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Feeling better!

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
Hello group!
I hope I have this in the right group!! I posted in the equipment group, but now I think I made a mistake.
: Anyway,
My son and I went out yesterday to Jack Frost in Pa. yesterday and everything was opposite from my 'bad first day' post.
My new boots were wonderful, and my exercise routine must have paid off as well, since we skied from 9 to 1:30 nonstop.
I do have a couple of questions:

My new boots were warm and comfortable even in the balmy 8 degrees.
When do I decide I need footbeds?
Do footbeds cause one to do less 'grabbing of the sole' or flexing of the toes to generate turning force?
I had only one 'sore point' on my feet, which was a nickel sized area on the inside of my feet just under my ankle. I felt pressure there as the day got longer, but it was tolerable.
My thighs and calves are sore. Does any of that have anything to do with boot fit?
However, I have none of the abrasive skin soreness or anything else, which leads me to believe the boots are doing the trick.
Thank you all in advance!
Chas
[img]smile.gif[/img]
post #2 of 24
I would not do a thing to your boots for about three to five more days.

As to the soreness. I have the feeling many skiers are sore because they spend the bulk of their time "braced" against the hill, trying to NOT go as opposed to GOING somewhere. Think in terms of shaping your turns in such a manner that every turn is a time to speed up as opposed to slowing down. Pick the right line, where turns are finished with a slight uphill movement. Think in terms of GOING where your ski tips are pointed as opposed to NOT GOING in the direction your skis are sliding. It's the isometric contraction of the skidding outside/downhill leg on PA ice that may well cause the soreness.

Consider taking a lesson from a level III PSIA cert.

The "sore spot" may be a problem. I built a "doughnut" out of semi hard plastic, affixed it to my liner (on the liner exterior between the liner and shell) on the medial side of my ankle bone, and this provides a heel cup for my ankle. It works wonders.

An attendee from a PSIA-RM workshop relayed a story that Bode Miller eschews footbeds and passed along a quote that Miller seeks "chaos" in his boots. I took that to mean his foot is sloshing around, however, who knows what was meant. Perhaps he is so jammed in a shell it's a reference to pain!

If you stayed warm on a PA day when it was eight degrees, and are a recreational (less than 20 days per annum) skier, I'd skip the footbeds.

I'd save the money for your utility bill!

[ January 26, 2004, 06:34 AM: Message edited by: Rusty Guy ]
post #3 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by Rusty Guy:
It's the isometric contraction of the skidding outside/downhill leg on PA ice that may well cause the soreness.

HEY NOW, we don't have ice in PA! Who told you such lies? [img]tongue.gif[/img]
post #4 of 24
You indicate that you ski three to five days a year. I spend the first three days a year "killing" all of the nerve and sensitive cells in my feet and shins.

Camelback was in the minus category at 8:00 in the morning ... at the top.

That area under the ankle on the inside? If you mean the arch portion of your foot, a foot bed may help. The cheaper $79 dollar variety may do the trick.

[ January 26, 2004, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: yuki ]
post #5 of 24
Thread Starter 
Sorry TaylorMatt, I cannot tell a lie. There was ice on the steeps this saturday at Jack Frost. You don't want to know who I blame for uncovering it tho'.

Rusty Guy, I appreciate all you said, and bracing against the downhill ski is an old fault of mine. I did 'feel' a proper turn when I relaxed a little and tried to let the skis do the work. Where you mention finishing with an uphill movement, if I do that, don't I lose the momentum needed to set the new down hill ski on its inside edge at the top of the new turn?

Yuki, the sore area is not the arch. Its the side of the foot just below the ankle bone.

Thanks gang!!
chas
post #6 of 24
Sorry Chas, I still can't believe it...ice in PA??!?!? Nahhh

Anyway, ski the boots a few more days. The soreness in the ankle area can be caused by an ill fit in the ankle area of the boot. It causes a pressure point on, under or above the ankle bone. Any decent bootfitter can clear that up easily. I would ski the boots more and really break them in before adjusting though.
post #7 of 24
chasboy, the ankle problem is likely caused by pronation and possible oversize boots. As the boots break in the problem should get worse. Foot beds would likely correct this if they are made right.
post #8 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by chasboy:
Where you mention finishing with an uphill movement, if I do that, don't I lose the momentum needed to set the new down hill ski on its inside edge at the top of the new turn?
Thanks gang!!
chas[/QB]
I guess the correct answer is you betcha.

I tell my students that IF they ever feel a loss of control it was due to their prior turn. It wasn't "finished".

Turning is a mechanism to pick a "line".

Pick the correct line and YOU chose the speed you travel.

I will say I am just now learning how to "finish" turns. It is just a difficult to do on steeps,bumps, and flats. Done well skiing is considerably easier, always less taxing, and free from muscle soreness!

Robin May once said in a clinic....."think circles and movement!" So.....complete as much of the circle as YOU wish and maintain whatever momentum you care to carry into your next turn.

Gotta go teach
post #9 of 24
It can even be fun to complete the turn with your skis facing beyond uphill, then release them, let them continue forward and slide down to begin a new "turn", effectively doing a full 360. Hard to describe in words. You need a lot of speed in the belly of the turn (carved) to make it all the way around.
post #10 of 24
Thread Starter 
Steve, I am sure I felt that quality when I first tried shaped skis a few years ago. I rode the sidecut till I actually faced about 1:00. Very neat feeling.
So, am I hearing that by releasing my skis (flattening to the snow), they will turn downhill and I can start the new turn? In other words, I don't need a good head of steam to continue a turn where I made a great reduction in speed?
Chas
post #11 of 24
chasboy, yep! In fact, try Rusty Guy's "static release" to prove this to yourself:

</font>
  • Stand edged across the hill.</font>
  • Make sure your stance/alignment is right so your weight is comfortably in the middle of your foot.</font>
  • Relax the downhill ankle and allow the skis to flatten.</font>
  • If your balance is correct, your tips will float downhill ahead of the rest of your skis.</font>
  • Use rotation to complete the turn. Then, stop and do it again in the other direction.</font>
After you've become accustomed to this, you'll find the transition in the turns to come much easier.
I have personally found that playing with inside leg extension in transition also provides some powerful carving.
post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by ssh:[*]Use rotation to complete the turn. Then, stop and do it again in the other direction.[/list]
Thanks for attributing the drill to me, however, it's merely a spinoff of something Bob Barnes learned from the Mahre's.

It is a great description Steve, however, use of the word "rotation" to desribe the steering of the inside leg concerns me.

It is no more complex than taking Bob's mantra of "right tip right to go right and left tip left to go left and making it a sequential movement. Flatten the new inside ski from a dead stop, allow the skis AND SKIER to fall downhill and turn the ski you first flattened back uphill.....the other ski will join the party.

The issue I have with even describing the finishing "movement" with the inside foot as "rotation" is that the movement is actually a blend of tipping, turning, and flexion.

It isn't merely rotation.
post #13 of 24
Again the ski boot will not fix your movement patterns. If sore muscles are the problem examine stance and alignment. There is a reason for my continual bring this up. In you original posting your legs were sore and we discovered your crouched stance was the cupric. Then there was problems with pressure control and dorsi flexion was suggested. Try taking a lesson and you will be amazed at the changes from you seventies skiing compared to modern skiing. The boot is a tool and if not used properly will not fix all other problems. I am not being harsh and am impressed with your commitment, but some guidance would help you more than trying to understand hundreds of suggestions when no one has observed your skiing. I am sure that rotary push off is your turning force and until you change, all of the boots, footbeds, skis, next new fangled inventions will not really help. Again the ability to steer with legs is paramount and this is where your path should lie.
post #14 of 24
Thread Starter 
Larry, Please let me clarify that my legs were not as sore as after the first day skiing. I am sure you are right about most of what you say. I don't know what dorsi flexion is, so I can't address that. I do think that my calf soreness comes from pushing and trying to force the skis around and trying to 'hang on' when I get into trouble. Maybe I should stick to the blues until I really 'get it'. I purchased Harald Harb's book and video, and I'm trying to use that as a tool for improvement. I have seen lots of 'discussion' about his methods on the forums, but I think I need to try something and stick with it. I did make great progress last week on 'feeling' what a proper parallel turn should be like, and I linked turns better, more effectively, and with less effort than I ever have before. Naturally the harder the slope, the more I reverted to previous habits. However, I must say that as soon as I got out of the 'defensive' position after making it thru the hairy parts, I immediately went back to making the changes. I think my biggest problem, which I have seen from reading Harb's book is my fear of committing to the new downhill ski at a time that in my defensive need to control speed, doesn't make sense to me, yet when I do it right, my mechanical mind loves the feeling of using the ski's shape rather than skidding like I used to do with my rear brake Schwin bike on gravel. Thank you for your help, and I appreciate all input.
[img]smile.gif[/img] chas
post #15 of 24
I have followed your postings and read them most interestingly. I am sure that in Harrods book skeletal alignment is covered. Basically this is standing with the bones stacked. Pelvis looking forward, and above the ankle joint. The shoulders should fall into a vertical line also. Elbows slightly forward. This will allow the femur (thigh Bone) to be able to rotate in the hip sockets. This is turning your legs. Very few skiers do this and is real apparent in the steeps and in the bumps. Dorsi flexion is bending the ankle by pulling the big toes to the top of the ski boot grounding the arch in the snow and devolping shin contact. If you walk in a circle you will notice that your inside foot does this at the initiation of every step. Try this in your skiing. I believe that this is called the phantom turn in Heralds book (I am not to sure of his terms but believe they are very similar to PSIA). What my point is for you to use bio mechanics in your skiing to make everything easier. Try a turn an green terrain in balanced stance by tipping your inside boots cuff in the direction you want to go You will see the foot tip, femur turn and the skis will go in that direction. Becarfull to tip hip or shoulder. Repeat after me LEANING STINKS! As a rule balance over feet through the turn and try not to bank or lean up hill. This is where the pulling of the toes up will really help you. Let me know!!!!
post #16 of 24
oN MY LAST POST THER IS AN ERROR PLEASE DIREGARD AND i AM SORRY

I have followed your postings and read them most interestingly. I am sure that in Harrods book skeletal alignment is covered. Basically this is standing with e the bones stacked. Pelvis looking forward, and above the ankle joint. The shoulders should fall into a vertical line also. Elbows slightly forward. This will allow the femur (thigh Bone) to be able to rotate in the hip sockets. This is turning your legs. Very few skiers do this and is real apparent in the steeps and in the bumps. Dorsi flexion is bending the ankle by pulling the big toes to the top of the ski boot grounding the arch in the snow and devolping shin contact. If you walk in a circle you will notice that your inside foot does this at the initiation of every step. Try this in your skiing. I believe that this is called the phantom turn in Heralds book (I am not to sure of his terms but believe they are very similar to PSIA). What my point is for you to use bio mechanics in your skiing to make everything easier. Try a turn an green terrain in balanced stance by tipping your inside boots cuff in the direction you want to go You will see the foot tip, femur turn and the skis will go in that direction. Becarfull NOT to tip hip or shoulder at start of turn. Repeat after me LEANING STINKS! As a rule balance over feet through the turn and try not to bank or lean up hill. This is where the pulling of the toes up will really help you. Let me know!!!!
post #17 of 24
Thread Starter 
Larry, unless 'the rains come' I will be skiing monday.Thank your for your input. I believe Harb's term is 'kinetic link' as you mention stacking the body parts. You are right about walking in a circle!!
I am not sure what you mean about the turn on green terrain. : Am I facing straight downhill? If I am say facing the left side of the slope where I have a choice of turning right, or becoming intimate with a tree, which foot would I tip, and which edge am I looking to go onto on THAT foot?
Chas
post #18 of 24
tip the right to go right, tip the left to left. Same as walking! Progresdsive not just slamming the edge on at start, but constant movement.
post #19 of 24
Thread Starter 
Gotcha.
Sounds similar to Harb's tipping to the little toe edge.
I will try it monday.
Chas
post #20 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Larry W:
tip the right to go right, tip the left to left. Same as walking! Progresdsive not just slamming the edge on at start, but constant movement.
Larry, you were right. Now my other problems...(check my new post)
post #21 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by nolo:
I learned the exercise of initiating a turn from a standstill at a mid-90s
That's how I was taught wayyyyy back Pre 80's, day three on skis I think. It got buried under tons off other stuff very quickly though, like avoiding things and stopping!
post #22 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by ssh:


</font>
  • Stand edged across the hill.</font>
  • Make sure your stance/alignment is right so your weight is comfortably in the middle of your foot.</font>
  • Relax the downhill ankle and allow the skis to flatten.</font>
  • If your balance is correct, your tips will float downhill ahead of the rest of your skis.</font>
  • Use rotation to complete the turn. Then, stop and do it again in the other direction.</font>
I thought that when I did this, I just leaned forward a little, which encouraged the tips to move downhill first.

Last week an instructor convinced me that when I flatten the skis, I am actually rotating the tips downhill also.

To prove it, he had me side-slipping down the hill while leaning forward. This showed me that, since the tips didn't lead down the hill, that I MUST be providing some rotary to pull the tips around.

It's always shocking when something I "know" turns out to be untrue!
post #23 of 24
lurking bear, that's interesting. I am used to sideslipping down the hill and using a change in pressure to change which end of my skis slides faster. Of course, I can counter that with rotation, but I'm pretty sure that moving pressure forward causes the tips to slip faster and moving it back causes the tails to slip faster.

I do not have access to any reference materials here at the cube, but I am pretty certain that is true.

Note: it may be that the instructor was helping you see that you have a tendancy to rotate this way. I see sideslipping as primarily a tipping exercise, so when we mix in the other skills (rotation and pressure and flexion/extension), we can certainly create an interesting mix of results.
post #24 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by ssh:
lurking bear, that's interesting. I am used to sideslipping down the hill and using a change in pressure to change which end of my skis slides faster. Of course, I can counter that with rotation, but I'm pretty sure that moving pressure forward causes the tips to slip faster and moving it back causes the tails to slip faster.

I do not have access to any reference materials here at the cube, but I am pretty certain that is true.

Note: it may be that the instructor was helping you see that you have a tendancy to rotate this way. I see sideslipping as primarily a tipping exercise, so when we mix in the other skills (rotation and pressure and flexion/extension), we can certainly create an interesting mix of results.
Actually, the instructor was saying the opposite.

He had been teaching in my group lesson to flatten the skis and use rotary to turn the tips into the fall line - I think what you call a static release. On the chairlift, I told him you don't need to use any rotary, that simply pressuring the tips will cause them to seek downhill.

When we got off the chairlift, he had me side slip while levering over the fronts of my skis, applying lots of pressure to the tips. I side slipped straight down, just like he said, unlike my experience. The tips didn't seek the fall line.

I suggest that we normally move our center of mass downhill while releasing as you said in the "pulling the rug out" thread. Either our body pulls the skis into the fall line, or the lateral movement causes some rotary force to be applied to the skis, I don't know which. I suspect it's the rotary, since that's what it feels like.

Or maybe, pressuring the tips will cause them to move downhill (although I can't think of WHY this would be true), and my instructor conned me into using a little backwards rotary to keep them side slipping downhill, but it seems like it would be hard to apply rotary while I'm levered out over my tips????

I have been using this static release for a couple of years and thought I knew it, but this instructor got me to question what I was actually doing (applying rotary? just pressuring the tips?) to the point that now I'm not sure.
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