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# Critique a drill - Page 2

[quote]Originally posted by John Dowling:
Quote:
 The key is to learn to release the edge of the outside ski before pressuring the inside ski. The inversion of the right foot releases the edge, allowing that foot to turn downhill. If you do that, the left foot will follow, creating a simultaneous edge change. If you begin the turn with pronation of the left (inside or uphill) foot, the right foot can maintain pressure and edge engagement.
John,

Remember this is only a drill!The right foot is in the air so the right foot can't "maintain pressure and edge engagement". Certainly what you are saying would be the case with both skis on the ground.

My question is this. Why release then pressure? Why not release and tip,tip,tip! A continuum.

[ April 24, 2003, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: Rusty Guy ]
Quote:
Originally posted by Rusty Guy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John Dowling:
Quote:
 The key is to learn to release the edge of the outside ski before pressuring the inside ski. The inversion of the right foot releases the edge, allowing that foot to turn downhill. If you do that, the left foot will follow, creating a simultaneous edge change. If you begin the turn with pronation of the left (inside or uphill) foot, the right foot can maintain pressure and edge engagement.
John,

Remember this is only a drill!The right foot is in the air so the right foot can't "maintain pressure and edge engagement". Certainly what you are saying would be the case with both skis on the ground.

My question is this. Why release then pressure? Why not release and tip,tip,tip! A continuum.</font>
I think we are saying the same thing. The typical intermediate needs is afraid to release the edge of the old turn before engaging the new edge. That's what causes rotary push off and stepping through the turn. Skiing with the downhill ski off the snow obviously demonstrates that it is not necessary to hang on to the old turn.
I also agree that my description was of a sequential movement, but the sequence was reversed from the typical intermediate pattern. The typical intermediate skier gets on the new inside (big toe) edge first, then releases the old outside ski to get to the new inside ski (little toe)edge. The breakthrough these skiers need is to learn to release the old turn before anything else happens. They need to focus on the new inside ski and allow its movement to lead the transition from one turn to the next. Once the turn transition occurs, the pressure will automatically build just from the dynamics of the turn. If you release then tip, you will feel the increase in pressure (or you will fall down).

John
To Rusty, As for your Q? about whay not evert the left foot. To what learning goal? To transfer the effect of doing this drill as such back to skiing with both skis on snow: Why would you want to try to turn right with the left ski while still turning left with the right (not yet released) ski?

On the sequential issue:
The sequential nature of this drill triggered by rolling/tipping/inverting the right foot to turn right (on or off the snow) is part of its value to the learning process of aquiring a new and different "order of movement". Leading students thru experiences of easilly percieved contrasting movements greatly enhances the learning process and awerness of cause and effect.
Going for the blended finished product too soon masks the distinct differance in this new "order of movement".

One that is in distinct contrast to the "power the new outside foot onto it's big toe until it bulldozes the old outside foot out of the previous turn". An order of movement left over from the first wedge turns most skiers learned to ski with, or adopted for lack of guidance to learn any other way to ski.

The "gap" in the timing between the release of new inside, followed by engagment of new outside, is more evident when being newly learned (hense it's sequential appearance).

As this new "order of movement" becomes foundational to ones skiing, and achieves the finished blending, the "gap" shrinks to a nano-second and the release, e/c, engagment of both skis "appears" simultanious. This is what produces the image of parallel lower leg shafts from turn to turn. This "apearance" is only avaliable when release of the new inside ski is the leading "trigger" movement. In contrast, if the new outside big toe is engaged as the leading trigger movement one would observe it's knee closing toward the knee of the as yet unreleased old outside ski (showing a mini-A-frame, or non-parallel leg shafts).
Understanding that modern skiing is best represented using and order of movement distinctly different the one most of the skiers in the world all learned to ski with is paramount to evolving not only our own personal skiing, but to truely becoming teachers of the movements foundational of modern skiing. (vs. teachers of compensating movements adapted from historical skiing).
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[ April 24, 2003, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: Arcmeister ]
So why not do this exercise the other way around??

That is, traverse to the left on the right ski (old outside ski) and gently flatten and then tip to its right edge for a right turn? Follow this with allowing the weight to shift toward left-ski dominance after the right edges become engaged?

A more gradual, smoother White Pass Turn?
Arcmiester explained my thoughts better than I did. Thanks.

Quote:
 Originally posted by Kneale Brownson:So why not do this exercise the other way around?? That is, traverse to the left on the right ski (old outside ski) and gently flatten and then tip to its right edge for a right turn? Follow this with allowing the weight to shift toward left-ski dominance after the right edges become engaged? A more gradual, smoother White Pass Turn?
KB- This is an excellent excercise, but it is requires much more advanced balance skills and committment to the new edge. The drill we have been discussing is appropriate for advanced skiers who are still wedging a little bit, or pushing their skis at turn initiation.

John

[ April 25, 2003, 06:02 AM: Message edited by: John Dowling ]
OK, a couple things:

First is a question. If the goal you are trying to achieve is to introduce the idea of using the inside foot/leg to initiate the kinetic chain for the new turn why lift the downhill foot? Doing this provides the student with the sensation of having already done a weight transfer and then finishing the turn by disengaging the uphill ski edge. The sensation is felt in the uphill foot even if it is a delayed reaction to something that started in the downhill foot/leg.

Would it not be better to achieve the goal you state by lifting the uphill foot and allow the student to experience a more authentic feeling of releasing the turn with the downhill foot/leg. Doing this would provide the student with the opportunity to feel the sensation of edge release in the downhill foot, where it actually felt when we ski if tipping is initiated before a weight transfer.

Second, there are more than one way to skin a cat, and in modern ski techniques to turn a shape ski. Get out your World Cup ski racing tapes boys because I'm going to describe a technique that is being currently used that does not initiate a new turn by the tipping of inside foot/leg and is by no legitamit definition old school. Note this is ONE technique they are using, they use many. Look for it in GS courses on moderate pitch and moderate offset where no redirection of skis prior to edge engagement is being employed.

At turn completion the first movement is a subtle extension onto the uphill ski. This move serves two purposes.

1) It release the pressure on the downhill ski, where most of the resistance of turning forces is taking place, which allows the leg to relax and the flattening process of the foot (disengagement) to begin.

2) It provides the skier a much earlier pressuring of the new outside ski which allows him the ability to roll that ski on edge very smoothly and thus produce a very clean and early engagement of the edge to initiate the carve.

That initial extension onto the uphill ski is followed by the following movement sequence:

1) As extension takes place (don't freak out on me now, it is subtle extension) the downhill ski lightens and opens the kinetic gate for pelvis reconfiguration.

2) With the gate open the counter that was being employed in the prior turn is reversed to set the pelvis in proper position for the next turn. It is a limited counter initially, but enough to begin to drive the new outside foot into pronation (which begins the process of engaging the big toe edge), to move the CM inside the feet, and to pull the inside ski on edge in harmony with the outside ski.

3) As the turn progresses and the forces grow the counter and inside movement of CM is intensified, which further lowers CM and facilitates the efficient resistance of forces, and it drives the foot into an even more big toe locked state.

4) At the end of the turn the skier again extends onto the uphill ski and repeats the movement sequence for the next turn.

I would think the lifting of the downhill ski would be a drill better suited to the introduction of this technique for students.
Arc and I had a sidebar on a p.m. about the use of the term eversion vs. pronation. I don't want to get too technical here, suffice it to say we disagree a bit. Arc has forgotten more than I will ever know, however, I got corrected about the use of the term inversion/eversion by a physician. I can live with either term.

My issue is with the following in the case of this drill;

1) inverting/supinating the right foot
2) a ripple effect up the kinetic chain to the pelvis
3) the pelvis pulling the left foot flat

Is this what we do (have the pelvis pulling the outside ski flat) in a rr track turn, or do we merely invert/supinate/abduct one foot while everting/pronating/adducting the other?

[ April 25, 2003, 06:52 AM: Message edited by: Rusty Guy ]
Gee, another thought. At what point do we consider introducing the skills these drills are intended to do important. I would contend that focus on parallel lower legs is not something we should overly promote for pre carve students because it requires a movement of CM inside of the feet that is counterproductive to maintaining balance in non carved turns. Simple language, their going to be falling on their inside ski!

Either of the drills in the way I described them could be introduced effectively to students if done so at the appropriate time in their learning: Once they are ready to focus on carving which should come only when they have developed the balance skills to do so.
Quote:
 Originally posted by FastMan:OK, First is a question. If the goal you are trying to achieve is to introduce the idea of using the inside foot/leg to initiate the kinetic chain for the new turn why lift the downhill foot? At turn completion the first movement is a subtle extension onto the uphill ski. This move serves two purposes. 1) It release the pressure on the downhill ski, where most of the resistance of turning forces is taking place, which allows the leg to relax and the flattening process of the foot (disengagement) to begin. 2) It provides the skier a much earlier pressuring of the new outside ski which allows him the ability to roll that ski on edge very smoothly and thus produce a very clean and early engagement of the edge to initiate the carve. That initial extension onto the uphill ski is followed by the following movement sequence:
Fastman,

This is getting to the gist of my query. So which should be taught to the student? A release of the inside foot done via inverion/supination/abduction

or

a move onto the new outside ski accompanied by extension with flexion of the inside ski?

[ April 25, 2003, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: Rusty Guy ]
Rusty, I think both should be taught to our students. Both have a place in modern ski technique, and are used in the proper situation. We must resist being pigeon holed into grasping onto one technique as the holy grail.
Quote:
 Originally posted by Rusty Guy: This is getting to the gist of my query. So which should be taught to the student? A release of the inside foot done via inverion/supination/abduction or a move onto the new outside ski accompanied by extension with flexion of the inside ski?
This is a discussion about a drill which begins with a traverse on the uphill ski. A student at that skill level has already learned to transfer weight to the new outside ski, and is ready to learn to initiate a turn by release of the inside ski. As Arcmeister noted above, tipping the downhill ski (while it is held off the snow), creates some of the feeling of initiating a turn from the new inside ski.
Moving to the outside ski is a movement of the center of mass up the hill, and is generally defensive, regardless of its use by top racers. Every low intermediate skier moves to his outside ski pretty easily, and those who can traverse on their uphill ski have mastered that skill.
So my answer is that we need to teach both skills, but release of the new inside ski is the higher skill.

John

[ April 25, 2003, 07:25 AM: Message edited by: John Dowling ]
Hey, fastman just described what DavidM was talking about!
Whatever happened to David M?

RR
Quote:
 Originally posted by FastMan:We must resist being pigeon holed into grasping onto one technique as the holy grail.
I don't think this has anything to do with being pigeon holed. As you stated very well I think there are multiple ways to skin the cat.

I do think recent ski teaching has sought to find things such as "common threads" or "core movements" and that certainly serves to make things easier to grasp for new teachers and new students.

I'd love to hear you expound on your idea a little more. Are you suggesting for one student we would teach certain movements and for a second student a different set? Are you suggesting we present all the "ways to skin the cat" to every student and allow them to ferret out what is best in their case?
Quote:
 Originally posted by FastMan:Gee, another thought. At what point do we consider introducing the skills these drills are intended to do important. I would contend that focus on parallel lower legs is not something we should overly promote for pre carve students because it requires a movement of CM inside of the feet that is counterproductive to maintaining balance in non carved turns. Simple language, their going to be falling on their inside ski!
Fastman you bring up a lot of wonderful points. I suppose this gets to the heart of one of my strong feelings. I spent the bulk of my winter teaching new skiers. I would contend no student should be taught to actively move their cm to the inside of a turn or to "transfer their weight" or to flex/extend. They are resultants of gravity.

A movement of the cm to the inside happens as a result of a turn depending upon speed, pitch, etc. It is not something that we actively do. It is a component of the right movements enhancing balance.

On the subject of parallel tib/fibs. Once a student is doing some sort of christie or matching, barring horrible alignment issues, I would constend shafts line up fairly naturally whether skidding, scarving, or carving.
It all depends on where the student is at.

I can teach certain movements more easilly to never-ever beginners (who have no latent habits to deal with) than to seasoned "advanced" skiers who use predominantly habitual movements that are inefficient in their order.

I think ultimatly one should to learn to move in as many different ways as one wants to. Versitility and adaptability should be the goal.

That said, with new skier where there are no habits to deal with, I choose to teach releasing, letting go, movements first. I've found it is easier later for someone with releasing, letting go, core movements to simply delay the release and stem, step, unweight or whatever, than it is for those core non-releasing movements to learn to release and let go of the sense of security (crutch) they have in hanging onto the edge of the old outside ski while they move to the big toe of the new outside ski.

As a golfer I'd rather first learn efficient swing mechanics and stance alighment that hit the ball where I want it to go. And then later learn to slightly adjust and adapt those solid core swing mechanics to a draw, fade, hook or slice ball flight as desired. First learning gross slice swing mechanics traps me over on one side of the spectrum of options and makes later learning to master the fullrange a difficult proposition starting from an inefficient movement foundation.

Our paradox is that we should be teaching our students to learn about skiing in ways that we for the most part did not use ourselves until most reciently, and then only as an adaptive process. It requires insite and knowledge to detach from and go beyond "this is what I do and it works for me" to appropriatly craft each students ideal learning experience to meet their needs and maximise their potential.
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[quote]Originally posted by Rusty Guy:

A movement of the cm to the inside happens as a result of a turn depending upon speed, pitch, etc. It is not something that we actively do. It is a component of the right movements enhancing balance.

FASTMAN:
I agree with you that movement of CM has a hormonic relationship with edge angle, speed, pitch, etc. The question here is what starts the chain of events. Do we wait for forces to grow to move the CM inside to oppose them, or do we move the CM inside to create them?

Think of it this way: Our main objective is to turn the ski in a new direction. We know to do this we have to put the ski on edge and apply pressure to engage the sidecut, so the question becomes what bio mechanism will we use to put the ski on edge.

To answer this we should focus on two absolutes:

1) An aligned, straight leg is much stronger for resisting turning forces than an angulated, flexed leg.

2) The outside leg is where the majority of the forces of the turn should be directed because it is bio mechanically best suited to resist those forces. (we can discuss this at greater length if anyone desires)

In consideration of those two truths I would think we would all agree that it would be most efficient to maintain a stright/alligned outside leg for as much of the turn as possible. To keep the leg in such position the hip and knee must move in synchronism with the tipping of the foot.

If we tip the foot first and leave the hip static we put the leg in a knee angulated position which leaves it structurally weakened. In this situation the forces are not being directed through the hip and into the foot, but are attempting to drive the CM over the top of the feet and muscular supplementation must be employed to assist in the battle to avoid that happening. This puts big time stress on the knee.

Even if we allow the hip to move inside the feet once we feel the forces grow we are for a moment in a structurally weak position until we can make the necessary structural adjustment, and as the turn develops and more edge is applied we continue to play catch up to the feet with the CM if we continue to apply this strategy. This is probably an advisable approach for someone who is just learning to balance the forces of a turn, but as we become more refined in our ability to balance these forces we should strive for synchronization of hip/knee/foot, and be able to employ that synch very rapidly to a high edge. This is the key to efficiency in carving.

RUSTY:
On the subject of parallel tib/fibs. Once a student is doing some sort of christie or matching, barring horrible alignment issues, I would constend shafts line up fairly naturally whether skidding, scarving, or carving.

FASTMAN:
Perhaps. Remember though that each of those type of turns with similar radius will create different forces, and therefor will require a different position of CM to achieve optimum balance.

Remember the days of straight skis? We saw body positions with CM more over the feet then we do with shapes. This is because those skis did not create the forces the new skis do so CM was not required to move inside as much, if fact it damn near impossible to get way inside with CM without our butts ending up on the snow. This more upright position was the origin of the pyramid knees we remember, we angulated the outside knee and kept the inside foot flat to discourage the hip from falling in so we could remain in balance. This was the predominant slalom technique where slow speeds made the use of hip very hazardous.

That same situation occurs on shape skis when making steered turns at slow speeds. The hip must be kept more over the feet to facilitate good balance on the outside ski because the forces are so low. Pyramid knees are therefore not necessarily a mistake in this situation. As the turns gravitate towards carves the forces will grow and with them the need to bring the hip more inside which will naturally pull the inside knee along with it producing the parallel lower legs we associate with modern technique.

RUSTY:
I'd love to hear you expound on your idea a little more. Are you suggesting for one student we would teach certain movements and for a second student a different set? Are you suggesting we present all the "ways to skin the cat" to every student and allow them to ferret out what is best in their case?

FASTMAN:
Same set of skills to all students, if that is possible within the parameters of your teaching environment. Yes, that would include all skinning methods, introduced in an order of easy to more difficult, accompanied by an explanation of possible applications for each why we might choose a particular one in a particular situation. A normal base rule of thumb is that edge release from the new outside ski after weight transfer is for most students easier than release from the new inside ski before weight transfer so I would suggest starting a student with that technique, though I know that may be painful for some ears to hear. Understand that disengagement of an edge can only be done from a pressured ski, if there is no weight on the ski there is nothing to disengage. Therefore disengagement of the new inside ski edge is basically a white pass lean move which is a more advanced balance task and I would logically think a technique for later introduction.

There is also retraction unweighting for pelvis reconfiguration, tail pressure retraction for pelvis reconfiguration with rapid leg extension, extension of outside leg turn completion, inside leg extension with pivot, and retraction with pivot as additional turn transition techniques, but lets save something for another day. :
Fastman,

I get the gist of what I think your saying, however I have to say I question a couple of things. You referred to two "absolutes" and the first was;

" An aligned, straight leg is much stronger for resisting turning forces than an angulated, flexed leg."

You go on to add;

"If we tip the foot first and leave the hip static we put the leg in a knee angulated position which leaves it structurally weakened. In this situation the forces are not being directed through the hip and into the foot, but are attempting to drive the CM over the top of the feet and muscular supplementation must be employed to assist in the battle to avoid that happening."

My only quarrel would be in speaking of any of this as being an absolute. I think I can find a whole host of kineisiologists and strength coaches who would argue your first point. Secondly you seem to infer the knee angulates?

On turn initiation;

"A normal base rule of thumb is that edge release from the new outside ski after weight transfer is for most students easier than release from the new inside ski before weight transfer so I would suggest starting a student with that technique, though I know that may be painful for some ears to hear."

You're certainly right about ear pain. It's a negative movement. You have inferred you have many years of experience teaching and chastised me for my mere three years of full time teaching, however, my experience is that students are able to release and steer the inside ski.

I'd love to hear your thoughts
[quote]Originally posted by Rusty Guy:

FastMan said:
" An aligned, straight leg is much stronger for resisting turning forces than an angulated, flexed leg."

I think I can find a whole host of kineisiologists and strength coaches who would argue your first point. Secondly you seem to infer the knee angulates?

FASTMAN:
Rusty, imagine picking up a barbell to chin height with as much weight as you can handle. Now in what manner could you hold that weight for the longest time, standing straight up with your legs in a state of extension or in a squat position with your legs in a state of flexion.

When I speak of knee angulation I do so in the traditional sense of ski instruction. It is the movement of the knee out of alingnemt (to the inside) with the ankle and hip socket. Rather than a big biomechanical explanation of how that happens just do this: stand up, and without moving the pelvis left or right, put your right foot on a high edge while keeping the left foot flat. You are now executing knee angulation. Now imagine holding that weight I spoke of in a squat position and with one knee angulated like this, it would feel like your ligaments were being ripped apart.

RUSTY:
you go on to add;
"A normal base rule of thumb is that edge release from the new outside ski after weight transfer is for most students easier than release from the new inside ski before weight transfer so I would suggest starting a student with that technique, though I know that may be painful for some ears to hear."

You're certainly right about ear pain. It's a negative movement.

FASTMAN:
Not really Rusty. We are not actually moving up the hill as some suggest because in a carved turn the CM is already there combating the combined forces of centrifugal force and gravity. All we are doing is an extension of the uphill leg which has an immediate effect of reducing the downhill ski pressure and transferring that pressure to the uphill ski.

What this does is create an immediate movement of point of pressure closer to CM which affects the balance equation and allows the forces of the turn to assist in moving CM up over the skis and into a neutral plane. In reality the only movement center of mass has made is vertically and down the hill. The vertical movement facilitates the extension of the leg that will be put to use later in the turn. The benefit of this technique is that it provides a much earlier pressuring of the new outside ski which allows the development of the carve to happen more subtly.

Edge disengagement from the downhill ski requires the new turn to be initiated on the downhill ski and delays new outside ski engagement until much later in the turn. It also, as I said before, is a more difficult balance task for the new carver to perform.

This inside ski extension is a common WC technique and they use it for the same edge development benefits I described here. Usage of the technique in that arena speaks to it efficiency.

RUSTY:
You have inferred you have many years of experience teaching and chastised me for my mere three years of full time teaching, however, my experience is that students are able to release and steer the inside ski.

FASTMAN:
Chastised? Not at all Rusty. My purpose was to suggest to you to keep an open mind, not to critisise you. If you infered it that way I apologize for projecting that illusion. You are to be commended for the effort you have put into this and the ground you have covered in the time you have.

Yes, I do have many years of teaching full time teaching/coaching in my background and many more years skiing/racing. Through those years I have seen current PSIA themes da jouir come and go like the tides. At the base of those themes are some core technical constants that these themes have either existed in dependency on or in defiance of. It is very important for the ski teacher to understand those core constants and measure the new themes to come against them for validity. I've also seen much get lost from the origin of these themes in the translation at the local level. Keeping your own mind and questioning allows you to identify those conflicts.

I too have found that skiers can be guided to an ability to initiate a turn from the old outside/new inside ski, but I have always found it to be the more advanced move. Pressuring a foot with CM in a fore/aft neutral position drives the foot into pronation. This creates a situation when starting a turn on the inside ski in which the foot attempts to drive the ski onto its inside (non turning) edge. To resist this we must incorporate assistance from the lateral boot cuff in establishing a balance platform which is conducive to engagement of the outside edge of the inside ski. This mandates we ski in a less than optimal balance platform and makes the skill a more advanced maneuver.
Quote:
 Originally posted by Rusty Guy:For the more advanced skier the right ski is in the air , for the less advanced the right ski tip is on the snow
Please correct me if I am wrong, but when I practice one ski turns, if the tip of the downhill ski is on the snow, that to me is an indication of my weight and center of mass being too much forward on my skis. Just as a propeller turns on an airplane well because it is centered on the propeller shaft, I would think it would be easier for this drill if our propellers (skis) were centered on our legs. If I practice one ski turns with a student, I prefer them to try to keep the downhill ski off of the snow, and if they have to touch the snow with it for balance, to have them tap the whole ski on the snow, not just the tip. Am I correct? Am I missing something here? If so, what am I missing?
I only presented the two options because I have seen it done both ways.
[quote]Originally posted by jimbo:
Please correct me if I am wrong, but when I practice one ski turns, if the tip of the downhill ski is on the snow, that to me is an indication of my weight and center of mass being too much forward on my skis.
============================

It can be an indication of to much fore jimbo, if fact it's a good drill for helping students to move into fore balance planes. The problem is it's a drill that can be cheated on pretty easy. The ski tip can easily be touched to the snow by simply flexing the knee of the lifted leg without the moving of the CM the drill is attempting to achieve.

This method of cheating can also be employed when doing the lifting the entire ski drill. The student just flexes the knee enough to touch the tip as a balance supliment without adjusting CM. So when you see the tip on the snow it could be a fore problem, or it could just be a neutral CM cheating tactic. You have to look close to see which it is.
The following is a living room exercise you guys can do to get a feeling of the inside leg extension for turn transition technique Rusty and I have been discussing in this thread.

 Stand with feet about shoulder width apart, with right foot slightly ahead of your left foot and with a wall about 3 feet to the right of your right foot. Your shoulders should be perpendicular to the wall.

 Now lean into the wall and brace yourself against it with your right hand while you allow your pelvis to drop and counter (rotate to the left) into a high edge set. Your left (outside) leg should be extended, your right leg should be flexed, both feet should be on similarly high edges, weight should be concentrated on the left foot, and shoulders should be level. You are now in a simulated high energy carved turn body position.

 Now to simulate the move Rusty and I were discussing, begin to extend the right (inside) leg which should currently have very little pressure on it. As you do this you will feel pressure develop on the little toe side of your right foot, pressure begin to leave the left foot, and CM begin to rise and move left.

 As you continue extension of the right leg you will feel the pressure that movement applies to the right foot drive the foot flat, which helps pull the CM over the top of that foot. You will quickly return to a neutral balance position with pelvis rotationally neutral, CM over the right foot, and pressure concentrated on that foot.

 You are now in a position to begin the new turn. With weight still on your right foot step slightly forward with the left foot as you simultaneously counter (rotate it right) your pelvis and drop it left into the new turn. You should now be in a mirror image of position you were in while leaning against the wall to the right except your weight will be concentrated on your left (inside) foot. This is because you don’t have a wall to brace against which simulates the turn forces that moves the point of pressure to the outside ski.

 You can continue into a new turn by extending on the left foot and following the same movement sequence you just did and returning to the wall braced position in which you started.

So what has happened here? Simple, you’ve just made a very efficient turn transition that keeps you in constant solid contact with the snow and allows for very early outside ski pressuring and the ability to produce a very clean and progressive edge engagement of that ski. This progressive application of edge is a crucial element in the formula for the production of high quality carved turns.

The pelvis moves in a duo pendulum fashion through this movement sequence. The first is a lateral (left/right) pendulum motion with the anchor of the pendulum between the feet, and the second is a rotational pendulum motion with the anchor at pelvis height above the ski tips. These pendulums move in unison and produce a very flowing and efficient movement pattern. As you refine this movement pattern in the living room exercise you will feel the natural flow of it, and may be able to experience a mental imagery sensation of how it would feel on snow.

This is not the only turn transition technique that the developing skier should perfect, it is just one of many, but it’s a core skill that should be in the pocket of every new carver. And it’s also a technique that is utilized extensively by the best racers on the World Cup because they understand the efficiency of motion and foot to ground contact enhancement it provides.

Nolo started a thread a while back asking if you can learn to ski in the summer. You betch ya!!

.
Quote:
 Originally posted by FastMan:  You are now in a position to begin the new turn. With weight still on your right foot step slightly forward with the left foot as you simultaneously counter (rotate it right) your pelvis and drop it left into the new turn. [/QB]
Fastman,

I have to offer my disagreement with two things;

1) One common thread among folks who don't carve very well or simply cannot carve period is their inside foot moving forward in any way at turn initiatin. I heard Burt Skall (SSD @ Copper& PSIA-RM examiner) say this winter, "if your inside foot is moving forward to start a turn it isn't tipping".

As an aside I think this is a great time to point out another feeling that I have. Any attempt to transfer weight to the new outside ski, creation of a stance foot, and/or lightening the inside foot creates an environment ripe for rotary movements with the inside foot. I see multitudes of people with all their weight "transferred" to the outside ski and their inside foot kind of starts wandering and rotating. There isn't anything wrong with inside foot steering, unless you're trying to carve a turn.

2) I think any mention of the word "counter-rotation" serves to destroy a carveed turn. Skiers who counter-rotate or remain countered in the course of a carved turn end up with the very "straight leg that you advocate, become locked, park and ride, and can only increase edge angles by counter rotating more and accompanying that movement with moving their pelvis further inside the turn.

How do I know? I suffered for a year in a locked up/counter-rotated position while carving. Yes I was locked on edge. Bob Barnes spent days and hours fixing the problem.
Quote:
 Originally posted by FastMan:  You are now in a position to begin the new turn. With weight still on your right foot step slightly forward with the left foot as you simultaneously counter (rotate it right) your pelvis and drop it left into the new turn. .[/QB]
Fastman, great comments in this thread, but with any drill, especially on dry-land, it is hard to mimic the completely correct ski movement.

The words I am concerned about is "...step slightly forward with the left foot...."

This may lead to many different bad habits...1 - shuffling feet,
2 - lead change caused by moving of the feet rather than pelvic position related to the hill, 3 - opening up of the new uphill ankle driving you into the bck seat, 4 - rotation of the upper body.

If we go with the thought of the inside ski is the driving/steering ski and the new outside is the support ski, can you still get the same "feel" by placing a towel(slippery surface) under the outside half(little toeside) of each foot. As you roll your foot, the inside ski will be on a slippery surface, so it can slide(not step) forward when the pelvis rotates.When you enter your "new" turn, you will be skiing forward down the hallway!!! You will also feel the CM moving forward. Still not a cure-all of developing baad habits. Nothing is perfect.
Earlier Kneale mentioned doing this drill starting on the downhill ski. This modification is the real test if you believe that your CM moves over the skiis!!! With your CM moving into "thin air", you really do need to believe in the system. If you start with your weight on your uphill ski (this drill), your CM is moving towards a psychological crutch of your unweighted in the air ski.
Which is what I meant by "leap of faith"!
RUSTY SAYS:
I think any mention of the word "counter-rotation" serves to destroy a carveed turn. Skiers who counter-rotate or remain countered in the course of a carved turn end up with the very "straight leg that you advocate, become locked, park and ride, and can only increase edge angles by counter rotating more and accompanying that movement with moving their pelvis further inside the turn.

FASTMAN:
OK, now I know I didn't use the term counter-rotation. Though I do use it in my own teaching, I purposely avoid using it here because it confuses some people who consider it a turning mechanism.

This is another unfortunate byproduct of the current struggle to understand the dynamics of the carved turn, the villaination of counter. I've got news for you guys, it's still alive and well, and being used by the worlds best skiers. Utilization of counter in the pelvis is crucial for balance, establishing a strong big toe side edge engagement, and obtaining the high edge angles associated with high level skiing.

Rusty, just how are you achieving high edge angles if not by moving CM further inside. Leaving CM over feet and tipping lower legs can work for teaching people with poor balance skills to carve without having to move their CM out of their comfort zone, but it puts undue stress on the knee ligaments and limits the edge angle that can be achieve, although that is probably a good thing because the high forces created by high edge angles would rip apart knees in these contorted positions.

KEE-TOV SAYS:
Fastman, great comments in this thread, but with any drill, especially on dry-land, it is hard to mimic the completely correct ski movement.

The words I am concerned about is "...step slightly forward with the left foot...."

This may lead to many different bad habits...1 - shuffling feet,
2 - lead change caused by moving of the feet rather than pelvic position related to the hill, 3 - opening up of the new uphill ankle driving you into the bck seat, 4 - rotation of the upper body.

FASTMAN:
Good comment Kee-Tov. Your right in how it is hard to mimic completely ski movements in the living room. You have pointed out one of the difficulties of this exercise.

In the exercise the forward step puts the foot in the position it would eventually end up in after the full edge engagement/CM movement/countering process has taken place in actual skiing and the ski is on its highest edge angle. The countering of the hip is a gradual process that moves in harmony with the movement of the CM inside and the increase in edge angle. The foot moves forward in subservience to and in harmony with those movements. On snow the foot is just the passenger, the pelvis/CM is the driver.

It would be to difficult to simulate the subservient foot movement in the indoor exercise so I just have the student do the step first then catch up with the rest of the movements. As you say it is not perfect, but it does give the student a good prep for the movements we will be seeking on snow.

KEE-TOV SAYS:
If we go with the thought of the inside ski is the driving/steering ski and the new outside is the support ski, can you still get the same "feel" by placing a towel(slippery surface) under the outside half(little toeside) of each foot. As you roll your foot, the inside ski will be on a slippery surface, so it can slide(not step) forward when the pelvis rotates.When you enter your "new" turn, you will be skiing forward down the hallway!!! You will also feel the CM moving forward. Still not a cure-all of developing baad habits. Nothing is perfect.

FASTMAN:
Hey Kee-Tov, that's not a bad idea. I don't think it work to have the towel under the outside foot when leaning against the wall because the foot needs to support the pressure on a stable base and it would just be slipping out on us, but under the inside foot perhaps it would allow us to eliminate the preparatory step and experience the subservient movement in the foot as counter is introduced. I'll give that a try. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

The hallway skiing sounds like fun and seems to simulate the movement sequence, the only problem is not being able to feel the concentration of pressure in the outside ski.
Quote:
 Originally posted by FastMan:  You are now in a position to begin the new turn. With weight still on your right foot step slightly forward with the left foot as you simultaneously counter (rotate it right) your pelvis and drop it left into the new turn.
Well...you didn't say counter-rotate, however, you did say "rotate it right". My purpose is not to pick apart your use of words.

Counter is certainly alive in skiing as is counter rotation. Current parlance for "counter" is "separation"

I'm simply suggesting counter rotation accompanying any attempt to carve a turn is often counter productive.

I don't see anything I've said that should have led you to get the idea I don't believe the c.o.m does not move inside any turn given certain parameters. I may be old and ski fairly slowly, however, every once in a while I get up to five or six miles an hour and really "lay em over".

I just work hard in all my turns to build movements from my feet up. I work hard to not move my c.o.m in an artificial manner to the inside of any turn mandating my feet catch up with additional edge angles.

Counter or counter rotation may be alive and well however I would argue that it is to a great degree vestigial, harkening back to an era when straight skis required such movements.

It may not be dead, however, I don't think most people would advocate counter-rotation as being something we build into the formula for a carved turn.
[quote]Originally posted by Rusty Guy:
RUSTY SAYS:
I heard Burt Skall (SSD @ Copper& PSIA-RM examiner) say this winter, "if your inside foot is moving forward to start a turn it isn't tipping".

As an aside I think this is a great time to point out another feeling that I have. Any attempt to transfer weight to the new outside ski, creation of a stance foot, and/or lightening the inside foot creates an environment ripe for rotary movements with the inside foot. I see multitudes of people with all their weight "transferred" to the outside ski and their inside foot kind of starts wandering and rotating. There isn't anything wrong with inside foot steering, unless you're trying to carve a turn.

FASTMAN:
Rusty, in this turn transition technique the inside ski in not the catalyst that starts the kinetic chain of events that creates a turn. In this technique the extension of the uphill (new outside) ski is the trigger that starts the chain and the pendulum motions of the pelvis drives the continuation of the process. The inside foot/ski plays only a subservient role in this technique.

As far as disruptive movements of the downhill (new inside) ski after pressure transfer to the uphill (new outside) ski, understand that the new inside ski will have little pressure on it so any non productive movements would serve little purpose and produce limited negative effects. If the instructor introduces the technique to the student at the proper time in his development, it's introduced in the proper manner, and the instructor focuses on refining the core movement sequence of the technique, the subservient nature of the inside foot will allow this concern to pretty much take care of itself and make it a non issue.

RUSTY SAYS:
I'm simply suggesting counter rotation accompanying any attempt to carve a turn is often counter productive.

FASTMAN:
That depends on the amount of counter being employed for the degree of edge present. Pelvis countering should be present in all carved turns, but as I said before the amount is in direct harmony with the degree of edge. In every carved turn there should be a progressive application of edge from low to high. Mirroring that progression in edge application is the progression in pelvic counter. At slow speeds and low edge heights a skier can get away with utilizing no counter and display limited negative effects, and over application of counter can be counter productive. But as speeds grow, edges get higher, and forces grow counter becomes crucial and the problems resulting from not employing it are substantial.

RUSTY SAYS:
Counter or counter rotation may be alive and well however I would argue that it is to a great degree vestigial, harkening back to an era when straight skis required such movements.

FASTMAN:
Actually Rusty, counter is more necessary with shapes. As I have said pelvic counter is a movement we employ in unison with inside movement of the hip and increase in degree of edge. In the days of straights we were not to employ the pervasive use of straight leg, CM inside body positions we can now because the side cut of the skis would only produce the forces necessary to balance in those positions at very high speeds. In most cases at normal speeds we had to supplement with knee angulation to keep the CM close enough to the feet to keep us in balance. Knee angulation tends to rotate the pelvis.

RUSTY SAYS:
It may not be dead, however, I don't think most people would advocate counter-rotation as being something we build into the formula for a carved turn.

FASTMAN:
Unfortunately Rusty, this statement is all too true. In the thread I started called "Death of the shaped ski" I tried to spur a conversation on some of the core technical cornerstones that are suffering the fate of "baby being thrown out with the bath water" as a result of the current desire to create a new school teaching models that disassociate with the old ones.

This is one of the casualties of that drive. All one has to do is take a close look at current WC racing tapes to see that it is still a cornerstone of high level skiing, and therefore if it is our desire to produce high level skiers it is our obligation to introduce them to this important element of a carved turn.