New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Good Skiing is Good Skiing

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
Ok, forget all the stuff about western skiers being better at powder and eastern skiers being better at ice. After watching Tom Burch, Ric Reiter and Bob Barnes tackle the worst of eastern conditions at ETU, thereby putting us locals to shame, I realize that this is a fallacy.
After spending most of Saturday trying to figure out some "magic way" to ski on the blue stuff (ice, not trails), I had a memory of what Denny, a Sugarloaf instructor said about skiing Black Diamonds.
"Its less about magic tricks, and more about good skiing skills. Only now you need to be even more correct."

[ December 15, 2003, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: Lisamarie ]
post #2 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by Lisamarie:
Ok, forget all the stuff about western skiers being better at powder and eastern skiers being better at ice. After watching Tom Burch, Ric Reiter and Bob Barnes tackle the worst of eastern conditions at ETU, thereby putting us locals to shame, I realize that this is a fallacy.
I just want to point out that the converse of this is also true. I saw some *awesome* powder skiing at Stowe on Monday -- there were some skiers there who knew how to make 2+ feet of glop look easy. I hit (in more ways then one...) mid-thigh deep drifts on the edge of Hayride, and watched others glide past like there was nothing to it.

I knew what to do (thanks Tim!), just that these legs didn't want to do it!
post #3 of 28
Quote:
I realize that this is a fallacy.
Actually, a fallacy is a problem with an argument, not an assertion.

That west coast skiiers are better at powder is an ussported assertion not an argument.

Sorry for being anal, Im 4 days away from taking a logic final
post #4 of 28
Lisamarie, which "locals" did Tom, Ric, and Bob put to shame? Certainly not Dave Merriam or Stu Campbell.
post #5 of 28
Thread Starter 
No! The poor students!
post #6 of 28
Thread Starter 
But case in point. I'm sure that Dave or Stu could go west, and ski powder a lot better than a local who never developed a good set of basic skills. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #7 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by Lisamarie:
After watching Tom Burch, Ric Reiter and Bob Barnes tackle the worst of eastern conditions at ETU, thereby putting us locals to shame, I realize that this is a fallacy.
Quote:
Originally posted by David7:
Lisamarie, which "locals" did Tom, Ric, and Bob put to shame? Certainly not Dave Merriam or Stu Campbell.
Bob Barnes and company though might have put our coach Tim (one of the examiners at Stowe, so he should qualify as a local) to shame though. Tim fell! Oh wait, were we suppossed to not mention that? Oh well, he embarassed my group with the "thousand step turns" on the flattest piece of real estate around, so, like they say, paybacks are hell!

[img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]
post #8 of 28
I saw Bob fall too, so I guess they're about even.

[ December 16, 2003, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: epic ]
post #9 of 28
BOB FELL?????? He owes me a beer! [img]tongue.gif[/img] ------Wigs
post #10 of 28
a fall equalled a case of beer when I worked at Waterville Valley.



kiersten
post #11 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by kieli:
a fall equalled a case of beer when I worked at Waterville Valley.



kiersten
Doesn't this lead to staying below one's upper threshold? I know that we're joking around here, but this is one of those things that comes back from my youth when my racing coach told me, "If you fall, you deserve to break your leg." It was high school racing! He wanted me to put beartrap springs in my nice, elastic Look/Nevada turntable bindings! :

Is falling bad? :

I know it can be painful on the conditions it sounds like you had at the ETU, but that's not the point I'm making...

ssh
post #12 of 28
Nothing wrong w/ falling and the case of beer thing is silly. Show me a group of instructors who are afraid of falling and I'll show you a bunch who haven't progressed in years (or maybe they just haven't been sober all that time). Come to think of it, I may know some of those folks!
post #13 of 28
doooooooooooooods... the case of beer thing is just a fun, joking, commraderie kinda thing.

[img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

kiersten
post #14 of 28
This thread cracks me up .... who doesn't fall? I'd have to agree the whole beer or case of beers thing is all in good fun, and evens out in the end.

On another note though, I was skiing with Bob a couple of weeks ago and we did a little exercise where we tried to fall over, by really exaggerating our banking into a turn. It was amazingly difficult to fall over! (we managed to pull it off though )

hmmmm ... maybe Bob meant to fall at Stowe also ...
post #15 of 28
Thread Starter 
Actually, falling or not falling is not my criteria for good skiing. If good skiing was only about not falling, I'd be considered an expert! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

That being said, Tom, Bob and Ric could have fallen 30 times throughout the weekend, and they still looked a whole lot better than most of the people up on the mountain. For that matter, Pierre skis powder better than many of the non instructors I saw on the slopes in Utah. East or west, skill is simply skill.
post #16 of 28
I've often heard if you do not fall you are not pushing yourself hard enough. Fall = learning experience is what I was told.

While I often tell people that I am a "WEEBLE", it's not 100% accurate as those who skied with me Saturday at the ETU know. There are times that I do not fall at all, because as others have mentioned here, I am not challenging myself.

Then again, there are other times when I do fall in places where it makes no logical sense that I would. For instance, on a flat runout. I did that twice in one day at Pat's Peak a couple years ago. Once I was doing a 360 and reaching for my camera. The other time I was not paying much attention, standing totally upright with my poles crossed in an "x" behind me as I cruised along. The very next week I did the same thing at Attitash. My fall at Stowe was basically entering this type of terrain...I breathed a sigh of relief after the bumps and ...well you know the rest.

My advice for falling....don't fight it! After you fall try to laugh it off, it works sometimes.

[ December 17, 2003, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: skierteach ]
post #17 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by Lisamarie:
[QB]Actually, falling or not falling is not my criteria for good skiing. If good skiing was only about not falling, I'd be considered an expert! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
I had to post this here!


[ December 17, 2003, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: skierteach ]
post #18 of 28
Thread Starter 
Skierteach, we were posting at the same time!
You said:
"I've often heard if you do not fall you are not pushing yourself hard enough. Fall = learning experience is what I was told."

I agree, to an extent. But I think there's a point where people who fall frequently use that as an excuse. In many cases, their technique is just plain sloppy. Having seen you ski, that certainly does not apply to you.

There is something that I have become more aware of. Many women in particular need to improve their DEceleration skills. They are fine when they are at speed, but if someone or something unexpectantly gets in their way, BOOM, down they go. There have been studies that have linked women's proclivity towards ACL tears to poor decelration skills. Watching female skiers on the hill, even the ones who usually look pretty good, I can almost predict who will get injured by watching what they need to do when they suddenly have to slow down.
post #19 of 28
Quote:
Watching female skiers on the hill, even the ones who usually look pretty good, I can almost predict who will get injured by watching what they need to do when they suddenly have to slow down.
Oh, so you knew I was going to hit the cat track and catch an edge and fall thus hurting my head and my knee? I wish you had told me before it happened.

oops, sorry, I did not see the "not" in your statement
Quote:
Having seen you ski, that certainly does not apply to you.
so I added the wink!

[ December 17, 2003, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: skierteach ]
post #20 of 28
Thread Starter 
Nah! Your wipe out was sort of like the one I had at Fernie. I had just finished "surviving" a deep powder run, and was finally on skiable terrain. I yelled out to Mark, "THAT WAS SO SCAAAAAARRRRY!!" then BOOM, on the flat terrain.

The only difference was you fell after skiing a bump run covered with ice and rock!
post #21 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by Wigs:
BOB FELL?????? He owes me a beer! [img]tongue.gif[/img] ------Wigs
No way! We're more lenient around here - you got to tag 'em before they get up to deserve the beer. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Tom / PM
post #22 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by PhysicsMan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wigs:
BOB FELL?????? He owes me a beer! [img]tongue.gif[/img] ------Wigs
No way! We're more lenient around here - you got to tag 'em before they get up to deserve the beer. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Tom / PM
</font>[/quote]Tag-em? We bury them in a wall of snow! [img]tongue.gif[/img] -----Wigs
post #23 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by Lisamarie:

There is something that I have become more aware of. Many women in particular need to improve their DEceleration skills. They are fine when they are at speed, but if someone or something unexpectantly gets in their way, BOOM, down they go. There have been studies that have linked women's proclivity towards ACL tears to poor decelration skills. Watching female skiers on the hill, even the ones who usually look pretty good, I can almost predict who will get injured by watching what they need to do when they suddenly have to slow down.
hey LM

an exercise that I have practiced is the ability to "stick" a stop. it gives you amazing precision (ability to stop quickly and the ability to stop exactly where you want to stop).

deceleration is a "braking" move... and, I use the terrain features (whenever possible) instead of my muscles.

what I infer from this is that folks don't COMPLETE their turns properly. [img]smile.gif[/img]

kiersten
post #24 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by nealric:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I realize that this is a fallacy.
Actually, a fallacy is a problem with an argument, not an assertion.

That west coast skiiers are better at powder is an ussported assertion not an argument.
</font>[/quote]This, in itself, is a fallacy.
Your logic class seems to have restricted the meaning of fallacy beyond its actual meaning, which is more or less an untrue idea.
Back to school, Neal.
post #25 of 28
"A fallacy is an error in reasoning." Layman, Stephen, The Power Of Logic, McGraw Hill, 2002, 583. (my textbook)

A single assertion contains no reasing by itself, thefore, it cannot be a fallacy.

post #26 of 28
You get a good grade if you can figure out why your evidence still leaves you with a logical fallacy...
post #27 of 28
My argument is an appeal to authority. An appeal to authority can never be valid.

It is however, a strong argument because the truth of the premeses is more likely than not to lead ot the truth of the conclusion.

This contrasts to a valid argument where true premeses necessarily lead to the truth of the conclusion.

[ December 18, 2003, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: nealric ]
post #28 of 28
A few more things, now...
An appeal to authority can be valid, it just is not necessarily so.
Since your argument does not lead to the truth of the conclusion, can it still be termed 'strong'? And yes, obviously your argument is premised on a faulty source--your textbook, I guess, which shouldn't be used as a source for defining words.

I hope you're done with your final so you can escape from this logical reasoning that's clouding your thoughts! [img]smile.gif[/img]
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching