Slightly rockered skis - older models?

Dynastars website says the Sultan 85 is rockered is it wrong?

http://www.dynastar.com/US/US/legend-sultan-85_DA0KA03_product_dynastar-skis-men.html

The Salomon Lord and Lady (both skis are identical) have been reported as having a slight rocker but I am not certain of this. The Lord did seem rather squirrely when I tried them on groomers a couple years ago.

This comes back to the question of "what is rocker"? Is it the lack of (or reverse) camber underfoot, or the tip/tail rise of a ski, or both?

On the "Features" section of that page you point to above there are length/height specs given for "Tip Rocker" and "Tail Rocker". From some measurements I did recently on a few different older skis it seems "traditional" tip rise (tip rocker, if you prefer) is approximately 140mm/50mm. So based on that the 2011 Sultan 85 does technically have an early rise tip since it's listed as 180mm/58mm. Remember, 2.54cm=25.4mm=1inch. 40mm is about 1.5". Not much, really.

The "Tail Rocker" of the Sultan 85 is given as 95mm/28mm, which I believe is in line with what traditionally might be called a "partial twin tip", as a full "traditional" twin tip tail would be the same as the tip, 140mm/50mm.

This looks like another case where marketing is just shoehorning the "rocker" label in anywhere they can. However, at least the Dynastar site is giving those tip/tail rise specs for the ski, which is helpful. The other missing specs that would be nice to have at a glance would be "camber underfoot" and "running length".

Ultimately as SJ pointed out elsewhere all that really matters is how a ski works for *you*, but I think just as with ski length and tip-waist-tail measurements having the other specs listed wouldn't be a bad thing now that everyone's talking "rocker".

Pocket Rockets, Nordica Beast 92, K2 PE, Scott P4, Volkl Sanook,  all had some sort of early rise / proto - rocker.

:looks at PE's across the room on wall:

:sees no early rise:

Quote:

Originally Posted by FujativeOCR 

:looks at PE's across the room on wall:

 

:sees no early rise:

 

people argue that the extremely long tip on the PE was actually early rise. its not, but it did help to make a great 85mm powder skis if you bought it long enough.

Its not really visible just by looking at them. Put the ski base down on a work bench. Pin the breaks up and set a object on the mid pint of the ski. Then slide an index card under the tips. You will see how far back the tips go before the card touches.  Then decide what you want to call it.

http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/53656/all-mountain-twin-tip-shootout-pe-vs-karma

Quote:

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA 

people argue that the extremely long tip on the PE was actually early rise. its not, but it did help to make a great 85mm powder skis if you bought it long enough.

I bought the longest version available (179) and it sinks like a rock.  They come all the way up to my mouth.

As far as the other argument about the "rockered tip"...K2's were always built like that back then, they didn't have a name for it, and I don't think it was intentional.  That's just how they bent them.  If you set it next to a TroubleMaker or something yeah it appears so, but the tip is also way taller.  I think the overall bend is about the same.

Plus in that link, it looks like that ruler touches the PE about 1 1/2 inches behind where the ski actually starts to bend up.  I can admit though, it does have a more gradual rise than the 4frnt Madonnas they are next to at the moment...so I guess to a very little degree you COULD call it rocker?  I dunno.  I still don't think that was the intent of the design, it just ended up that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FujativeOCR 

I bought the longest version available (179) and it sinks like a rock.  They come all the way up to my mouth.

 

As far as the other argument about the "rockered tip"...K2's were always built like that back then, they didn't have a name for it, and I don't think it was intentional.  That's just how they bent them.  If you set it next to a TroubleMaker or something yeah it appears so, but the tip is also way taller.  I think the overall bend is about the same.

well your much taller than me it could be due to the mountain point as well. I always though the Pe was one of the better sub 90mm ski in powder I have been on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philpug 

How far back do you want to go?

Barrel staves were rockered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FujativeOCR 

I bought the longest version available (179) and it sinks like a rock.  They come all the way up to my mouth.

 

As far as the other argument about the "rockered tip"...K2's were always built like that back then, they didn't have a name for it, and I don't think it was intentional.  That's just how they bent them.  If you set it next to a TroubleMaker or something yeah it appears so, but the tip is also way taller.  I think the overall bend is about the same.

I sold my PEs last year becuase I wanted soething more hard snow oriented in that quiver slot. But they worked as well in pow as some other 100mm under foot options.

The skis were never marketed as being special beucase of the longer tip, but as you can see from that thread people were aware of the positive effect of this tip geometry on the skis soft snow performance over 3 years ago. 

I never argued the PE has what we today would call a rockered tip, rather that it has elements of early rise / proto-rocker design. Short running length with early rising tips. Its almost exactly the same as the Sultan 85 tip configuration. And that is what the OP asked for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tromano 

I never argued the PE has what we today would call a rockered tip, rather that it has elements of early rise / proto-rocker design. Short running length with early rising tips. That is what the OP asked for.

Gauers    

(I _am_ surprised we haven't had more ballet/dance ski answers)

Reagrding the PE's sinking like a rock in powder, I only was disappointed in the 179 cm PE's I have once and that was on a trip to Alta in waist deep and I definitely wasn't feeling the float. Other than that  and the topskin graphics, I've never been disappointed with them . I've skied them in a good #  of 6-8 in. powder days out in Colorado and they skied great.  I think they are fun in the bumps, decent in the cut up , and OK on the groomed. Really a good versatile ski and I think I paid $200 for them.

Great price value and probably a more skillful skier could ski them in really deep snow without issue. I'm thinking I need to go bigger and get some rockers this season, but have a lawyer I have to pay first! Still intrigued by the guy I skied with at Alta on his Pontoons just skiing slow and effortlessly in the deep that day. I think not being able to sink the tips is huge in deep snow for most of us mortals.

I mounted my original PE's at +2 from Traditional and the current ones at +5.  Fujatives I had at +4 and those were always way better in Powder than the PE's were.  Probably because they were so much softer.  They were the same dimensions as the PE too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roundturns 

Reagrding the PE's sinking like a rock in powder, I only was disappointed in the 179 cm PE's I have once and that was on a trip to Alta in waist deep and I definitely wasn't feeling the float. Other than that  and the topskin graphics, I've never been disappointed with them . I've skied them in a good #  of 6-8 in. powder days out in Colorado and they skied great.  I think they are fun in the bumps, decent in the cut up , and OK on the groomed. Really a good versatile ski and I think I paid $200 for them.

 

Great price value and probably a more skillful skier could ski them in really deep snow without issue. I'm thinking I need to go bigger and get some rockers this season, but have a lawyer I have to pay first! Still intrigued by the guy I skied with at Alta on his Pontoons just skiing slow and effortlessly in the deep that day. I think not being able to sink the tips is huge in deep snow for most of us mortals.

see I have skied mine it bottomless powder and have done fine, you just got to go faster:) they were never my first choice with the quiver I got but they were fun and let me snorkle.
 

I remember a day in Monarch, CO on my first pair...the 113/80/100? ones.  Something like 30 inches that day and they sank through all of it.  The 85mm ones are better in pow but not by much.  Fujatives still ruled them both.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanjm 
  So I guess it really is a choice of either buying the new tech, or picking up something older and waiting till the prices come down.

There is a third option, buy a ski with a metal layer or two, go ski bumps hard for a couple of days... custom rocker.

The Salomon Lord is 87 mm wide and it has rocker.  I don't know if it's too much rocker for what you're looking for though.

I'm a big fan of the Lord, personally. Just bought a pair not too long ago. $429. This should fit the bill. Too bad I'm not seeing the prices in the $2-300's like I did this summer on ebay.

http://shop.aspeneast.com/browse.cfm/4,2935.html?AFF=ggl

I <3 Summer pricing on skis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FujativeOCR 

I <3 Summer pricing on skis.

Some of that summer pricing is still available at evo.com -- they have a 30%-off sale on already discounted prices in their outlet section until Wednesday. Solomon Lords for $315, K2 Extremes for well under $300. Unfortunately, their extra 30%-off sale doesn't include 2010 Rossi, Dynastar and a couple other brands (click the "details" link for specifics), but this sale definitely offers some great prices. Almost wish I needed some more skis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TallSkinnyGuy 

Some of that summer pricing is still available at evo.com -- they have a 30%-off sale on already discounted prices in their outlet section until Wednesday. Solomon Lords for $315, K2 Extremes for well under $300. Unfortunately, their extra 30%-off sale doesn't include 2010 Rossi, Dynastar and a couple other brands (click the "details" link for specifics), but this sale definitely offers some great prices. Almost wish I needed some more skis.

I already bought 2 pair this summer.  I suppose I could come up with something on there I need though...