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I need some exercises to help me get onto my edges earlier - Page 3

post #61 of 85

Make your turns as if someone is trying to look at the brand symbol under the tip of your ski. Many photos of ski racers show exactly this.

post #62 of 85



 

50x50px-LS-Don_edited.jpg

So a side note here that I think is being overlooked. As the skis turn across the hill the effective slope angle lessens. So the skis and everything turning across the hill slows down. The torso and CoM will slow as well if they follow the skis across the hill. So it's the first two thirds of the turn that gravity acts as a motive force and accelerates everything. After that we're turning away from gravity and resisting it's pull. Conserving momentum through that last third even though we are turning across the hill means not slowing down either the feet or the body. If you're adding the body huck into the mix it's because the body has slowed down and even though it has a shorter path it lacks the momentum to carry it where it needs to go. It's much simpler to conserve the momentum that built up during the first two thirds of the turn. It's also easier to maintain balance when the speeds are more constant. Give your body to gravity during the last third of the turn for a change and I'm sure you won't go back to leap frogging type moves for round turns.





Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ster View Post

 

Well said

This fits right in with what I was trying to say in part of my earlier post.  "This is why it is important to get energy into the ski high in the turn, so that energy can be released early & aid in transitioning to the new turn."

 

Thanks,

JF



 Got it!

post #63 of 85

I think we need to look at objectives again. In the first part of a turn we're setting up for the strong turning efforts that will happen in the middle third of the turn. Over do things in the first part of the turn and it's no different that over doing them in any other part of the turn. Patience, disciplined actions, and good timing are the keys to producing a good turn. I mentioned setting yourself up for success in the next turn by doing so in the finishing phase of the current turn. The same goes for the first phase of the new turn, you're setting yourself up for success in the control phase control phase where the strongest turning efforts will occur. Impatience leads so many skier to tactical and technical errors because they make hasty moves before they are prepared to do so.

post #64 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

BigE is back......



From the volume of tdk6 posts, I see that tdk6 is still shouting down any and all posters that disagree with him.

 

SNAFU.  

 

I can go back to sleep now....

 

Have fun this winter.  You too tdk....

post #65 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingaround View Post

This request is a result of my question about skiing glass like ice on an earlier post. Someone said get onto my edges sooner and therefore avoid applying loads of pressure at the end of the turn.

I haven't been in a clinic in years and would love some reminders of exercises to use to get on an edge earlier in the turn.

Thanks

Bryn


Lots of theory above, some exercises that I find rather dubious, but little about how to actually accomplish what you want to do.  If your skis are on their inside (of the turn) edges going across a hill, it simply means that your body is downhill from the skis.  Right?  Can't be anything else.  If you're back on your heels, you can't get there.  If you're actually centered over your feet, you might get there.  If you're forward on your skis, it is easy.  So...

 

As you ski through the transition (look at Ted's pic where he's crossing the first "e" in LeMaster) and your skis are light on the snow, strongly pull both feet back behind you.  The steeper the hill the stronger you must pull them back.  This will give the highly desired ankle flexion using the strong hamstring muscles.  As strongly as you think you're pulling the feet back, you're probably just getting centered over your skis on this steep hill.  You have to pull very strongly back and pull early to get on the tips.  If your head seems to be the leading your way down the hill, you're doing good.  As you do this roll the feet on to their new edges.  I choose to get them on edge by rolling my inside ankle out toward the snow.  That impels the body toward the inside of the turn.  As the body counters and angulates and the ankle pressure continues the body remains correctly set up through the turn.

 

You need the front half of the inside edge of your outside ski engaged in the snow as early as possible in the turn.  The first third of your turn is your speed control.  With that fat tip of the ski pulling you around you control the turn radius and your speed.  You aren't carving...that would be racer speed.  You are using the ski the way it was designed to pull you into and through the turn.  The tips are pulling you around the turn while the skis are simultaneously brushing somewhat sideways across the snow scrubbing off speed.  You don't turn your skis.  The skis turn you.

post #66 of 85

Dubious? Sorry you think so SSG. We've spent the better part of this thread exposing the flaws in the "always pull the feet back" mantra. Said simply if you find yourself needing to climb back aboard the ski by consistently playing leap frog, you are using a work around solution but not addressing the deeper issue of poor balance. Not to mention if you are leaning against the boot (fore or aft) you are not any more balanced than you would be leaning against a wall as you stand.

 

 

Added in edit mode:

The age old advice of levering forward has been a suggested cure all as far back as I can remember. Pressing into the tongues of the boots in turn drives down the tips. So what do you suppose changes when the tip is closer to the pivot point? A shorter level arm means less mechanical advantage for the tip. Working a lever in reverse (applying force to the short arm of the lever) is what we do when we press into the tongues of the boots. Add the torsionally stiffer design of today's skis to this and it should be pretty obvious that it's simply easier to pressure the tip and get the edge of the tip to engage. Said another way it doesn't take as much tongue pressure to create the same amount of tip engagement.

 

While we're at it lets also include binding height and plates. Getting the boot as close to the topskin as possible was the norm back then. Along came Teflon pads and binding riser plates that raised the boot and created a longer lever arm on that side of the leverage equation. In short the longer lever arm (moment of inertia) increases the mechanical advantage of the boots and reduces the amount of force needed to create the same amount of downforce (pressure) at the tip. 

 

All of which leads right back to the same conclusion we see in the first paragraph (strong tongue pressure isn't necessary to engage the ski tip).

 

 


Edited by justanotherskipro - 11/5/10 at 4:31pm
post #67 of 85

Well, I can't figure out any benefit from double poling.  I've tried it and gained no insight into why anybody would feel that it offers any benefit.  It might work for some, but I'm dubious.  Some of the other exercises listed above also leave me in doubt.

 

How much pressure anyone chooses to put on their ski tips is their own preference.  I agree fully that modern skis require less tip pressure than old skis, but they still require some tip pressure.  When I see a student's ski tips flapping on the snow (floppy rental skis), I know that they aren't getting the tips engaged at all.  Some young women are so flexible that they can put their shins against the boot tongues and still weight their heels (sorry for the divergence).  If you can always remain perfectly centered, and you like how your skis perform that way, great.  Many of us find that our skis like to jet out in front of us as we finish a turn.  The easy way to get recentered is put pull them back to the position we like.  The hard way to get recentered is to try to flex the ankle and pull the body out over the skis.  If I have a choice, I'll use big muscles (hamstrings) instead of little muscles in the feet and ankles for dorsiflexion.  Also, I don't want my feet tensed as some suggest raising the toes or instep inside the boots.  And, as we all agree, the steeper the pitch the more the feet need to be behind us to be centered--right, same angle from sole to shin, steeper pitch to the skis so steeper pitch to the shin et al.  I've shown many very good skiers the pull back move, and every one has liked it.  If you don't, fine, and we'll both offer suggested movements to posters.  They can try anything and use what works for them.

post #68 of 85

My point SSG, is that when the skis jet forward it can be either an intentional outcome, or an unintentional outcome. If it's the latter then I would question how solid your balance is during the last third of the turn. I also don't agree with the conclusion that the skis jetting automatically means we need to strongly thrust the body towards the apex of the next turn, or slow down the feet by pulling them back. Barnes, Sears, Glieb and myself were working on a reaching slalom turn that features the feet passing the body in a jetting manner but instead of trying to catch and pass them, we simply allow the body to continue on its separate path and meet the feet at the beginning of the control phase. It also didn't include touching the boot tongues through that first third of the turn. The resulting turn could be either skidded, or carved with no tip pressure being added. Bob and I also worked on this on the steepest terrain we could find over at Arapahoe Basin. So I can tell you from personal experience that your two suggested options don't represent all the possible options, in gates, on regular recreational terrain, or on extreme steeps.

 

Beyond that you've offered some myths that when we look at in more detail simply don't hold up. Without getting into too much detail I want to address a few of them and offer some real world examples of why those myths simply don't hold up.

1.  The edge release on moderate terrain and above doesn't occur when the skis get flat to the snow and we don't need to be perpendicular to the snow at the beginning of the turn. Why? Well it's actually pretty simple, the new turn begins when we change direction not when the skis get flat to the snow, or when the new edges are re-engaged. The steeper the slope the further from flat that critical release angle becomes. Want proof? O.K. Ever sideslip a steep run? Patrollers do all the time. In fact it was part of my training curriculum when I was a patrol trainer. It's intrinsic to learning how to run a tail rope properly. The idea is also very much something we see even at the very basic level, a gliding wedge uses skidding released edges, so do garlands. It's also something you will see at the very highest level of the sport when you watch all the coaches sideslipping down next to the injected WC race courses. Flatten the skis completely and you risk catching the downhill edge. That's also the greatest risk we see when teaching pivot slips to our cert candidates. Catch that edge and you're on your face in a flash. In short the advice that you need to get the skis flat to release them and we need to re-establish an engaged edge early to cause the turn to start just doesn't hold water.

2. The first third of the turn is your speed control ignores the effect of line on speed. Slow line fast and the racers version that's called a round high "conservative" line don't include speed scrubbing in the first third of the turn, yet they still offer plenty of speed control. That's why it's so important to finish your turns. Which IMO is the biggest culprit we see on moderate terrain and above. Said another way, if your having trouble controlling your speed after a few turns, it's more likely you aren't completing your turns than it is you aren't scrubbing off enough speed in the initiation phase.

3. Dorsi flexing the ankles by pulling back with the hamstrings ignore the fact that the hamstring is on the wrong side of the leg to dorsi flex the ankle. What you are actually doing from a squatted position is opening the hip joint by engaging the glutes and the hamstrings. Unless you're proposing closing the knee joint beyond 90 degrees and squatting lower on the skis. Considering the very real possibility of blowing out your ACL, I would never suggest doing that. Especially during a lesson where safety is our first concern.

 

So SSG, I know your a good skier and have taught a lot of people to ski better and I respect your opinions but in this case suggesting pulling the feet back as universally appropriate advice doesn't hold up any more than some of the other myths you've posted in your last two posts. To be honest I used to view thing very similar to you until my mentors made me look at things a lot closer. I think it would be a lot of fun to ski together and play with these ideas since I suspect like me the proof would have to be demonstrated on the snow before you would accept these ideas as valid.

Ski well my friend,

JASP / Don Duran

Alpine Staff Trainer

Keystone Ski and Ride School


Edited by justanotherskipro - 11/7/10 at 9:59pm
post #69 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post


1.  The edge release on moderate terrain and above doesn't occur when the skis get flat to the snow and we don't need to be perpendicular to the snow at the beginning of the turn. Why? Well it's actually pretty simple, the new turn begins when we change direction not when the skis get flat to the snow, or when the new edges are re-engaged. The steeper the slope the further from flat that critical release angle becomes. Want proof? O.K. Ever sideslip a steep run? Patrollers do all the time. In fact it was part of my training curriculum when I was a patrol trainer. It's intrinsic to learning how to run a tail rope properly. The idea is also very much something we see even at the very basic level, a gliding wedge uses skidding released edges, so do garlands. It's also something you will see at the very highest level of the sport when you watch all the coaches sideslipping down next to the injected WC race courses. Flatten the skis completely and you risk catching the downhill edge. That's also the greatest risk we see when teaching pivot slips to our cert candidates. Catch that edge and you're on your face in a flash. In short the advice that you need to get the skis flat to release them and we need to re-establish an engaged edge early to cause the turn to start just doesn't hold water.


Alpine Staff Trainer

Keystone Ski and Ride School

I guess you are not talking about arc to arc skiing here. (you know where the line from inside edge of the old turn becomes a line offset by one ski width of the new inside edge like so _____ 



 
post #70 of 85

To me it sounds like the guy who gave the OP the advice to get on his edges earlier was trying to suggest the OP start carving insted of skidding his turns. So this is nothing more than a thread on how to carve. Whats different on carving on ice in ref to carving on soft snow is that there is no place for brushing. Its eahter carving or its sideways slipping. And there is much less friction. Meaning that you are going much faster. This is what we do on a race course.

 

Pulling the feet back discussion

post #71 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Whats different on carving on ice in ref to carving on soft snow is that there is no place for brushing. Its eahter carving or its sideways slipping.



 I don't understand what you mean with this statement. What is your definition of sideways slipping, sliding perpendicularly to the ski?

post #72 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

 I don't understand what you mean with this statement. What is your definition of sideways slipping, sliding perpendicularly to the ski?



We are slipping into the definition djungle again...

post #73 of 85

So what type of turn are we talking about Ghost? Round relatively slow carves on steep terrain might not be where we would develop enough forward momentum to carry us across the hill with no elevation loss. It might be minimal but the skis are going to release while still on edge so some slippage is likely. Especially as the slope angle increases. Turning up the hill slightly might make this doable though. Then again if we're talking exact terms I bet the actual downhill displacement of say a half a ski width would be hard to see unless we actually went out and measured it. That's the problem with the idea of the track needing to be exactly one ski width apart. Same goes for the uphill idea I just mentioned. A2A 180 degree turns, not 179, not 181 and no downhill displacement? It very doable on say a twenty five degree slope but add ten degrees and that gets to be a pretty tall order.

 

post #74 of 85

I thought we were talking about arc-2-arc turns on a  less than 25 degree slope given that the OP likely has a typical carving radius and speed will build up too high for his turn radius at steeper pitches or long pitches at that slope on hardpack (not that arc-2-arc railroad track turns couldn't be done on steep slopes given a big enough turn radius).  

 

What I usually do is release my cm, but have the skis continue to travel in the direction they are pointing so there is no slipping down the hill before or at transition, just some redirection (by the new shape of the curved ski interacting with the snow) down the hill after the ski is tipped the other way and the new edge is engaged.  There is no catching an edge when the ski is moving parallel to the edge.

 

Clearly you are describing something else, hence my question above.  You  seem to be describing turns that are "steered" where the ski is released, but still pressured and does some sideways brushing/scraping/skidding towards the outside of the old turn before getting tipped onto it's new edge, are you also steering the skis into their new turn and then brushing some more before engaging them in the new turn? 

post #75 of 85

No Ghost, The original thread described a steeper slope and I'm not describing a blended turn. Just making a comment about the exactness of the situation you described. absolutely no downward displacement and no slippage in A2A turns. Both are myths, even if it's just because the snow displaces under load. The fact that we leave tracks / trenches is evidence of this. If you have outward fleeing forces our forward momentum can help us minimize that but if you actually stopped and walked back up the hill to measure that track, I strongly suspect during the momentary neutral phase there would be some slippage even when we have forward momentum. Why, well there still are some outward fleeing forces and the skis are still turning so it's hard to imagine releasing the skis wouldn't make that outcome a given. Not a huge amount but that isn't what you described with the no slippage comment. Then again if you put a delay move like a slight traverse between your arcs that is more doable but then the turns aren't really A2A's at that point if we do that. So as much as we get seduced by the theory, I'm questioning if in the real world that actually occurs. Close isn't exact enough to use words like absolutely, or none. That's all.

Beyond that I find it interesting that WC level skiers don't always lock the skis onto edge that quickly. It might be because they don't worry about that very much during a race. Or it could be that they ski a much more direct line. All I know is even on ice we can linger a bit longer without negatively affecting the rest of the turn. Just like they do. IMO that's the ultimate lesson in their skiing. So my question is why does Arc 2 Arc keeps surfacing as some sort of ideal. Think about it, in the race world it's known as a conservative round line and when racers exhibit mastery of that tactic they move on to more direct lines. That usually happens somwhere around J3 or J2. Which should tell you about where the A2A tactic fits in the greater world of ski technique and ski racing. It's a milestone but certainly not more than that.

post #76 of 85

"This request is a result of my question about skiing glass like ice on an earlier post. Someone said get onto my edges sooner and therefore avoid applying loads of pressure at the end of the turn.

I haven't been in a clinic in years and would love some reminders of exercises to use to get on an edge earlier in the turn.

Thanks

Bryn"

 

Doesn't say anything about 30 degree + slopes.

 

So there is always minute slippage due to snow compressing.   I'm not going to argue about tenths of a milimeter.  So what? 

 

Racers have to go around gates positioned to test their ability to make a turn at speed that's tighter than half the field can make at top speed.  Free skiing doesn't have that.

 

Forces on skis are controlled by the skier, if you can't make your ski move in the direction it's pointed and only that direction, or any other direction of your choice when on a slope then you are not in control of your skis.  There's no reason for your skis to go sideways during the transition than there is for them to go sideways at the apex, if you are in control of them.  Sure, you could let them slide down the hill, or you could slide them UP the hill, or you could just keep them going straight ahead at whatever angle to the fall line you care to use.  It's up to you.

post #77 of 85

Hello! the other thread described the situation in more detail. short round turns at slower speed. Not GS A2A thirty meter turns. I agree that not much slippage occurs in those bigger turns and it's no big deal if a slight amount of slippage occurs. I'm just suggesting that we avoid the absolutes that are more theoretical than practical. As far as racers, well they carve and make round turns better than most skiers. It's also worth noticing that they can make precise round, eliptical, comma shaped and even stivotted turns at will.  The more direct their line the less like an A2A constant radius turn they use. So at times they establish a very early edge but at others they don't. We can learn from that example.

post #78 of 85

I thought we were talking about this thread.  Most of this thread is suggestive of carving technique for early edge engagement and arc-2-arc edge locked turns all the way.  Do you have a link to the "other thread"? 

 

Even at slow speeds, I can make you skis go whichever way I want them to go.  This ability helps prevent catching edges by not having my skis moving in inappropriate direction in any given situation.   My arc-2-arc tracks do look like this _ --,  but if doing speed control turns they don't. 

 

I agree that if you're going slowly on a 30+ degree slope, you are not doing arc-2-arc turns, unless it's a very short slope.

post #79 of 85

Skiingaround started two threads, one about ice advice and this one. The clinic with their trainer was described there. I know your background which is why I am comfortable asking you to address the following. So far we've sort of looked at this through the lens of a particle instead of the complex combination of levers in the legs and pelvis. We have the body and pelvis moving off axis relative to the skis and the feet moving off axis relative to the body. What they both have in common is the leg joints which are articulating to keep these two parts connected. Fore / aft, left / right, etc.

To change the trajectory of either the feet or body we establish edge purchase and apply force (active or passive doesn't matter) to the snow. This, in turn, causes the snow to react and resist that force after some initial displacement. If we were a rock releasing the edges would cause us to immediately return to linear motion. The problem in that is that hinges in the body and the fact that the feet and the body are traveling along different paths comes into play. Although without edge purchase I wonder, would the body begin following the feet along their path, or would the feet begin following the body's path.  I think we both would agree the latter is what will happen. That outcome means no matter how fast we snap the skis over to the new edge there is a brief moment where the feet would follow the body's path. We can certainly extend and steer the legs so the across the hill path of the feet is maintained as much as possible but there still is that nagging moment when the feet will move with the body. If we allow the body to be deflected a bit more across the hill we can minimize this effect but that usually introduces a slight traverse (less than a ski length) before the new edges can be engaged. (remember were talking about medium to small turns hre). I've walked up and studied both my tracks and those of my students. I didn't take out a ruler but from my recollection a ski and a half width is just about as small as I remember seeing those medium turns. It would be fun to actually play with the concept on the snow but until we open more terrain I'm not walking up the hill to study my tracks. Especially not in uniform since that clothing seems to have a magnetic attraction quality.

So I think we're in agreement about long turns where the body's momentum is closer to on axis making the no slipping during the edge change more possible. Are we in agreement about short to medium turns like Skiingaround referenced from the ice advice thread? 

post #80 of 85

JASP,

That's a lot to digest after a long day's work. 

 

Too many variables, (and I'm going on memory from last season). 

 

How steep, how fast, how far out of the fall line do the skis turn, when do you release the cm, when do you transition the skis, how much upper-lower body separation, how much cross over versus how much cross under, how much divergence....

 

I'm reminded of the three blind men and the elephant.  Instead of reporting on different parts of the beast, I think we are describing different areas of the multi-variable space from our experience.  In some domains/ranges of the above variables one thing will happen and in another another thing happens, e.g. if your skis don't deviate much from the fall line not much slip between edges, but if you use a cross over technique and get you skis well out of the fall line you can have more slip, but if you have lots of divergence between skis and cm and run the skis uphill with exaggerated cross-under and loose legs you can get back to no slip between edges. 

post #81 of 85

Havea good sleep. My point is only that as much as we try to create no slippage it will occur so all we can do is minimize it. In the context of the steep slope skiingaround mentioned A2A isn't as doable as the work arounds like some scrubbing early and a well executed finsh with no abbreviation.

post #82 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

if you have lots of divergence between skis and cm and run the skis uphill with exaggerated cross-under and loose legs you can get back to no slip between edges. 


Sounds like a case where you would have slip to me. In fact I think that when you use agressive retraction the reason is often that you want a fast transition in order to keep the turn radius small. Since this is the goal it is ok, and even desireable, with slip. You probably have lot of anticipation in the turn aswell, which will automatically spring the skis back in the CoM direction when you unload.

 

I think the biggest factor if you slip or not is how much you unload the skis combined with amount of anticipation. For example, If you use ILE with good pressure throughout the transition you will not slip (or at least you can avoid it), but on the other hand it would be difficult to make tight turns.
 

post #83 of 85

Nope, it so much simpler than that. The edge change occurs as the skis roll off of one set of edges and onto the other. Unless you do a wedge, or step turn transition of course. That near flat phase doesn't go away because we do a retraction move, or an extention one. Like Ghost pointed out if we are moving with the skis across the hill we can minimize the down the hill movement of the skis. I'm surprized we're having so much trouble with that minor point. Quite frankly I think the alway on edge crowd need to stop and see what's occuring on the injected race courses around the world cup. After all isn't that where they get all the photos of a racer moving the control phase into the first part of the turn and suggesting we all need to work the ski that hard in that first third of the turn. You don't see one type of transition any more than you see one turn type. The course setter wouldn't be doing their job if they set up courses that way. The same hold true for the ski slopes we ski. Variables in the slope, snow and weather force us to be more versatile than that just to negotiate whatever conditions we encounter on the mountain. It's quite common at larger resorts to have different weather and snow conditions at different elevations, so just like the racers we need a wider set of skills and ownership of more than one turn type to ski the entire mountain. Get to you edges earlier? How about get set up better to engage the new edges? When you do that the amount of delay between turns becomes a tactical variable just like we see among the skiers at the top of the sport. Below that we see all the misguided advice to only use one turn type, one transition type, and one skiing style. The world of skiing is so much wider when you lose that one way all the time attitude. 

post #84 of 85



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Nope, it so much simpler than that. The edge change occurs as the skis roll off of one set of edges and onto the other. Unless you do a wedge, or step turn transition of course. That near flat phase doesn't go away because we do a retraction move, or an extention one. Like Ghost pointed out if we are moving with the skis across the hill we can minimize the down the hill movement of the skis. I'm surprized we're having so much trouble with that minor point. Quite frankly I think the alway on edge crowd need to stop and see what's occuring on the injected race courses around the world cup. After all isn't that where they get all the photos of a racer moving the control phase into the first part of the turn and suggesting we all need to work the ski that hard in that first third of the turn. You don't see one type of transition any more than you see one turn type. The course setter wouldn't be doing their job if they set up courses that way. The same hold true for the ski slopes we ski. Variables in the slope, snow and weather force us to be more versatile than that just to negotiate whatever conditions we encounter on the mountain. It's quite common at larger resorts to have different weather and snow conditions at different elevations, so just like the racers we need a wider set of skills and ownership of more than one turn type to ski the entire mountain. Get to you edges earlier? How about get set up better to engage the new edges? When you do that the amount of delay between turns becomes a tactical variable just like we see among the skiers at the top of the sport. Below that we see all the misguided advice to only use one turn type, one transition type, and one skiing style. The world of skiing is so much wider when you lose that one way all the time attitude. 



Nope to what?

 

Ghost did not say "moving with the skis across the hill", he said divergence between CM and the skis, and that's why I reacted.

Sure the flat phase does not go away, I was just trying to point out that when you have time for a transition where the CM follows the skis it is easier to ski A2A without discontinuities. When you don't have time (e.g. tight gates in racing, short radius turns for freeskiers) you must project the CM more down the hill.

 

I coach racers and I, like you, am a strong believer that you must master all kinds of turns and transitions. I find it puzzling the amount of discussions on epic arguing one turn type's superiority over the other can go on for ever. Active vs passive weight transfer is a common recurring example of that.

 

I agree with the setup, and I view a turn from one apex to the next, becuase it is in the apex, at the latest, that you have to setup for the next turn.

post #85 of 85

Jamt, I couldn't agree more about when the set up for the next turn begins. I was saying nope to the idea of unloading the ski during the edge change. I don't see any need to unweight / unload the skis during the edge change. I typically don't teach much edge set transition stuff anymore. It's good to own that move but in the context of smallish turns on steep ice I probably wouldn't use that tactic.

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