gonna show my ignorance here, but part of the demo's we had to give while taking our exams were a basic parallel and an advanced parallel turn. You failed in the basic parellel turn if you didn't show the ski brushing or if you carved. That's right, you failed if you were too advanced in your demo for the 'basic parallel turn'. It was amazing how many real good skiers struggled with this. This is what I mean by a skidded turn, a perfectly good turn which loses you speed and is technically correct. It's another option for the mountain.


Excellent posting. In the old days before the carving skis came along we only made so called parallel turns. And there was a right way and a wrong way. And nothing has changed regarding the "basic parallel turn". Its still supposed to be made in a sertain way. But there is no consensus regarding the terminology we use. IMO we should divide turning into two main groups: carved and non-carved turns. Carved turns are easy to define. They leave two knife sharp tracks in the snow behind. Or only one in some/most cases . That is the intention. If we are successfull then the tracks are clean. If we are not then they are not. When it comes to non-carved turns we run into problems with the terninology since the word "skid" seems to mean two different things: 1) a controlled skidded turn where the skis are not carving but as they are tracking in the snow the tails are displaced to the tips and 2) a turn that is out of controll where the skis are skidding sideways over the snow.

 

So this conversation will never take us anywhere. One group of people think the world is round, the other thinks its flat. Pritty hard to base a discussion on such basic missunderstanding.

 

The best thing to do is have a moderator tell us how we should have it.

post #49 of 99

Well. I just got back from a nice MTB ride with two PSIA Alpine Team members, they both said that they like to skid & that my interpretation is purely semantic.  Therefore, I will withdraw any negative connotation I may have expressed toward skidded tuns.  I do prefer to call it any number of other things though.

 

My first Ski School Director told me decades ago that we teach skidding because the feeling is somewhat out of control, but it is exciting & people like to be excited.

I do have to admit that when my wheels break loose on the MTB it feels pretty good, as long as I don't crash!

 

JF

post #50 of 99

What category of turns does the snowplow fall under?

post #51 of 99

In my early days, "Turning" was the act of steering the skis around, the action of slipping snow across the edges, and killing momentum was anathema to my speed loving temperament.  In the bumps this is desirable, and our local skier ironman quaker master carpenter had a style that exclusively skidded the skis around each way smoothly through huge bumps, day after day, year after year.

 

Well the instructors mocked his form, the "John Roth turn" was emulated by all who did not know that they should mock the style.

 

Funny thing with the then new "shape" skis, his turns naturally became more of a carved flow.  Conversing with him on the chair, he even confessed that he now "carves".  But the instructors always needing to keep their upper hand STILL mocked John for not making pure carves in the bumps.

 

Personally I took to carving like a duck to water, and soon found myself maching down the steeps and aggravating the same instructors for not finishing my turn.  After some soul searching, I realized that skidding the top part of the turn before carving the bottom half smoothly controls the precious mo, yet preserves speed and flow.  This key opened mogul terrain to me that mystified me before.

 

Now I agree, there is nothing wrong with a "skidded" turn.

post #52 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingaround View Post

Ok, i'm gonna show my ignorance here, but part of the demo's we had to give while taking our exams were a basic parallel and an advanced parallel turn. You failed in the basic parellel turn if you didn't show the ski brushing or if you carved. That's right, you failed if you were too advanced in your demo for the 'basic parallel turn'. It was amazing how many real good skiers struggled with this. This is what I mean by a skidded turn, a perfectly good turn which loses you speed and is technically correct. It's another option for the mountain.


No offence...but yup, you did.

 

Clearly these "real good skiers" where not very good at all.  Edge control is a skill.  Applying edge should be like a dial...the skier should be able to turn it up alot, a little, or anything inbetween, these should be able to apply edge quick, slow or again inbetween.  Skiers who only have edging at a "on/off" level are pretty unrefined and limited in their abilities.
 

post #53 of 99

4ster, My point was that the a powder carve is a contradiction in terms and close to impossible since the snow shears away so easily underneath the ski. Even the weight of the ski can be enough for a ski to sink through the snow surface. Add a skier and it should be obvious that the tip and tail will not follow the same path. So even though you feel like the skis are tracking there is vertical and lateral displacement occuring. The best we can hope to do is make a turn very similar to the blended turn we see in the training video.

 

FujativeOCR, opposed edge usage alway involves edge slippage. Even in edge locked wedges one of the skis skids.

 

TDK, Carved turns were being done long before shaped skis came along...  

post #54 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post




No offence...but yup, you did.

 

Clearly these "real good skiers" where not very good at all.  Edge control is a skill.  Applying edge should be like a dial...the skier should be able to turn it up alot, a little, or anything inbetween, these should be able to apply edge quick, slow or again inbetween.  Skiers who only have edging at a "on/off" level are pretty unrefined and limited in their abilities.
 


I agree with Skidude here, "edge control" is a skill and it encompasses the whole spectrum of edge angles from high edge to flat and being able to modulate this skill with rotary control and pressure control to shape any variety of turn shapes.  The task of a "basic parallel" turns requires the candidate to demonstrate the ability to change the skill blend to meet the task.  One of my favorite task to indicate the level of ownership a skier has of these skills is to begin a run skiing pivot slips and progressively change the skill blending until we end the run carving arc to arc turns.  Having difficulty with this task will highlight areas that need development.  If one can not perform this task smoothly I would refrain from calling this skier a "real good skier".

post #55 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post




I agree with Skidude here, "edge control" is a skill and it encompasses the whole spectrum of edge angles from high edge to flat and being able to modulate this skill with rotary control and pressure control to shape any variety of turn shapes

That;s what I refer to as "feathering".. different levels of carving vs smearing anywhere I choose to either to check a little speed or skittle an odd shaped line around a couple trees or some kid in front of me changing directions unexpectedly as I'm approaching to pass.
 

post #56 of 99
Thread Starter 

Skidude, i think i didn't make myself clear, By others finding this difficult, what I should have said is, some very good skiers had trouble making this demo visible for a learner ski to visibly see. Surely you must remember those days when your demo's had to be perfect and had to be seen by a learner. I bet if you got took a bunch of epicski guys and told them to visibly demonstrate for the class a basic parallel a lot would get it wrong. They would turn fine and turn parallel, but they would still get it wrong.

post #57 of 99



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingaround View Post

Skidude, i think i didn't make myself clear, By others finding this difficult, what I should have said is, some very good skiers had trouble making this demo visible for a learner ski to visibly see. Surely you must remember those days when your demo's had to be perfect and had to be seen by a learner. I bet if you got took a bunch of epicski guys and told them to visibly demonstrate for the class a basic parallel a lot would get it wrong. They would turn fine and turn parallel, but they would still get it wrong.


I understood perfectley.   A basic parallel turn is just that...basic.  If you cant do it, you are not a good skier.  Sorry.

 

And for clarity, any suggestion that you "can be doing it right" but it just doenst "look it to a student" is bunk.  If you are doing it right, it shows.  No David Copperfield skills involved.

 

I remember having this discussion relativley recently...(within the last year or two).  This young guy who considered himself to be a great skier, and to be fair, most people in the general public would..becasue he could ski off piste with a fair degree of speed....failed his skiing exam.  Very upset he went on a rampage about how the CSIA was a joke, and that great skiers like WC racers and Big Mountain ski movies stars didnt go around skidding, or deliberatley "de-tuning" their skiing.  He was right.  But what he failed to appreciate, is that although they dont deliberatltey "de-tune"...they could if I asked them to.  This guy couldnt.  Big difference.  And that is why this guy at least could never progress from big mountain wannabe to true ski hero.  Lack of skills.

 

Trust me, I have skied with WC racers and one or two ski movie types....and here is a secret that most people dont want to accept.  These guys are AWESOME skiers.  They can dial it up, dial it down and everything in between with ease and precision.  Those who cant...still have a long way to go to be considered great...or even good.


 

post #58 of 99

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Carving in powder is a mis-nomer. The skis displace the snow underfoot, so the tip and tail really can't pass over the same spot. At best we're talking about a less steered turn where the skis plane through the snow and the snow compacting under that pressure gives us a soft but variable platform. 

 

I'm be on board with this idea also.  I tend to think of "carving" in powder (or very soft snow) as being more "linear planing" than carving.  Also, in soft snow most of the turning force is provided by the overall base of bent skis against the snow rather than primarily the edge of the ski (as on hard snow).  While JASP's point might seem a bit analytical, I think it's essential for instructors to comprehend this idea since properly envisioning how skis actually operate on (or in) the snow helps us visualize the movements required for best performance.  If we don't know exactly what we're trying to get our skis to do, we're left with trial & error while hoping to stumble on a way to get things working for us.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingaround View Post

Ok, i'm gonna show my ignorance here, but part of the demo's we had to give while taking our exams were a basic parallel and an advanced parallel turn. You failed in the basic parellel turn if you didn't show the ski brushing or if you carved. That's right, you failed if you were too advanced in your demo for the 'basic parallel turn'. It was amazing how many real good skiers struggled with this.


My thinking is similar (though not quite the same) as that posted by others above.  Exam Candidates need to remember that these Exams are primarily Teaching-Centric Exams and that the Skiing Modules are simply a verification that candidates know exactly how to execute the movement patterns they're expected to teach students at the level being tested. They are never a test of your Goodness or Badness at skiing.

 

If an instructor takes Wedge-Christie students out to learn "Open Parallel" (the next logical step) then they need to demonstrate true Open Parallel technique - not Dynamic Parallel (which requires a higher level of skill to accomplish).  "Carving" is essentially Dynamic Parallel at its cleanest and most efficient, hardly something we'd be teaching to students who are just learning to ski with their skis parallel.  Exams are a test of our ability to show we can perform exactly the movements specified in the task's description.  Exams are not a test of our highest skiing ability nor of our athleticism.  Show exactly the patterns requested and we pass.  Show anything else - and we're sent back for more training.

 

.ma

post #59 of 99
Thread Starter 

i get what  you're saying skidude, and you are right. It's just like you said, there are some people who really think they're good but they really but when you get down to true all mountain skiing, they're actually rather crap. I remember the park boys during exam week who spent their free time pulling tricks. One broke his collarbone while the others still in one piece to ski had the biggest failure rate.

post #60 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

TDK, Carved turns were being done long before shaped skis came along...  



Yes it is true. Although it was not very common. We used to have a turn called "100% sliced" or something like that in our manual. It was something you had to be able to do when taking your exam but since the trun radius was almost infinite, lets say 70m or someting like that. it was not very useful for skiing back then and never thaught to students in ski school. In race coaching it was normal procedure to turn that way on flat parts of DH, SG and GS courses or when blasting for fun along flats in the Alps. But thats annother story. The basic parallel turn was still the turn everybody used. And it was the end of the line even for experts. And experts had no problems morphing their skiing into carving. And expert skiers today can both carve and skid (brush/steer etc.).


Edited by tdk6 - 10/21/10 at 7:32am
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