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READ THIS (about "Let's get some proof going")

post #1 of 33
Thread Starter 
I received the following e-mail today:

Members of your forum are hassling me on my cell phone and attempting to tamper with my computer, which is a federal offense.

I demand that you remove the post titled, "Lets get some proof going" and remove my name from your database. If not, I'll hold you personally responsible for anything that happens to me. Furthermore, be advised that members of your forum are posting copyright protected material - see the post "Manos-the hands of fate". You could be held responsible here as well.

Finally, I would inform the members of your forum that you've received a formal complaint from me and that they are breaking the law - that I intend to see that all guilty parties are fully prosecuted.

Please contact me...

I spoke with the person and he has some very legitmate concerns. He also has a pretty good idea who is behind it.

So, the person responsible MUST stop.

Furthermore, this is a forum about skiing. Skiing is supposed to be fun. People can get way too uptight about things. Let's all put the fun of making turns back into our heads every time we read or respond to a post in this forum. Okay?
post #2 of 33
Thanks for the update AC
The civil posts were somewhat helpful so I am saddened by what had to happen. too bad.
post #3 of 33
SAD and RIDICULOUS. But mostly sad. Sorry, AC, you "get" to deal with this garbage. Too many pollutants in the atmosphere. The PROOF thread had a chance, I thought, of maybe going somewhere interesting.
post #4 of 33

Good call and you did the right thing. I was enjoying that particular thread and was hoping that we would get a report on the ski off. However, when I saw someone post their cell phone number on the internet I cringed.


A friendly word from your pal who represents most of the worlds best lunatics.



ps. (previuos post deleted)
I just got done rereading "Paul" preposterous letter to AC. In my previous post I offered help to the fool for his cell phone problem. The offer still goes if he is man enough to admit that posting your cell phone number on a world wide board is a dumb ass thing to do.

Don't blame others for the problems that you wrought.
<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Powdigger (edited March 27, 2001).]</FONT>
post #5 of 33
AC, though I didn't take part in that thread, I read it and wondered where it was going..

As a photographer to whom it happened all too often, I agree that you pulled copyrighted pictures from Harb's book if they were posted without the copyright owner (the photographer?) giving his/her permission.

That someone would hassle a person by phone is a surprise, Paul said nothing that would deserve that. He wanted to prove that he was not bragging about his skiing prowess and I wish he had been able to prove it by skiing with Jonathan or Bob Barnes or someone.

Oh well..... .....Ott
post #6 of 33
Powdigger is right - I felt the same when I saw cell number plastered over the Internet... Big invitation for trouble - although I'd doubt that registered members of the forum would do such a thing (we're used to slug it out in writing ) - but forum content is accessible to anybody in the world...

Although I still maintain that ski off was completely meaningless in offered context (to "prove" something about "system") regardless of actual ski prowess demonstrated - I'm curious - Is there "standard" ski-off procedure?

I mean how the "challenge" ski-off could look like? Make some turns and get an opinion about each other? Or get into scariest terrain there is and see who survives? Or do a race run for speed?

Do you guys have a ritual for a ski "duels" at expert levels?

I'd love to hear related stories from veterans....

Thanks!<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by AlexS (edited March 27, 2001).]</FONT>
post #7 of 33
A run down any zipper line on Mary Jane should do it.
post #8 of 33
I believe it has to do with this part of the email AC received:

>>I demand that you remove the post titled, "Lets get some proof going" and remove my name from your database. If not, I'll hold you personally responsible for anything that happens to me<<

I agree with ryan, this is sad and ridiculous. Though Paul was taking a beating with the posts he was hanging in there. It could have gone somewhere interesting.
I never looked at his skiing with Bob/whomever as a "ski off" just an op to show what he could do. This could have furthered discussion. It's highly unfortunate that someone who is new to posting here would receive this treatment.

I suppose the reason the thread has to be pulled is he used his real name ? and gave much info on where he skied etc. true?

I find his threats about the copyrighting sad and unfortunate. Unfortunately some will always resort to lawyers/threats.
post #9 of 33
Guys, I can't stop wondering what exactly do you find "interesting" in Paul's claim?

Is it so unlikely that athletically inclined, dedicated 39-yr old can "become an expert skier" in skiing time equivalent to 5-7 years of regular recreational skier time - while taking lessons from qualified coach/instructor? - Regardless from ski instruction "technique" used...

If I'm not mistaken in similar time frame Pierre eh! not only became an expert skier himself but also got a highest certification as an instructor!

Or, is it practically impossible to ski at expert level after 102 days on the mountain?

Or, possible - but not from HH?

So, what are your expectations for an athletic skier with 102 days of skiing?


<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by AlexS (edited March 27, 2001).]</FONT>
post #10 of 33

I don't think at all that its unlikely that a skier was skiing at a high level after 100+ closely spaced days on the mountain. I think regardless of 'system' or even without any 'system' an athletic person could indeed become a strong skier in this time.

Where his language got away from him is in basically suggesting that he would outski or ski even at the same level as people with 20x the ski days as him . . . simply because he happened to have learned under the HH system. This was his only fallacy, as far as claiming to have become quite a strong skier in 100+ days - I don't doubt it and I applaud the dedication!
post #11 of 33
Well, this probably needs to be moved over to Pierr eh! thread about Paul's offer - but, anyway -

Pierre eh! - This was an interesting post, seems to be far more moderated view on HH system that I used to see here... Thanks!

Gravity - Thanks for confirming that the result apparently suited the effort - school or no school! IMO the greatest fallacy was the premise that by showing that after 100+ days of ski training he become an expert skier he actually proves something about school... It was Pierr eh! who said here - "we do our best to teach but it's your job to learn..." (Sorry if I paraphrased it...) So as IHTS noticed Paul's success may have a lot more to do with him than with the system.

But overall it would seem that despite of formally acknowledging HH qualities as a teacher and admirable effort on Paul's part many were indeed surprised/incredulous that Paul did "become an expert skier" as HH promised I was not...
post #12 of 33
What a wienie! Does he say "Hey, AC, I've got a problem, can you help me?". No! He threatens legal action as the first step. What did AC do to him? AC wasn't the dumbass who put this guy's phone number up! What was AC supposed to do, put up a warning about protecting your privacy? If any of you guys ski with him and it turns out that he's not as good as he says he is, I wonder if Harb is going to get an e-mail threatening legal action. Or maybe he already has, if he realized he had been duped into buying new equipment from PMTS sponsors!
post #13 of 33
Glad to see you're posting again. I was just reading a thread(forget name) where you bailed but I didn't quite understand why. I didn't think your questions/discussions were at all unreasonable.

>>Is it so unlikely that athletically inclined, dedicated 39-yr old can "become an expert skier" in skiing time equivalent to 5-7 years of regular recreational skier time - while taking lessons from qualified coach/instructor? - Regardless from ski instruction "technique" used...<<

No, not at all given the obsessive level of commitment Paul put in. (Which is highly commendable by the way). I believe that was the gist of the thread, that with that amount of time/commitment almost any "system" should get good results.
Add to that Harald's alignment from the very start and the chances of success are quite good. Plus, Harald is one of the top instructors in the country and Paul seemed to work directly with him. For how long was never clear but it seemed significant. At least a week? Plus more? who knows.

The "interesting" part comes a couple of ways. It's always interesting to have someone's perceptions of their skiing observed by an outside party. Males particularly tend to exagerate their ability, but I'm not sure that was necessarily the case here.
It would be interesting to see such a "pure disciple" shall we say, of Harald's method.
It would be interesting to see Paul's reaction to some suggestion that (presumably Bob or Jonathan) would make about his skiing. Would he be at all amenable to "normal" instruction. Whatever in god's name that means.
It would be interesting to see what discussion followed from improvements Paul needed to make. This is just interesting in itself, not necess. that it's Paul and a "student" of the Harb "system". If he thinks he's perfect, well, that in itself would be interesting. I mean even the best of the best are working on something.

>Or, is it practically impossible to ski at expert level after 102 days on the mountain<
Depends on the def. of expert. I believe there's a huge thread here on that subject which I've only seen a little of the begining. Look there, that may answer the question. A common interpretation of the term, no that's not impossible. A true interpretation of the term, yes that's probably impossible. I mean 102 days is a lot but to get to that level you're talking 102 days/year for at least 3 years. On this I shall defer to others though.

post #14 of 33
couldn't agree more. Perhaps if he had asked his 12 year old son first..."Dad! Don't be such a @#$ this is the internet!..." Oh.
post #15 of 33
>>>Guys, I can't stop wondering what exactly do you find "interesting" in Paul's claim?<<<

I just wanted to find out on which side of the 95% line I would come down

Hey Paul, come baaaack, please.... ....Ott
post #16 of 33
Tog, as always, interesting, thought provoking post, full of good insights. I've recently wondered if someone could devise an experimental design which would involve two groups of new skiers, same age range, similar fitness level, equal male/female participation. One group would learn the "Harb" method, the other would be taught "PSIA" methodology. They would all ski the same amount of time within a given period. Then compare the results. I'm not sure what the outcome would be.
A few weeks ago at Sugarloaf, I was skiing with a friend who had recently become "high" on the Harb technique. Although she had never gone to any of his workshops, she read his books with religous fervor, and couldn't wait to try some of the techniques on the slopes.
A few things I noticed. First, the extremely narrow stance was inappropriate for someone of her pelvic width, giving her skiing a weeble like quality. Secondly, her balance was insufficient to allow her to perform that "lift and tip" move. As a result, I noticed a good deal of compensatory movement such as steering and skidding, probably as a means of trying to regain equilibrium. But aren't these the things that Harb says should not be done?
Although there are many interesting things about PMTS, one question has never been answered to my satiafaction: Why Lift?
I do understand the concept of one legged skiing as a balance exercise. But the lifting of the foot before tipping it seems superfluous, something that was put in to styleize the method, but not warranting any merit as effective functional skiing.

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #17 of 33
Wow, this is one for the books. I couldn't figure out whether I was being trolled, sold, lie to or just bragged at but I kind of enjoyed the thread. I sure hope it wasn't one of the regulars that was doing the harassing. Don't need this kind of thing. Just when it got interesting enough to jump into it disappeared. AC, couldn't the phone number and other pertinent information just have been deleted? Can this forum really be held responsible for some bonehead's stupid actions? Especially when nothing appeared to be that offensive? What say Ed, Gonz, Oboe or you other legal types? Paul, if you're out there I thought you were really spurring on some fun discussions. Several months ago I started a thread called "What's the harp on Harb" but I wasn't nearly as brusk so I didn't get things as stirred up. Wish this wouldn't have happened. This is not good for any of us.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by BobT (edited March 27, 2001).]</FONT>
post #18 of 33
Thread Starter 
It was not the legal threat I reacted to (that was unnecessary). I would help anyone to the full extent of my ability in the circumstance that was described here. Part of that was complying with the wishes of the person about removing a thread they started (which is actually something any poster is capable of doing on his/her own).

As for the copyright issue, every single member here has explicitly agreed (by actively clicking on a button that says "I agree") to the following statement when they registered: "You agree not to post any copyrighted material."<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by AC (edited March 27, 2001).]</FONT>
post #19 of 33
1. A claim (from a 39 year old) that they are better than 95% of the people in the sport after only 100 days is complete BS and i'm sure (hope) anyone in the top 10% knows it - why even ponder the credibility of the statement??

2. A person willing to throw out this challenge and then dumb enough to actually give out his phone number in the face of obvious adversity just reinforces that his thought process is slightly askew, hence - why even ponder the credibility of his statements??

3. After receiving unwanted phone calls, rather than accept the responsibility for his mistake, this person defers the blame towards someone who has only encouraged, through this forum, one of our constitutional rights of free speech. His choosing to threaten legal action against AC should be even more of a clue to most of you what kind of a person we're dealing with here - and yet you still ponder the credibility of his statements??

I am no psychologist but I don't think it would be stretching it to say that the validity of a suggested isolated case study between PTMS and PSIA might be jepordized by the fact that the test subject is most probably WACKO!
post #20 of 33
a weeble like quality
At least she didn't fall down! Actually the likely problem is that she was not properly aligned.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by milesb (edited March 28, 2001).]</FONT>
post #21 of 33
I usually let others voice opinions on these kind of things, but this seems a bit more serious. First, I came to this forum because no other online place existed for spirited, informed conversation about the technical aspects of skiing and the toys that go with it. Over the past year, however, I notice that the discourse has become littered with expletives, attacks on persons, unsympathetic mocking of tragic events (e.g. Igneous, Bill Johnson), or becomes a way for people to promote their agendas, ski brand or other. Second, we place this forum at risk by posting libelous remarks about a person or organization. Sure, this is America, and everyone is free to express their opinion. But we are also responsible for these expressions and their consequences. I for one would not appreciate one of those consequences being the end of Epicski because AC did not want the hassle or risk of babysitting risky behavior.

Last, society has lost so much civility that it doesn't surprise me that this little slice of it has people with poor form and bad manners. My message to them is please grow up or get out. I want and in some ways need this Epicski thing to work so I can ski better, find new toys, and enjoy the conversation among insightful, like minded people who respect one another. So to the small minority that makes this particular post necessary, please leave. To the rest of us, keep talking. And to AC, thanks. I hope you have a day job that rewards your web skills and professionalism.
post #22 of 33
Very well put. no additions from this camp.
post #23 of 33
I second the motion.
post #24 of 33


post #25 of 33
Milesb: Actually, she did fall, quite alot.
post #26 of 33
Lisamarie -

>>her balance was insufficient to allow her to perform that "lift and tip" move

You explained it very well yourself...

Nothing that alignment and exercises cannot fix... One-legged dynamic balance is a key there - without achieving it one simply cannot start doing anything meaningful in PMTS...

As far as lift - my feeling is that it serves at least two purposes :

a) since inside ski is being put at a slight divergent angle into the turn relative to the stance ski this allows not to "cross tails"

b)it allows to stabilize the inside ski by allowing only necessary amount of contact with snow (it is pretty powerfull steering mechanism, you don't need more than a tip's edge to steer into turn). The back of the stance (outside) ski boot provides inside ski stabilization support and a non-muscular lever to provide steering input to a stance ski.

This is how it "feels" to me - I can check with "the book" if there's an "official" explanation...
post #27 of 33
All useful thoughts, and I'd like to emphasize a few more: When someone posts a pathetically juvenile, puerile, or just plain rude and insulting remark, we have these choices: 1) Ignore it and continue as if it never were posted. 2) Engage the rascal in an exchange about the horrible nature of the offending post, thereby giving it some recognition, just as the poster desired, and encouraging more of the same. 3) If it really is polluting the site, refer it to AC by private e-mail and request that he consider deleting it.
post #28 of 33
Good advice, Oboe, which I probably should have listened to when you first offered it.
What's interesting about this whole ***** thing, is that this was probably the first Harold Harb thread that did not turn into a major flame war, even though the guy was setting himself up for one. For the most part it was pretty civil.

However, on the following morning, there was a post from one of the "younger set", that was a bit threatening, a sort of "yeah, meet me in the park" kind of post.
The rest is history.

When I used to lurk on Epic, I always found good content, but it was hard to sift through all the insults and nonsense posts. I would have never felt comfortable posting anything. Then, the format changed, and with the Technique and Instruction board, we had some of the best technical information on the internet, as well as some of the most wonderful people anywhere.
But that's changed.
For some reason, the idea of someone learning to ski after age 30 is a source of great humor to those who think they are superior simply by virtue of being born in the 1980s. If anyone knew a thing about motor learning, they'd realize that teenagers are at the optimal stages of their life to learn or improve athletic skills, but after age 30, this ability begins to decline. But those of us who decided to brave the effort are ridiculed, as if we should just move to Florida to play Mah Jong and watch Lawrence Welk.
So its kind of sad that when someone posts a thread asking about intermediate trails at a particular resort, it becomes a source for ridicule and insult. Out of 20 replies, only 2 of them were answers to my question. I happened to check the board last night, and there were 2 replies that were so disgusting that I had to delete the whole thread.
Yes, I admit I fueled the flames. I guess recent family events make me not as okay as I think I am,for even in my N.Y.C. Italian neighborhood teenage years, I have never made comments such as the ones I posted. As someone commented, "You had to push her pretty hard to get her to say something like that". For those of you who had to read such trash from ME, please accept my apologies.

There has been much talk lately about why Americans don't have a competitive edge in skiing. And some interesting discussions about our lack of a "culture of learning".
But someone showing respect, gratitude and admiration for a particular instructor gets accused of "having an affair" with them. And people who ask intelligent questions about technique are a source of humor.
Gee, I wonder if there's a connection.

Thanks for all you've given me. <FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Lisamarie (edited March 29, 2001).]</FONT>
post #29 of 33

I think you just have to accept - and ignore - that a lot of (y)our "non-expert skill" posts WILL elicit some razzing once in awhile. And Oboe's advice to disregard is the path to follow, I think. Some of the forum here ARE young and, I sincerely believe, sometimes uncomfortable about introducing themselves to the forum and so resort to juvenile behavior. Many of them, though, once they begin to see that the Bear group, by and large, IS quite tolerant, settle into more pertinent posts. And, frankly, some of 'em just make me smile. There IS some wit out there; as there will always be the elements we'd just as soon jettison, were we the rulers of the kingdom.
There are times I view a post that is so brainless I WISH no one would respond to it and instead just let it sit there in the bunker unaddressed. This is asking a lot, though, as there seems to always be at least ONE person always eager for a nasty volley. That's worth the laugh sometimes, too. Once in awhile, anyway.
post #30 of 33
Lisa, you should always have a Manhatten before posting an answer to a juvenile

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