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skiing technique

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
Took a picture of a friend skiing and would like to here any ski tips that would help him improve.

His ski tracks.
post #2 of 26
hmmmm.... looks good for the most part, only thing I can see that is obvious (and even this is hard to see from one pic because it may be better most of the time or it may be worse most of the time) is he appears to be hunching his back over a little. Straightening up the spine can make things work a little easier, especially when he gets pitched by a bump and has to correct for it. That was a fault of mine for a while that I am still working on so it's the first one I see from others (besides the OBVIOUS stuff like stems and dragging poles and back seat skiing).
post #3 of 26
Way too much inside ski lead. If he were to start a left turn, he'd have to come a great amount forward from being too far into the back seat in relation to the right ski.
post #4 of 26
Nice tracks. What I see that needs improvement is the inside half. He needs to strengthen the inside half, meaning he need to get longer from the inside hip and shoulder to the outside foot. Letting the inside hip move up and forward will allow the inside foot to move back and more underneath his hip. This allows creation of the angles with the lower body as opposed to the whole body. Inclination of the body is what I see, lower body upper body separation, creating edge angles with the lower body will help him.

Without skis, have him stand with his hands over the front of his hips, then take slow, robotic, 6" steps, feeling the movement in the hips as one (inside hip) moves up and forward. Then take it out on the snow with skis on.

Then play with tipping movements that isolate the movements to the lower body, such as simple go and stop sideslips, forward slips to a hard edge traverse ect.

Then combine the tipping movements with the hip movements and see if things get better or rather, stronger.

Toes, knees, hips, and shoulders should be close to the same angle. Then we can fold forward at the waist when we need or want to and not draw the inside hip back. Folding forward directly in line with our skis will push our inside hip back everytime.
post #5 of 26
Ric B,

Could you run that by me again please??????? : ----Wigs
post #6 of 26
I side with Kneale on this one, but Ric B's comments are more detailed and similar in intent.
post #7 of 26
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the input. I'll send him the inside track footback.
post #8 of 26
Wigs I know from your posts that you know what a strong inside half is. This is just one I use as a way of helping someone feel the positive hip moves needed and help them get there. Did you try it? The hands over the hips allows us to feel what the hips need to do as result of good positive movement patterns in skiing. Inside hip to low and back just about garantees that we are inclining and the inside foot moves too far forward.

Toes, knees, hips, and shoulders, lined up front to back as seen from the top perspective and in relation to the slope as seen from a front or back perspective.

The skier we see here has their inside hip and shoulder lowrer than their outside hip and shoulder. If the inside hip is lower and not forward this translates into a weak inside half which equals inclination as opposed to angulation or opposing angles between the upper and lower body, and as Kneill said forcing him to hoist up and onto the new outside ski in every turn.

If you do have good complimentary angles of the feet, knees, hips and shoulders, and you simply fold or bend forward towards the tips of your ski it will pull your inside hip back. On the other hand if we fold or bend forward perpendicular to the angle we are creating, the inside hip isn't pulled back. Easier to demonstrate and feel than to explain on the web.

Low inside hip and shoulder and no separation of lower and upper body, and no simple countering "developing" are what jumped out at me looking at the still of this skier.

As I see it more control goes on at the hip than any other joint in the body. The most powerfull joint in our body, and the only true ball and socket joint. If we don't understand what it's funtion and role are in skiing then we never will get to those good angles. Well we might get lucky. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #9 of 26
Thread Starter 
These photos look like the races are leading their inside ski. It must be the angle of the picture. However,it looks like their inside hip is square and forward.





[ February 07, 2004, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: slider ]
post #10 of 26
In the original post of your friend, is he trying to imitate a racer? If so his hands are not driving down the hill.
post #11 of 26
Thread Starter 
Apparently he has alot to work on. But if skiing was easy they'd call it snowboarding.
post #12 of 26
RicB,

When I asked you to “Could you please run that by me again” in the post, I was having a hard time trying to figure out what you were suggesting that this skier do to improve from what information we could gather from a moment in time, a pic. I agree with you on some points. He does need a stronger inner half. There is excessive tip lead which is causing the skier to show counter and a blocking of movement. Even though from what I see, the skier has a high edge angle on both skis, this is achieved by banking. IMHO, this skier has most of his weight on the inside ski, and with the tip lead being what it is, that it would be much more difficult to tip the inside ski over and also be very difficult to match edge angles on both skis if there is too much tip lead. But again, we see that this can be achieved by excessive banking, and IMHO, this is not a good thing. With too much tip lead, and the lack of long leg short leg going on, the inside ski is just too flat on the snow, and it’s very hard to turn over. I don’t see enough long leg short leg to the degree needed for this skier. As we see in the outstanding racer photos later in the post, there is tip lead but massive long leg short leg, giving the impression of a lot more tip lead than there really is.

As you suggested, buy pulling the inside ski back, this skier would be squarer to the skis. There also would be more dynamic movement through the turn and less of a “park & ride” static stance that is shown in this photo at this particular place in time.
post #13 of 26
"park and ride" is an excellent description of skiing without movement. I will use it!
post #14 of 26
I think moving the inside ski back, by bending the inside ankle would be a good thing. That would also bring the hips more forward into a powerful position. In the racer shots the differences in the bend of their inside ankles (pressure on the boot front) and that of your friend are enormous. Also their pressure forward, compared to your friend is also huge. The racers have plenty of lead, because they're tipped in further/goin faster, and that ski has no where to go but forward. Yet I would venture to guess that with their pressure on the boot fronts, they're doing a lot to keep in from going to far forward.

I don't know if he should angulate or incline yet, because I'm not so sure where he is in the turn and when he's planning his next one.

Yes, his inside half of the body can be stronger and that would be accomplished by the flexion of the inside ankle.

Interesting exercise, Ric B. Thanks.
post #15 of 26
Sorry about the broken post, but it cut me off right when I was posting it. Here's, the whole thing, I hope. :

RicB,

When I asked you to “Could you please run that by me again” in the post, I was having a hard time trying to figure out what you were suggesting that this skier do to improve from what information we could gather from a moment in time, a pic. I agree with you on some points. He does need a stronger inner half. There is excessive tip lead which is causing the skier to show counter and a blocking of movement. Even though from what I see, the skier has a high edge angle on both skis, this is achieved by banking. IMHO, this skier has most of his weight on the inside ski, and with the tip lead being what it is, that it would be much more difficult to tip the inside ski over and also be very difficult to match edge angles on both skis if there is too much tip lead. But again, we see that this can be achieved by excessive banking, and IMHO, this is not a good thing. With too much tip lead, and the lack of long leg short leg going on, the inside ski is just too flat on the snow, and it’s very hard to turn over. I don’t see enough long leg short leg to the degree needed for this skier. As we see in the outstanding racer photos later in the post, there is tip lead but massive long leg short leg, giving the impression of a lot more tip lead than there really is.

As you suggested, buy pulling the inside ski back, this skier would be squarer to the skis. There also would be more dynamic movement through the turn and less of a “park & ride” static stance that is shown in this photo at this particular place in time.

Ric, I agree that the skier needs to be less inclined, or less banked. But from what I’m reading, it seems that you are suggesting that the skier needs to be angulated with more counter. Maybe this is not what you are suggesting at all. I’m just saying that it seems to me, that is what you are suggesting. I’m thinking that being more angulated would do less to improve what I see and less to improve the inner half for this skier in this moment in time. Banking, IMHO, is an excessive form of inclination. There is a fine line between banking, weighting the inside ski excessively and stacking, still being outside ski dominate, IMHO. My thoughts are that the skier needs to square up a bit better by pulling the inside ski back (very difficult if one is standing with all their weight on it) and standing on the outside ski more, to get stacked better. Why not try a push pull move? This really helps me get squarer to the skis and move through the turn better.
I like the tracks this skier recorded on the snow, but I suspect that there is more displacement on the outside ski because of the banking that is showing up in the photo. I think that the outside track would be a bit cleaner if there was more weight to that side. Anyway, Ric, these are my thoughts and my two cents worth. : ------------Wigs
post #16 of 26
So I would just ask, How can a skier be less banked or full body inclined but keep the same edge angles without using more angulation than they are and allowing some positive counter to develope as the inside hip moves forward in the turn?

As I see it, in a banked turn, a line drawn from one side of the pelvis to the other will stay at relatively right angles to the outside leg. Adding angulation will increase the angle of the pelvis to the outside leg allowing the upper body to stay more upright, direct the body power or mass more to the outside ski, freeing up the inside hip and leg, allowing the inside hip to move forward as the turn develposes, which frees up the inside foot to stay closer under the inside hip. In other words the hips stay more parallel to the surface of the snow. One leg abducts, one leg adducts as they rotate. And yes, I do think some counter needs to "develope". Which to me means the inside hip does move forward as the turn developes. I find it benificial to help students feel this. That's all. And yes I think this individual is a prime candidate for this. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #17 of 26
First of all I want to say I am enjoying the discussion in this thread as well as the discussion between Bob and Weems at the thread concerning fore-aft balance.

It's making me think,helping my teaching, and helping my skiing. Thanks to all for the lively discussion.

Back to the matter at hand.

I am at a point in my teaching where I believe a great many "issues" in a person's skiing are caused by "how" a turn starts. I see so many skiers who have a "tip lead" problem who begin an attempt to carve a turn by pushing their inside foot forward.

I once heard Burt Skall from Copper say, "if you are pushing the foot forward you aren't tipping the foot".
post #18 of 26
Rusty Guy,

About the pushing the inside foot forward and you are not tipping the ski,-----Right On!

I will try and finish my response to Ric's latest, but I gotta go right now. Going skiing with Charlie Mac, D Team.----Wigs

[ February 13, 2004, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: Wigs ]
post #19 of 26
RicB,

Ric said,

So I would just ask, How can a skier be less banked or full body inclined but keep the same edge angles without using more angulation than they are and allowing some positive counter to develope as the inside hip moves forward in the turn?

Ric, IMHO, by tipping the ankles and rotating the femurs while stacking up slightly inside of the outside ski. I believe that if there was a line drawn from the outside middle of the outside foot, that this should come up right through the armpit. If the armpit is farther down the hill than the outside foot, then this is a weak link and the skier might be too angulated.

Ric said,

As I see it, in a banked turn, a line drawn from one side of the pelvis to the other will stay at relatively right angles to the outside leg. Adding angulation will increase the angle of the pelvis to the outside leg allowing the upper body to stay more upright, direct the body power or mass more to the outside ski, freeing up the inside hip and leg, allowing the inside hip to move forward as the turn develposes, which frees up the inside foot to stay closer under the inside hip.

.Ric, I like the analogy of the line drawn through the pelvis. But let’s take a look at the last racer in the photos. There is very little, what I would call, counter being shown by this skier. He looks very much like I described above, no? He is allowing his speed and the pressure under his feet to help him get stacked up over the outside ski and not overly angulated.

I’m still not sure what you are suggesting with the inside hip. IMHO, by moving the inside hip forward, you will not free up the inside leg, but create counter, reduce the possibilities of rolling the inside ski over and decrease the likelihood of having equal edge angles and giving the image of a static park and ride skier. Buy moving both hips forward if they are back, would free up the leg with no weight on it. This is a drill that I and some of my team members did with Charlie MacArthur, D Team member and trainer just recently. It was a shuffling exercise. We would stand on either the inside or outside ski and slowly move the other light foot forwards and backwards as we skied through medium radius turns . We all discovered that if the hips were back, that it blocked the mobility of all parts of the lighter leg. If both hip bones were forward, or we were standing up taller, then we had much more mobility of the lighter leg. In the case of the inside leg, if we were taller and squarer to the skis with our hips, it was much easier to roll or tip the inside foot over and create equal edge angles.

Ric said
allowing the inside hip to move forward as the turn develposes, which frees up the inside foot to stay closer under the inside hip.

Ric,I’m having a hard time understanding how by letting the inside hip move forward would help with keeping the inside foot under the inside hip without massive counter. IMHO, in this configuration, at the beginning of the new turn, it could lead to a lot of rotation. Ric, maybe I’m just reading and visualizing what you’re saying wrong. But I sure like what I see in those racer shots, and to me, that’s what it should look like. : ----------------------Wigs

[ February 13, 2004, 07:27 AM: Message edited by: Wigs ]
post #20 of 26
Wigs, in those racer shots, it looks to me like the hips are largely aligned under the shoulders of each racer. If that is the case, then the inside (uphill in these pictures) hip is forward of the outside hip. I think I see this because the shoulders are facing more downhill than the feet and skis, which, if I am correct in seeing that the hips are under the shoulders, would imply that the hips are facing more downhill, as well.

Am I not seeing something correctly here?
post #21 of 26
Quote:
Originally posted by Rusty Guy:
...I once heard Burt Skall from Copper say, "if you are pushing the foot forward you aren't tipping the foot"...
AND

Quote:
Originally posted by Wigs:
...IMHO, by moving the inside hip forward, you will not free up the inside leg, but create counter, reduce the possibilities of rolling the inside ski over and decrease the likelihood of having equal edge angles and giving the image of a static park and ride skier. Buy moving both hips forward if they are back, would free up the leg with no weight on it. This is a drill that I and some of my team members did with Charlie MacArthur, D Team member and trainer just recently. It was a shuffling exercise. We would stand on either the inside or outside ski and slowly move the other light foot forwards and backwards as we skied through medium radius turns . We all discovered that if the hips were back, that it blocked the mobility of all parts of the lighter leg. If both hip bones were forward, or we were standing up taller, then we had much more mobility of the lighter leg. In the case of the inside leg, if we were taller and squarer to the skis with our hips, it was much easier to roll or tip the inside foot over and create equal edge angles. ...
Exactly. Last weekend, I had a clinic where the clinic leader (an Examiner) first had us doing things like "Telemark turns on Alpine gear" to first allow us to become completely comfortable with adjusting the tip lead. Once there, he had us experimenting with varying ammts of tip lead (all the way up to "completely reversed") while attempting to tip the inside ski by varying ammts.

Once I got used to varying the tip lead, it was like a light bulb turned on in my head. Less lead (ie, having at foot under your body, not out in front) clearly frees up that knee to move laterally. I don't completely own this movement yet, but it was almost one of those, "How could I have been so stupid for so many years" moments. [img]redface.gif[/img]

Its not quite the same thing, but I used to think that a diverging step onto a new inside leg with a fair ammt of tip lead was pretty hot stuff. I can still imagine there might be some uses for it (eg, to step up to a higher line). However, it now seems crude, less efficient, and offering smaller angles than what we are talking about.

Tom / PM
post #22 of 26
Wigs, for now I'll just say that I see everyone of those racers as having their pelvis tilted up in relation to their outside leg, and the inside hip is forward in relation to the direction their skis are heading. The inside leg is much shoter than the outside leg which results in the inside foot being forward. The only way that the inside hip can remain over the inside foot is for the hip to naturally move forward through the turn. this keeps good alignment of the feet knees hips and shoulders that I see in these photos. I don't see square in these photos in relation to the skis. More square than the past technique? Sure, but not totaly square to the skis.

I'm not advocating counter rotation or unnatural tip lead, just a good positive strong flow of the inside half into and through the turn.

As I see it forced counter and forced squarness are equally wrong unless they improve the efficiency of our movment into and through the turn.

I still belive that our balance needs to be directed to the inside edge of the outside ski. I have a primary stance ski. this doesn't mean I have no role for my inside ski. I think we are in agreement on the inside knee and femur, the ankle on the other hand, tips very little, and really serves to focus alignment over the inside edge of the outside ski when the foot is weighted.

I skied with Charlie Mac a couple of years ago. I really benifited form his time and have alot of respect for him. He had us do an exercise out of our ski boots to show us how our ankle really couldn't tip sideways without rotation, and foot can rotate very little in our boots. So how much can we really tip our foot?

I played with mono marks in alpine gear a fair amount. I'm and old three piner. It's a very honest task, meaning it brings out the unnessasary moves. For me skiing is not a bout what I "can" do, but about how little I can do to achieve my intent and how much flow I can have.

In the end good skiing is good skiing. We all recognize it. the journey is in finding it in ourselves and helping our students find it in themselves. I have no doubt we agree on that.

[ February 14, 2004, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: Ric B ]
post #23 of 26
Thread Starter 
I think we are in agreement on the inside knee and femur, the ankle on the other hand, tips very little, and really serves to focus alignment over the inside edge of the outside ski when the foot is weighted.
post #24 of 26
Maybe to simplify this more I would just say that this is all relative to the position of the outside leg and foot and the direction of the outside ski.
post #25 of 26
Awhile back I started looking at how much tip lead top(20 FIS point) slalom racers were using when I was at the Mid-Ams. Camera angles can be kind of deceiving.
Most of the turn there is none or very little. At the end of the turn where edge angles are highest it appeared to be 2or 3 inches at the most. The athletes that ran later were using quite a bit more.
There hasn't been much slalom on TV this year but last years WC Finals video bears this out too.
post #26 of 26
Last year I watched the Canadian Championships and the most striling feature was how little inside ski lead most of the kids had. This year I watched lots of World Cup Slalom and the most striking feature is inside leg extension. It seems that the top ten in slalom dont make a conscious effort to pull their inside ski back and some dont even strive for equal edge angle. Bode for one skis clearly knock kneed and it doesn.t seem to do him any harm.
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