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How Come there is NO mention of Helly Hansens Helly Tech O2???

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 

To start off with...yes...i think Gore-tex was the standard for much of what we know today in laminates and membranes...however, I strongly believe that it holds its "King of Waterproofing" reputation based soley on association combined with the lack of technical knowledge in the outerwear consumer.  Its so easy to say..."yeah, Gore-tex is the best out there" because that is exactly what we have been led to believe. Why search anywhere else when you hear "gore-tex is the best" ?!

 

I guess i should start off with the facts:

 

1)Gore-tex lost its patient- TRUE

2)Gore-tex is a membrane that is laminated to high-preformance textiles- TRUE

3)To increase the level of waterproofing Gore-tex is layered- TRUE

4)Gore-tex holds a high standard for the production of any product that holds the GORE-TEX name-TRUE

 

Alright so now that we know the facts lets discuss what they leave out...

During the process of Laminating a material regardless of whether or not it is a "membrane," a form of bonding material is required to sufficiently stack the set materials...(for the sake of not complicating this process im gonna use "GLUE" as my bonding material)

EX: High preformance material (polyester or polymide)

      GLUE

      GORE-TEX Pro Shell Membrane

      GLUE

      for 2L or 3L repeat GORE-TEX Membrane and GLUE  

      Insulation would most likely be free standing insulation here

      Lining (polyester)

 

Your equation for much of what we know in waterproof materials...so here is the down side and accordingly the reason for my title...

 

When you stack a material, especially one that is design as a single material, you are increasing the level of waterproofing but are you increasing the breathability? I think not...but hey i may be wrong. In addition, when a bonding agent is used this material becomes the key fault in waterproof coat. With wear, wash and basic use this bonding agent is going to dilude and eventually wear away, causing the garments basic structure to fall apart...Havent you ever wondered why most companies discourage the washing of your gear?

 

Now on to Helly Tech O2 by Helly Hansen...

First off, im not writing this to say this is the BEST membrane out there, because im sure with enouph research that could be disproved. What I'm writing is what i know about the material. Helly Hansens Helly tech O2 is a single laminate ranked at a minimum of 20,000mm (or 66 ft of rainfall) over 24hrs, and a 20,000 g/m2/24hr breathability. Yes, there structure is one of stacking materials, however they have developed a way of heat pressing these materials together into ONE piece of material (this is for a shell jkt) with insulation there is more layers but the essential "waterproof" layer is one piece. Every jacket that Helly Hansen  calls "waterproof" is fully-seam sealed and every jacket that has Helly tech O2 has polyurethane, laser cut zippers or a YKK AquaSeal Zippers. They carry a LIFETIME warranty that covers all manifacturing defects. With any high-end waterproofing the price points do seem to increase, for a Helly Tech O2 jkt you will be looking at anywhere between $350-$700 for a fully insulated jacket, and i recommend that if you havent read about there new Enigma Flow Down Jacket, you take a look!

 

Before this turns into a book im gonna stop here...please let me know if i said something wrong or if you have constructive criticism

sidenote: In addition to owning a Jacket with Helly Tech O2 i received alot of my information from a representative at Helly Hansen

 

post #2 of 15

If they haven't already, they should add you to the payroll.  My wife has a HH and loves it.  I don't know if it is tech 02.

 

I agree with your general statements because we tend to just go get the things we've been told enough times are the best.  I have no idea why anyone would believe someone from Marketing.  At least that doesn't back up their statements with anything more than cool looking adds.

 

I do like it when people bring things up that make us question what we believe to be true.

 

Thanks,

Ken

post #3 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by techhead View Post
 In addition to owning a Jacket with Helly Tech O2 i received alot of my information from a representative at Helly Hansen

 



... and probably some money or free gear if you spread the word.

 

6 total posts, all from yesterday or today, all regarding Helly Hansen or Gore-Tex (how HH is good and Gore is overrated).

post #4 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

If they haven't already, they should add you to the payroll.  

That part's true. OP seems kinda, ah, like a true believer. Or clumsy viral marketer.

 

The rest, well I can't say about O2, but from stuff I've Googled on the web, including a military document about water vapor pressure required for transmission, various temps, real eye glazing stuff, eVent and Gore Tex Pro are pretty much at the top of the heap. That's been my own experience too, at least compared to the various coatings. But IMO, none of them are all that great; they're all too good at preventing water vapor from passing outward when you're sweating. So they work nicely for casual alpine skiing, not so well for AT or serious alpine training, barely so-so for hiking or trail running in cool climates, and backpacking in the tropics, hmmm, you'll get about as wet wearing any of them as not. 

post #5 of 15

I get the sense that this was written in rebuttal to the "Is Goretex still king?" thread. That thread was started over five years ago.

 

This thread sounds like an advertisement for Helly Hansen. Sounds like spam.

 

 

 

post #6 of 15


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by volantaddict

 

This thread sounds like an advertisement for Helly Hansen. Sounds like spam.

 


Between this thread and the other one on HH vs Arc, I think spam is a polite term - I'm thinking shill.

 

So here's my constructive criticism - 7 posts and they're all barely disguised HH ads desperately trying to promote the product? . Try Alpinezone - they don't know any better. 

post #7 of 15

Yeah, the HH marketing looks very thinly disguised.  I can't resist by answer the technical content- what the OP wrote is mostly nonsense, I hope this was the info taken verbatim from HH rep.  One-piece polyurethane membrane is NEVER going to be as breathable as GoreTex, that's why most cheaper laminates (they are typically polyU) feel so clammy; the stuff about glue also is incorrect, the fabric is waterproof as long as one of the layers is waterproof.  If you stack a high breathability layer over a membrane, you generally do not loose much breathability, it is always mainly about the membrane itself.  

post #8 of 15
Thread Starter 

Im flattered that so many think this is an attempt at promoting HH...yes, ill admit it, i work for a Helly Hansen Retail store, have been for three years. Prior to that I worked at a ski shop in Colorado, selling all types of products, mostly GORE-TEX based. And i can tell you that in the long years i have worked for the sales of textiles,  i have learned a lot.

A) being that not all membranes are created equal

 

I take pride in the fact the Helly Hansen IS the longest running outdoor company in the world- yes i said world- having created the first water-repellant material by dipping canvas material, that was used in those days for Sailing, into linseed oil in 1877.  In addition to that, it is a little know fact that when HH first started dabbling into the waterproof/breathable membranes market, they commissioned a company we all know, eVent. With time HH discovered that not only is it extremely expensive to commission a outside source, but that with time the eVent material was actual delaminating. This doesnt work when you hold a Lifetime Warranty. This is where the development of Helly Tech O2 began, they modeled the material after the superior waterproof/breathability of eVent, just with a longer lifespan.

 

oh, also, Im not writing these post to create some sorry attempt at  boosting HH sales. Honestly, im writing them cause after all of my experience with the waterproof membranes out there, I feel i may have found one that i can trully promote. In addition, i wanted the opportunity to discuss FACTS...real truths about what we are spending our money on. (even if it is against HH) Unfortunently, no body, yet has give me facts-

yes i will agree that "fabric is waterproof as long as one of the layers is waterproof" but i believe that if coat starts degrading from the inside, regardless of whether or not the membrane has failed, the coat structure will fail.
And i disagree with the statement that Gore-tex has superior breathability...There are two main types of Membranes on the market PU (polyurethane) membranes and PTFE membranes. HH- PU...Gore-tex-PTFE

 

 

Anyways...In my experience i have found that a large majority of people are unaware of the expansive world of waterproofing, is it wrong that i feel the need to enlighten? I lay out what i know and let people take it for what it is...thats all

post #9 of 15
Thread Starter 

I accidently erase a key phrase:

 

PTFE membranes are a static, or fixed membrane. The breathability is depending solely on the laminate pores. Its unable to "adapt." So what this means is the jacket that works awesome for walking the dog on a rainy day, but its is not gonna work the same as when you skinning two miles to the top of a cliff run.

post #10 of 15

Techhead-  This board is VERY BIG on upfront disclosures, so please keep that in mind.  

 

You say: This is where the development of Helly Tech O2 began, they modeled the material after the superior waterproof/breathability of eVent, just with a longer lifespan.

 

Well, PU membranes (HT O2) have nothing in common with eVent, (structure, materials, breathability levels included).   Please get your science straight.  

 

P.S. Westcomb has lifetime warranty on their eVent garments, so does REI. 

post #11 of 15


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by techhead View Post

 

Anyways...In my experience i have found that a large majority of people are unaware of the expansive world of waterproofing, is it wrong that i feel the need to enlighten? I lay out what i know and let people take it for what it is...thats all

If your goal is to enlighten you obviously have failed, just look at the feedback your post has received. Registering on this site, and immediately posting all about one brand of outerwear, that you happen sell for a living, is hardly a way to convince anyone that you are not primarily motivated by your vested interest.

post #12 of 15

Dear OP, I have done some research into ski outerwear lately since my wife will be buying a new ski kit once the baby arrives. HH makes good stuff. But then again they are like alot of other companies, OR, Mountain hardwear, Arctyrex, TNF, and many others etc... that build great outerwear with alot of the same performance and features at about the same price points. The things that distinguishes the long list of worthy options are the details, warranty, durability, packability, specific features that you may or may not want, do the zipers slide smooth or bind up with 1 handed operation, styling, and fit and of course what if any sales you can find.

 

For in-bounds resort skiing, most people dont' sweat so much riding lifts that they absolutely must have top notch breath-ability in addition to a pit zips and a front zipper vent. And unless you are skiing in a down pour or a warm snow event  full on water proof is not needed either. 

 

If you want a 4 season "all mountain jacket", the best possible laminates are worth it.  But a quiver of outerwear activity specific stuff for DH skiing, XC skiing, cycling, hunting / fishing, will really serve  needs better than any one all mountain jacket.

 


Edited by tromano - 10/11/10 at 7:11pm
post #13 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post

... I have done some research into ski outerwear lately since my wife will be buying a new ski kit once the baby arrives...

 


Must've missed this somewhere earlier. Congrats. When is it due? 

post #14 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by techhead View Post

Im flattered that so many think this is an attempt at promoting HH...yes, ill admit it, i work for a Helly Hansen Retail store, have been for three years.

 

Anyways...In my experience i have found that a large majority of people are unaware of the expansive world of waterproofing, is it wrong that i feel the need to enlighten? I lay out what i know and let people take it for what it is...thats all


VERY bad form to be a shill without being up fromt about it, although ultimately it was pretty hard not to see.

 

Anyway, as indicated in the other unabashed promotion thread, due to substandard design or material, I wouldn't buy a HH product again. And compared to Arcteryx ....

 

(oh, I have no relation of any kind to either)

post #15 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post




Must've missed this somewhere earlier. Congrats. When is it due? 

 

Thanks! Its a little girl. She is due to arrive November 5th.

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