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I'm new to this msg board..where is the original thread for skiing a slow line fast? - Page 2

post #31 of 60
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PhysicsMan:
I'm starting to get worried that SilverSpringSusan (or whatever her handle is) lost the URL of Epic and never got to see 28 (at present count) warm welcomes and technical info?

Maybe its all my fault - she saw my mention of fog shrouded algae to Dr. Go and ran as fast as she could in the other direction

Are you around, Susan?

Tom / PM
Tom/PM as he begs for SOMEONE to talk to (please let it be a FEMALE, this time, Tom/PM says to himself)

Hey PhysicsMan, did I ever tell you about my theory on SNOWMAX and Electrolites?

It is better than the common variety bugs you find in POND SCUM.
(that was attractive, Dr. thinks to himself)

There are some that say these little creatures might may help you ski a SLOW line FAST! (well that was a bit closer to TOPIC, the Dr. Muses, then thinks to himself that this bit of Sophmoric humor should bring the EpicSki.Com GANG closer to waters that are of their ilk)

For those who need CLEARITY on this post and DO not have a Dictionary nor knowlege of what the HECK SNOW MAX is let me know.

Sorry about that AppleSusan, we have mostly PC users here and well as WE know. THEY ARE CRETINS!

Yes I would say quite CRETINOUS, Bob Barnes, the one from COLORADO is the only exception. You must know that by now! (OH but beware there are so many BOB BARNESE out there you know. BE SURE YOU ARE TALKING TO THE RIGHT BOB!)

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 02, 2001 07:56 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Dr.GO ]</font>
post #32 of 60
Fast line fast example-

I did this as a regretable choice (split second too late)i.e. wasn't ready for it, ability-wise:

At Mt. Hood Meadows there's a run called the Elevator. This was 20 years ago before things were better developed. I just got off the lift and saw a guy go off the edge of elevator. There was a class waiting there for their instructor. They ooed and ahh'd. So I thought, "Hehehe! Why not?" I took a good running start, much further back than the first guy, went past the class and off the "cliff". As I lifted off I heard many voices. Some were going "Oooooo! Ahhhh! The other voice was saying, "Why the hell did I do this?!" It was the steepest line I had ever been on up to that time; snow was heavy (Cascade cement). Even though I had Dynamic VR 27's I couldn't turn. Pawing through the fog of terror in my brain I saw that the wide snow field funneled into a narrow trail. to aim for that trail I step turned bit by bit to aim for it. I hit the trail going about 600 miles an hour.(Well, that's what my brain's speedometer told me.)(Very acurate, ya know) The trail was so narrow you could hold your arms out sideways and hit small trees. many short and quick checking turns later I finally came to a stop off the side and stood there shaking.

Now there's the fast line fast! OK! OK! So it wasn't really on purpose. Details, details! My fear was greater than 99% of anyone else's fear on the mountain!

[But of course... If I were to relate the story at the lodge today, over margaritas, It would start out... "There I was, on top of elevator. Alberto Tomba cahllenged me to an elevator run! We both took off! - the rest is history... revisioinist history]
post #33 of 60

1) an ice-nucleating protein derived from naturally occurring bacteria
B) what DR GO calls his dog
3) the highest recorded snow depth at your favorite ski area


<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 02, 2001 10:27 AM: Message edited 1 time, by BillA ]</font>
post #34 of 60
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BillA:

1) an ice-nucleating protein derived from naturally occurring bacteria
B) what DR GO calls his dog
3) the highest recorded snow depth at your favorite ski area


IT would BE some one from a STATE where we HAVE TO MAKE SNOW TO EXSIST!

You have been in front of the SNO GUN too long however.


heheeh just a poke, So since you know about the stuff. Do you think it may allow you to SKI a SLOW line FAST?

A) If you drink it!
B) Cause the stuff makes more ICE than anything else!

Thanks for palying, you WIN a free down load of Ott's terrific PICTURES which are much in demand as you have already noticed!

(Contact OTT for details)
post #35 of 60
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr.GO:
...please let it be a FEMALE, this time, Tom/PM says to himself...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, what I was *really* saying to myself was, "...please let it be anyone but Dr. GO, this time...".

In any case, Friends, Romans, Countrymen: I appeal to your logic and common sense. I put it to a vote. Who would *YOU* you rather talk to, Dr. GO, or some cute gal? (Sorry, Epicski ladies are not eligible to vote on this one.)

Exhibit #1:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr.GO:
Hey PhysicsMan, did I ever tell you about my theory on SNOWMAX and Electrolites?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I rest my case.

Tom / PM

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 02, 2001 03:50 PM: Message edited 3 times, by PhysicsMan ]</font>
post #36 of 60
PhsyicsMan, AKA TOM/PM,

How do you know that Dr.GO is not a woman? (Oh I am sorry, "some cute GAL?")

Your sexist remarks are making you a target!

Women CAN be doctors YOU KNOW!

Besides AppleSusan Might be some cute guy.

(but that would make it ALL right then, wouldn't it!)

JUST A BIT OF HUMOR! Don't get PHOBIC on us!

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 02, 2001 04:01 PM: Message edited 2 times, by Dr.GO ]</font>
post #37 of 60
Oh NO, Dr. GO, I can't stand all these gender benders, but I will grant you this, if the photo in your profile is any hint, you're pretty damned cute yourself.

Humm, maybe a bit too willing for my tastes, tho.


Tom / PM

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 02, 2001 04:10 PM: Message edited 2 times, by PhysicsMan ]</font>
post #38 of 60

post #39 of 60
Don't get fresh, now.
post #40 of 60
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr.GO:
PhsyicsMan, AKA TOM/PM,
How do you know that Dr.GO is not a woman? ...

Well, in http://www.epicski.com/cgi-bin/ultim...c&f=4&t=000685

you said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr.GO:
...I weigh 245 lbs and I am 6'5. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If 'youze a woman, I'z running the other way as fast as my feets can carry me.

In fact, now that I think of it, just so you can't accuse me of being sexist again (aka, MCP for the old timers), even if you aren't a woman, I'm still running the other way.

LOL, big guy! Go to bed!

Tom / PM

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 02, 2001 09:15 PM: Message edited 1 time, by PhysicsMan ]</font>
post #41 of 60
Tom / PM

AppleSusan, poor lady, logs on once to get a question answered and she gets all this STUFF

Hope she bought Bobs Book!

Cause, she was smart enough NOT to buy this STUFF!

You are still AWFULY Gullable!
post #42 of 60
Also, Go you mentioned your wife. But come to think of it, I teach in cambridge, and, well ya can never tell.
MR ducks
Mr not
(texas joke!}
Anyway neither of you are sexist! Would have heard from me by now if you were!
post #43 of 60
OK Tom, I just tuned in after working on my conference presentation (sorry you're not going to make it). Now, Dr. Go, my yellow lab (aptly named Jackson where we usually long to be) wants to know if either you or your dog are available. Another thought I had is that those large webbed paws may be the reason you're always hitting the Cap Lock!
post #44 of 60
SLOW down now.

D'Artagnion, is all male!

If you know Labs, two males will NOT get along!

He is an ALPHA dog! BIG TIME!

Loves his family!

My yellow Lab just came in the office to tell me she must go out for a minuet!
post #45 of 60
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr.GO:
...poor lady, logs on once to get a question answered and she gets all this STUFF

Hey, around here, everybody's got the ichies to go skiing, but it still feels like September. A guy's gotta do something to pass the time till the snow comes (if it ever does).

LisaM - Thanks for the kind words. Maybe someday our families will get a chance to hook up on the hill. I can tell you this right now - given your occupation, my daughter would probably glom on to you instantly. She's quite athletic, and is intensely interested in adult women athletes (especially pros).


Tom / PM
post #46 of 60
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Si:
OK Tom, I just tuned in after working on my conference presentation (sorry you're not going to make it). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is doubly frustrating not to be going since we were supposed to get some Si wafers for the project back from one of the foundries, and there has been a delay of a several days, so I probably could have zipped out to whistler without delaying anything back here - arghhhh!

FYI, I had a pair of 10ex's on order at one of the ski shops out there (good pre-Thanksgiving price plus good exchange rate). When I decided not to go, I had them ship them here. FWIW, when I spoke to them a few days ago, they said that the high alpine conditions were *superb*.

Have fun on the slopes & knock 'em dead in your workshop.

Tom / PM
post #47 of 60
Sounds good, PM!

I figured it out! I figured it out!

Apple Susan is really AC making sure we all know how to use the search feature!

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 02, 2001 10:02 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Lisamarie ]</font>
post #48 of 60
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr.GO:
...My yellow Lab just came in the office to tell me she must go out for a minuet!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HEY, you can't pull *my* leg again. I know it as a fact that Labs prefer more modern forms of dancing.

Tom / PM

PS - In case I'm wrong, here's a URL for him: http://www.bathminuetcompany.freeserve.co.uk/
post #49 of 60

How did you get THAT one?


I have a friend who has a small Hotel in Bath. Norbert Rodamacker, he was GM at the NY Hilton for many years. Retired with his own place in Bath.


IF this is TRUE You gotta come clean!

Great TROLL!

I attempted to get as many BOLD type stuff as possible as it DRIVES ROTO CRAZY. Is there any other TYPE affects that I can use for his benifit?

Pssst, LM is Terrapin a simular excersice? Well for AC to see who is COOL and who is being BAD?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 03, 2001 06:42 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Dr.GO ]</font>
post #50 of 60
Thread Starter 
Huh. I post a "simple" question and leave you guys alone for a couple of days look what happens.

thanks to all of you who welcomed me. Thanks for the URLs for the slow line fast question.

BB's question about going straight down the hill....serious question?

So ... my thoughts on straight down the hill. FIrst reaction is that the skier would pick up speed and keep picking up speed until ...

But then I decided that the speed of the person going straight down the hill will depend on what the snow was like (I've been stopped short by deep heavy snow), what kind of skis were being used, whether the slope went straight down or whether there were ups and downs....

When a bunch of us are on cat tracks (moving from one slope to another), I seem to pass most people as we all just go "straight down the slope". I try not to be rude but it is hard to keep slowing down on those itty bitty tracks.

My life partner says it's because I weigh more than he does (nice guy huh).

back to ski-slow-line-fast --> what I think I am hearing is
control speed through turn shape,
constant rate of speed rather than braking movements

So the question would be (to bring in one of your other threads): would a purely skidded series of turns ... beautiful turn shapes, no change in speed, no big braking movements ... would that also be a slow-line-fast?

Susan (Applegate)
post #51 of 60
Thread Starter 
So ... ignore my last post where I "clarify" ski-slow-line-fast... I finally read enough of the original (Sept) thread to get what was being discussed.

post #52 of 60
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado:
I have a question for anyone: What happens to your speed if you just go straight (no turns)?

Just curious.... (What? You think it's a trick question?)

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

Guess I'll have to prime the pump a little (I'm cheating-Bob did this in a clinic last week).

Does "straight" means downhill?
Take it from there.
post #53 of 60
Hi AppleSusan--glad to see you're still around!

NOW...on to the subject of the Slow Line Fast....

Yes, it was a serious question. And I thank you for taking the time to answer it. But your answer revealed something VERY important and relevant to skiing. (It WAS a trick question, and you, dear Apple, fell for it!)

If you'd care to join me in a little excursion "out of the box," please read on....

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What happens to your speed if you just go straight (no turns)? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Read my question closely. I specifically and carefully did NOT ask what happens if you go "straight downhill"! I simply asked what happens to your speed if you go STRAIGHT. There is an enormous difference--I never specified which direction. That was an assumption that you made, an indicator of a deeply held "paradigm" (sorry for the overused word) that I suspect governs many of your movements in skiing.

AppleSusan, please don't think I'm picking on you here--I'll bet that just about everyone else made the same assumption. I asked the same question to a bunch of instructors the other day, and with only one exception, got answers based on the same assumption. Only one instructor suggested the important truth--that it matters what direction I'm going, and that downhill is only one possibility!

What I'm getting at here is that most of us associate "turning" with slowing down, and going straight with going fast. This is an unfortunate assumption, and one of the biggest causes of getting stuck in the "intermediate rut." I contend that truly great turns will only happen when we completely disassociate turning from speed control, and think of turns as DIRECTION CONTROL movements. It is not the TURN that slows us down, it is the direction that the turn makes us go.

BRAKING, of course, also slows us down. Because so many of us use them to control speed, most of what we call "turns" are really braking activities, with movement patterns directly opposed to the turning movements of experts (exemplified by top racers--who certainly don't turn "to slow down"!).

If you stop on the hill, your skis will probably point across the hill, right? If you were to go straight from there, you would not gain speed, beyond what you could push with your poles. Indeed, to gain speed, you would have to turn! You would have to turn downhill. So it is a completely reasonable statement to say that "going straight will slow you down, and turning will cause you to gain speed." It all depends on the direction!

So the "slow line fast" idea means using turns to control line, not speed, and choosing a line that eliminates the NEED to control speed! It means seeking maximum glide, not scrubbing speed. It means seeking terminal velocity, on a line where terminal velocity is a speed we can live with--and enjoy!

Keep in mind that I have not really suggested skiing a "slow" line "fast," either. My actual statement is that good technique involves skiing a slow ENOUGH line as fast as you CAN--WHEN you can. If you want to ski faster, ski a faster line. If you want to ski slowly, ski a slow line. "Slow enough" does not mean "slow." And "fast as you can" does not necessarily mean "fast"! On a cat track, straight downhill may well be a "slow enough line."

And the "when you can" part of the question is also important. There are MANY situations where we need to hit the brakes. Sometimes gentle braking (intentional skidding/brushing) is appropriate. Sometimes we have to throw them sideways in a hurry. Good technique allows--and requires--mastering these "non-turning" movements too.

(I know you asked us to ignore this, but) you asked the question, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>would a purely skidded series of turns ... beautiful turn shapes, no change in speed, no big braking movements ... would that also be a slow-line-fast?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It could be great skiing, but it would not necessarily represent either a "slow enough line" or "as fast as you can." It MIGHT represent these things, depending on your skill level, among other things. But the important thing to remember is that the movements of "turning" (pure direction control) and the movements of "braking" are incompatible--they are exact opposites. This is somewhat over-simplified, but turns involve "pulling the inside tip into the turn." Braking involves "pushing the outside tail out of the turn." Pulling vs. pushing; inside vs. outside; tip vs. tail--polar opposites! The cleaner the turn, the more the skis glide and the less they control speed. The purer the braking, the more the skis skid--and thus sacrifice some control of line.

So many turns are compromises--and these compromises are sometimes necessary. Remember too that I did not say slow enough line with "pure carved turns"--I said only "as fast as you can." Many lines cannot be skied with pure carving, depending on equipment, skill, speed, turn size, fatigue level, even mood.

In summary, in no way am I suggesting that "pure carved turns" are the only "good technique." I am not at all suggesting that anyone should ski "fast." What it really comes down to is that good skiing involves "offensive" rather than "defensive" habits. Gliding, rather than riding the brakes. Mastery of both "direction control" AND "speed control" movements, and the ability to employ both, as well as the entire spectrum between them. But the best skiers invariably make the most of the mountain--they ski WITH the mountain, rather than against it. They PLAY with gravity, rather than FIGHTING it.

Turns do NOT slow you down (necessarily), nor does going straight make you go faster (necessarily)! Grasping this thought, and all it's ramifications, is key to thinking like an expert--which is the most important key to BECOMING an expert!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 03, 2001 05:05 PM: Message edited 2 times, by Bob Barnes/Colorado ]</font>
post #54 of 60
One of my favorite comments about ski turning is:

"Making turns to maintain a particular speed, as opposed to turning (braking movements included) to slow down"...

Nice to see you at Breck, Bob... too bad you had to stand around and talk so much with the rest of the "Captain Americas"...

It's O.K., a lot of them are favorite trainers of mine! But I hafta give some razz about those suits!
[img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

So, now you know who my "secret ski girl" is! Glad she made changes in her life, now we're grinning and turning together!
post #55 of 60
Hey SnowKarver--good to see you too. Yeah, I'll take the razzing--we did do our share of talking. My only defense is that the three days were not devoted to skiing or technique, but to teaching. We were exploring and experimenting with the new Rocky Mountain "Guest-Centered Teaching" model. This is the teaching model developed by Kim Peterson and the Winter Park Ski School, and I think it will be a great thing for us.

One of the precepts of the GCT model is to identify the needs of the students (nothing new there, but perhaps a new emphasis, and some new tools to help instructors accomplish it). Perhaps the biggest difference between a "clinic" for instructors or trainers, and a regular ski lesson, is that a training clinic usually involves some "institutional" or "organizational" needs, in addition to the individual needs and desires of the participants. In our case this weekend, the need to really get a handle on this new teaching model, as we roll it out for the first time, prevented us from making anywhere near as many turns as we would have liked! We spent quite a bit of time indoors, too.

Oh well--we did get in a few good runs. And we got a lot accomplished.

See you soon!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #56 of 60
Everything you just said, Bob reaffirms my belief that for me, the most truly dead end move {infinitely more dead end than the wedge} is the traverse.

The first time I learned it, it was being taught as a means of dealing with "scary" situations. I think that teaching the side slip at an earlier stage in training would be a better choice.
One of the problems {for me} with too much time spent in traverse, was that it gave me this nasty habit of keeping my uphill ski edged into the slope. This mad it hard to even learn the side slip.

Thanks for bringing this up again. One year later, it makes even more sense!

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 03, 2001 09:42 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Lisamarie ]</font>
post #57 of 60
Right on, LM! Traversing is a terrible habit. We tend to do it out of fear of turning downhill, and many people assume that "zig-zagging" is the way to control speed. But think about it....

You're standing still, skis across the hill. When you point the tips even slightly downhill, they start to move. And to gain speed. They gain speed all the way to the other side of the trail, when you have to slam on the brakes, make a "Z-turn," and start gaining speed again as you traverse across the hill again.

It is actually a much slower line to turn the skis smoothly downhill (gaining speed, of course), and steer them continuously in a nice smooth arc right back UP the hill. When you're ready--that is, when you are going slow enough that you want to GAIN speed--the turn is complete, and it's time to dive down the hill again. Because you WANT to gain speed (this is the "ski as fast as you can" part), you will enjoy the ride, rather than fighting it with the brakes on.

So the time to turn is when you want to go faster! Hardly the "conventional wisdom," eh?

Traversing may minimize the time we go downhill, but it doesn't ever take us UPhill! The key is to make ROUND turns, not corners, and not to stop turning and traverse, but to continue turning until it's time to go downhill again. Then go for it!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #58 of 60
Before I get barraged with the inevitable flames charging me with making arbitrary value judgements and defining "good skiing" as simply my preferred style, I will add this:

In some conditions, it is truly a matter of personal preference. I like the sensations of gliding much better than the sensations of skidding. But that's me--your mileage may vary, and any opinion of what is "good skiing" is a matter of taste.

The farther we get from "perfect" groomed snow, though, the more the advantages of "good technique"--gliding on the "slow line fast"--become clear. ANYTHING (almost) works fine on groomed snow. But ice, on one extreme, and heavy, inconsistent crud on the other, clearly separate good technique from bad. On ice, skis skid sideways all too easily, but it's hard to control them once we throw them into a skid. In crud, skis do not go sideways easily at all. So either of these extremes demand that the skis go the direction they're pointed, as much as possible. "Real snow" is where those "slow line fast" habits really pay off!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #59 of 60
I think this fits here.

I skied with this guy (the mystery skier) who told me that if I really wanted to get great in bumps, go practice making short turns on green runs. This guy was the smoothest bump skier I've ever seen.

HH is always telling me to go practice this or that on green runs.

In my comments about skiing deep snow, Eski said to go work on my primary movements on green runs.

So, I'll add it up to this. "Spend time on green runs to get great on black runs".
post #60 of 60
"If you want to ski the hard runs easy, ski the easy runs hard!"

--One of my favorite quotes, from instructor Marty Davenport, formerly of Keystone, now teaching in New Mexico.

But, of course, you've got to ski the hard runs too!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
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