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Critique a drill

post #1 of 61
Thread Starter 
This is a simple drill with an accompanying couple of questions.

You are standing on a traverse on a groomed green or blue groomer. The run is empty, and plenty wide, and you have a group of intermediates. Your left ski is uphill your right ski downhill. I won't say how you explain, market, or package the drill, however, here it is. You pick up all of, or the tail of your right ski, slide across the slope on a traverse on your left/uphill ski, and while balanced on the left ski begin a turn to the right with the right ski partially or completely off the snow. For the more advanced skier the right ski is in the air , for the less advanced the right ski tip is on the snow. The left ski becomes the outside ski during the course of the turn to the right. No tricks to the scenario

In a word....good drill or bad drill?

Describe the pros and cons.

What are the biomechanics of this turn in the event the right ski is in the air throughout the entire process? What are the forces at work making the skier turn?

[ April 22, 2003, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: Rusty Guy ]
post #2 of 61
Ok, I'll give it a stab.

Pros,

It's a great balance exercise, if you start with tail up only it forces the skier to be against the tongue of the boot and more "forward" Not having boot/shin contact makes this exercise very tough.

If taught explicitly with out rotary, it teaches the student to "trust their skis" to come around to turn and to allow gravity to assist the turn. This requires the student to "Flatten" the ski to seek the fall line.

It teaches foot to foot balance and a complete "weight shift"

Cons,

Depending on what skills are lacking this can lead to more bad habits.
ie: picking up of the inside ski to turn. (although most pick up the front of the ski)

If you are trying to teach edging skills, this exercise can lead to a student to let the ski go flat and "force the ski" to turn using rotary. (try javlin turns to move the hip to the correct position)

for a non-athletic overweight person, lifting one ski (supporting all their weight on one foot) might be close to impossible)

It's a scary exercise for timid skiers

Expect lots of falls!

Summary,

It can be a good or bad exercise. A lot depends on your students and the situation. I use this exercise and it's in my bag of tricks but it's never an "only choice"

The mechanics?
If done correctly, the CM should move down the hill, while the ski flattens. The ski should/will seek the fall line and begin moving down the hill, catching up with the skier.(this is where the student falls over if they don't flatten the ski) The edge should then begin to engage and with light steering, and edging, the natural curve/radius of the ski should complete the turn. It teaches edge and pressure control. It also teaches patience and trust. Balance needs to be centered or even a little forward to work correctly and hopefully the student will find this balance when you get them to "move" down the hill.
post #3 of 61
Oh Yeah, depending on how the exercise is presented it can lead to "sequential movements" and we want to teach simultanous movements. so be careful. In order to get the ski on edge I have had some students try to move the right ski (in the context of the way this was presented) out in order to get the CM moving down the hill or (into the left ski to start the turning) then a strong rotary movement with the left leg to get the ski turning.

So if this is part of the problem in the student's skiing already, you don't want to use this exercise.

[ April 22, 2003, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: dchan ]
post #4 of 61
Thread Starter 
dchan,

A great response and a well thought response. This is precisely why I spend so much time here. I want to wait a day or two to see where this goes and I'll respond. What you have written has already helped me as a teacher.

I will say this much. I'm impressed by your level of understanding. I know you give a good lesson!
post #5 of 61
I smell an HH Parlor trick! Howz the CPM going Rusty? I too will watch the bait catch fish. Nice analysis Dchan!

[ April 22, 2003, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Robin ]
post #6 of 61
Thread Starter 
Robin...You sly dog....I almost signed the quiz involving a spider and a fly.

The machine and accompanying leg are fine.

My wife is getting sick of this tune;

You've painted up your lips and rolled and curled your tinted hair,
Ruby are you contemplating going out somewhere?
The shadows on the wall tell me the sun is going down,
Oh Ruby, don't take your love to town.

It wasn't me that started that old crazy Asian war,
But I was proud to go and do my patriotic chore,
And yes, it's true that I'm not the man I used to be,
Oh Ruby, I still need some company.

It's hard to love a man whose legs are bent and paralyzed,
And the wants and needs of a woman your age really I realize,
But it won't be long, I've heard them say, until I'm not around,
Oh Ruby, don't take your love to town.

She's leaving now cause I just heard the slamming of the door,
The way I know I heard its slams one hundred times before,
And if I could move I'd get my gun and put her in the ground,
Oh Ruby, don't take your love to town.

Oh Ruby, for God's sake, turn around

[ April 22, 2003, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: Rusty Guy ]
post #7 of 61
Rusty
The way I picture this it seems like there is too much rotary motion involved (required?). I like to do drills that start the turn from a straight run with a minimum of rotary motion to intiate the turn. I not sure I really like where the CM is when starting this turn. Hopefully this doesn't leave your students with the habit of starting/ending the turn with weight on the uphill ski.

Your drill is also the easy turn when skiing with one ski. I had a bunch of 10-11 year olds skiing on one ski the other day and this turn was really easy for them. However, starting the turn from an inside edge ski traverse to the outside edge is much harder.
post #8 of 61
nice comments dchan...you're level 3 should be a breeze when it gets here.

I will list my comments as "pros" because with a good movement analysis and intro, this drill will help you spot potential movement problems.

Does the skier stand up(moving weight uphill) in order to control the flatten of the ski?

Does the skier roll the flexed left knee to flatten the ski, but doesn't extend it?

Do movements follow a simultaneous rather than a sequencial flow?

Is there uphill rotation to maintain the left ski traverse? This can be seen if you pick up and then place back on the snow the right ski. Only the right leg should be moving. Work on fore/aft balance and "big toe/little toe pressure".

I love this drill because of the movement that can be seen.
post #9 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by Rusty Guy:

What are the biomechanics of this turn in the event the right ski is in the air throughout the entire process? What are the forces at work making the skier turn?[/QB]
==========================================

As the right ski is entirely in the air steering is theoretically impossible (there must be two skis on the ground to steer, so say the professors) which limits the possibilities to turning the ski by carving, rotation, pivoting, or any combination depending on the desired purpose of the drill..

All drills are good drills and serve some usefulness. This one could be used for numerous purposes depending on the variation you choose.

[ April 22, 2003, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: FastMan ]
post #10 of 61
Rusty-
As I (think I) understand the drill, it's pretty much what we did in the last clinic I attended. We called them Step Ups (or Outs) since no other name was given them by the coach. The focus was sending your body out and down the hill to initiate the turn and trusting your outside ski to come around without making it.

At any rate, here's pretty much how it went for us:
- Start in a traverse
- Step to the uphill ski, with the downhill ski unweighted
- Sent the body out and down the hill
- After the ski comes around, step to the uphill ski and repeat.

We tried to link as many of these as we could down a fairly steep, groomed slope.

Definitely a good exercise for committing the body to the turn, since it's pretty hard to turn when the body is moving uphill. The downside as I saw it was a clear emphasis on lifting and one-ski dominance. However, depending on how the information is presented, it can be effective withing the context of the drill.
post #11 of 61
Well - i'm just the student....but...

Yes did lots of them & the other one(on other ski)...

From memory it was when instructors were trying to get me out of 'park & ride' stage & also when they wanted more body commitment down the hill.... & more use of BOTH edges

Seems they worked - everyone insists my skiing is much better & I don't have to do them these days....
post #12 of 61
I have the impression that there is leg rotation in this drill, in tipping the ski down teh hill, you have to turn it first?
post #13 of 61
Thread Starter 
Just for clarification, the drill is started perpendicular to the gravity line facing to the skiers left. The right (downhill/old outide/new inside) ski is lifted off the ground, a traverse to the left continues and then a slow gradual turn is completed to the right, all while standing on the left ski.
post #14 of 61
I'm still getting the left leg rotating to turn that ski down into the fall line!
post #15 of 61
Thread Starter 
Ant,

Humor me.....how does that happen initially and then how does it stop happening?
post #16 of 61
Well, I guess they could roll their left foot onto the inside edge and wait for the sidecut to bring them round, assuming they were on shaped skis, but it'd be quite a leap of faith and quite a trick to hold their balance given that they'd be committing their body down teh hill.
If it was me on that uphill ski, I'd be rotating the leg to start the turn happening down the fall line before rolling onto that inside edge.
post #17 of 61
A great drill. For either presenting a point, or leading/guiding to a discovery.

First I'd suggest for lower end skiers working more from the falline on flatter terrain, for higher end, across falline on tougher terrain.

That said.

If turn is to be attempted with rotary, if will have to come from the top down. The mass of the upper body is the only avaliable leverage (no arm waving please). Rotation of that mass, blocked/transfered with abs/gluts to the one leg could work if ski is first released off edge by the foot. But this should be a discovery in inefficiency. Maybe exposure of a rotary habit, or exposure of tendancy to step or stem to new big toe edge that is blocked by this set-up.

A discovery of efficiency would be in how much can be accomplished by simply rolling/tipping the right foot (the one in the air) in the direction of intended turn. Bio-mec-wise the movement of inverting that right foot will ripple up the K-chain, pulling pelvis and CM slightly toward falline, ripple down the left stance leg, resulting in that ski first flattening, allowing it to seek the falline. This might be it for a lower end skier, but for a high end skier, if rolling/tipping effort of right foot is continious, there would follow a distinct edge change, engagement, and progressivly built pressure as edge angle increases and tthe skis technology powers up.

Again this could be led, hinted, baited, or presented in several ways to accomplish a variety of goals.

Try it any which way you can....


[ April 23, 2003, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: Arcmeister ]
post #18 of 61
Thread Starter 
Arc,

Great response....thanks
post #19 of 61
Quote:
A discovery of efficiency would be in how much can be accomplished by simply rolling/tipping the right foot (the one in the air) in the direction of intended turn
This sounds very much like a "phantom foot" or "phantom edge" exercise. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
post #20 of 61
Some might call it that.

A fine example of something that represents the purest of the body genius at work, existing for eons in obscurity, but with absolute purity. And then it obtains different names from any of the different perspectives from which it is observed or used and it then conjures more discussion about what you call it than what it really is, or could be.

It is kinda like G.O.D. in that regard.

post #21 of 61
Arc,

I know. Just making a comment. I had heard of your description long before I heard of the "phantom edge" It's just kind of funny how someone comes up with some fancy name for something and then claims to have invented the move and actually copyrights the name and move. just like the wedge being called a LSM. :
post #22 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by dchan:

It's just kind of funny how someone comes up with some fancy name for something and then claims to have invented the move and actually copyrights the name and move. just like the wedge being called a LSM. : [/QB]
=========================

[img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] Terminology disguised as innovation. Now class, can we all say weighted release? :
post #23 of 61
I thought Al Gore invented it.
post #24 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by Rusty Guy:
... the drill is started perpendicular to the gravity line facing to the skiers left. The right (downhill/old outide/new inside) ski is lifted off the ground, a traverse to the left continues and then a slow gradual turn is completed to the right, all while standing on the left ski.
I did a Level 3 exam (in the East)this year, and anyone who used any variation of this drill failed. Any lifting of the dowhill ski or deliberate weight transfer to the uphill ski was interpreted as "moving back up the hill," and violates the principle of moving the center of mass down the hill at all times.
On the other hand, we also did that drill in a PSIA-RM steep terrain clinic this year. I think the difference is that, on steep terrain, it really is necessary to pressure the uphill ski before releasing the downhill ski. Western examiners seem much more open to this drill, probably because of the need to deal with genuinely steep terrain in the Rockies.

John
post #25 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Arcmeister:

A discovery of efficiency would be in how much can be accomplished by simply rolling/tipping the right foot (the one in the air) in the direction of intended turn. Bio-mec-wise the movement of inverting that right foot will ripple up the K-chain, pulling pelvis and CM slightly toward falline, ripple down the left stance leg, resulting in that ski first flattening, allowing it to seek the falline.
Arc,

No tricks or PMTS bashing here. I'm learning a great deal here via all the responses.

Why create, for lack of a better term, a kinetic loop? You desribe the movement originating in the right foot via inversion, the movement eventually pulling the pelvis and cm, and then flowing down the left leg.

Why not just pronate the left foot?
post #26 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by Rusty Guy:

Why create, for lack of a better term, a kinetic loop? You desribe the movement originating in the right foot via inversion, the movement eventually pulling the pelvis and cm, and then flowing down the left leg.

Why not just pronate the left foot?
The turn needs to be initiated from the right (outside or downhill) foot to learn the movement pattern and sequence needed for edge release. The key is to learn to release the edge of the outside ski before pressuring the inside ski. The inversion of the right foot releases the edge, allowing that foot to turn downhill. If you do that, the left foot will follow, creating a simultaneous edge change.
If you begin the turn with pronation of the left (inside or uphill) foot, the right foot can maintain pressure and edge engagement. This is the typical wedge christie, and usually leads to the skier picking up his right ski to get it out of the way.
In this drill, initiating the turn with the ski which is actually off the snow leads to turn initiation by inside ski edge release and inside ski steering, rather than from weight transfer to the new outside ski. Tipping the inside foot also leads to a more active inside leg, which is one of the keys to contemporary dynamic skiing.

John

[ April 24, 2003, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: John Dowling ]
post #27 of 61
Quote:
The inversion of the right foot releases the edge, allowing that foot to turn downhill. If you do that, the left foot will follow, creating a simultaneous edge change.
This movement pattern is actually a sequential movement not simultaneous. But it works for some students to create that "simultaneous edge change" some of the students I used this on created new problems. Because of stance or balance issues it has caused a very sequential move of right leg then left leg, sometimes with odd concequences. Usually it was just "falling over"

Like I mentioned earlier, Depending on what the situation and needs that are present, this exercise could be helpful or problem creator.

The fact that the eastern examiners failed anyone who used this exercise might not have only been that it's an "uphill movement" but more that in the situation given, it was not a good exercise or there were many much better movement exercises.

Sometimes you have to dig into that bag of tricks to get a specific idea across because the one you are using just is not clicking for your student. My guess is that in an exam situation, if you used this exercise because you felt it was the best for the student, and were able to back it up with a good explaination why it was better than others in your bag of tricks, the examiner might have said OK. Especially if you did other exercises and they did not work so this was an exercise you "fell back on" rather than started with.

The learning partnership and relationship you create with your student may require "stepping out of bounds" but you should be able to display and explain the reason you are coloring out side the lines so to speak.
post #28 of 61
Interesting bent on this topic. The simultaneous vs sequential thing. I, for the record think both are valid and critical movement patterns.

However, simultaneous patterns are sometimes 'more advanced' so to speak. Sequential ones can be easier to learn and be a setup for developing simultaneous ones. Try looking at how tasks can be used to teach sequential movements, yet relate to and develop simultaneous movements.

Careful of branding any general field of movements as undesireable in relation to another, even though simultaneous movements dominate the direction of current technique, seq. movements are still valid, appropriate and part of overall skiing.
post #29 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by Roto:
Interesting bent on this topic. The simultaneous vs sequential thing. I, for the record think both are valid and critical movement patterns.

However, simultaneous patterns are sometimes 'more advanced' so to speak. Sequential ones can be easier to learn and be a setup for developing simultaneous ones. Try looking at how tasks can be used to teach sequential movements, yet relate to and develop simultaneous movements.

Careful of branding any general field of movements as undesireable in relation to another, even though simultaneous movements dominate the direction of current technique, seq. movements are still valid, appropriate and part of overall skiing.
I agree. The exercise and most exercises have their place. It's how you apply them to the lacking skill identified in the MA of a skier that makes all the difference.
post #30 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by dchan:
Oh Yeah, depending on how the exercise is presented it can lead to "sequential movements" and we want to teach simultanous movements. so be careful.
In relation to this expression I just wanted to point out that there is a link between Seq. & sim. and that one can be used to develop the other

[ April 24, 2003, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Roto ]
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